True Israel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

As we continue to look into these highly important issues, can we summarize the viewpoints of believers concerning the body of Christ, the church, and Israel mainly into three groups;

1.) Body (church) only. Israel as a people, as a nation has been replaced by the body.

2.) Israel, and the body are the church, and they are melded into one, each having its proper function. The church represents a portion of the body, while Israel represents another portion.

3.) Israel, has a future unfulfilled role to play on the earth, whereas the church has a different role to fulfill, in the heavens.

Joel

Hi Joel!

I think this is an excellent idea. We need to focus on the basic definitions, or we may not know what we are talking about (literally!).

As for point 1: I don't think it is correct to say the church or the body of Christ "replaced" national Israel. The Church (Body) initially blossomed out of natural Israel. The first believers were all "of Israel" in the flesh. But since the New Covenant could only be entered by faith, as opposed to the Old Covenant which you could be born into in a fleshly sense, all unbelieving "branches" of natural Israel were "broken off" the Olive Tree, which is the True Vine, which is Jesus Christ.

It is extremely important to remember that it was the Gentiles - not the "Church" - that was grafted into the Olive Tree. The "Church" was not grafted in. It began with believers who were the "natural branches" - natural sons of Abraham who believed the Gospel. Thus the "Church" can not "replace" natural Israel, since it grew out of natural Israel!

As for point 2: I do not see how we can say that Israel and the Body are two distinct and distinguishable "parts" of the Church. Is Christ divided? God forbid! In Christ, there is no Jew or Gentile. He has broken down the dividing wall, and made one new man.

As for point 3: That depends on a huge hermeneutical complex of associated ideas and assumptions that we are still debating in other threads. For example, theories about the rapture, theories about the millennial reign of Christ, theories about the meaning of the first and second resurrections, etc.,etc.,etc. ... we've all got a long way to go before point 3 could be settled!

Remember my brother, I honor you by speaking frankly.

God bless!

Richard

[joel]

As these threads converge, and begin to form a pattern, a healthy dose of frankness, as we honor each other, and thus, honor Him, will be vital.

Richard, I am particularly impressed by the diversity that is being displayed on the site........each member playing a part.......to Him be the glory!

Joel

[Rose]

Awhile back as I was studying the Bible, I discovered an interesting fact, that the only tribes mentioned in the New Testament, other than in Revelation 7: 5-8, where the 12 tribes are listed; is the tribe of Judah, which is the tribe of the lineage of Jesus; the tribe of Benjamin which is the tribe of Paul, and the tribe of Levi. It got me interested in doing a little research on the dividing of the tribes when Israel split into Southern and Northern Kingdoms.

A good place to start for me was in 1 Kings ( 11th book ) chapter 11. It tells me why God took the kingship away from Solomon, and allowed the Kingdom to be divided. 1 Kings 11: 3&4 ' And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines; and his wives turned away his heart. For it was so, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned his heart after other gods; and his heart was not loyal to the Lord his god, as was the heart of his father David.'

Then we see that God appeared to Solomon twice, and commanded him that he should not go after other gods; but he did not keep what the Lord had commanded. After that the Lord says in verse 11: ' Because you have done this and have not kept My covenant and My statutes, which I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom away from you and give it to your servant.' I know it was not by chance that this 11th verse happens to be in the 11th chapter of the 11th book, I just can’t quite put my finger on the significance of it yet.

Verse 26 tells us who the servant will be, ' Then Solomon’s servant, Jeroboam the son of Nebat, an Ephraimite from Zereda,……also rebelled against the king.'. Then God sent a prophet named Ahijah who met Jeroboam in a field and took his new garment and tore it into twelve pieces, and said to Jeroboam, 'Take for yourself ten pieces, for thus says the Lord, the god of Israel; ‘ Behold, I will tear the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon and will give ten tribes to you.'

Thus Solomon’s kingdom was split and continued on with his son Rehoboam and only one other tribe, the tribe of Benjamin, besides his own, plus the tribe of Levi which remained in Jerusalem where the temple was. 1 Kings 11: 66
' And to his son( Rehoboam ) I will give one tribe, that My servant David may always have a lamp before Me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen for Myself, to put My name there.'

As we know from history the Northern Kingdom of Israel which started with Jeroboam from the tribe of Ephraim, ended when the Assyrians conquered them in 720 BC, and the ten northern tribes were lost forever. In 1 Kings 13: 34, God said the house of Jeroboam, who was the first king of the northern kingdom, would be exterminated and destroyed from the face of the earth because of his sin.

Its very interesting to me that the ten tribes that were lost, are also 'lost' from being mentioned in the New Testament. Maybe someone else has some insights on this topic.

I look forward to your responses
Rose

[Stephen]

Hi Rose!

You've been doing some homework on the lost ten tribes, which is very encouraging. And you've brought to light some very interesting thoughts.

As you remark, the family of Jeroboam was indeed exterminated. Later on in 1 Kings 14, God announces that he is eventually going to boot all the ten tribes off the land He had given them, and scatter them beyond the river Euphrates (verse 15). (NB: The Hebrew word translated as 'scatter', in this and many subsequent verses relating to the exiled ten tribes, is 'zawrah', which we find as one of the roots in the name Zerubbabel). That is why we no longer meet the ten-tribed kingdom again in Scripture, although later prophets (Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel) still prophesy very specifically over them in their absence. They were destined to become lost, and to have the memory of them erased from under the heavens (Deuteronomy 32:26).

In NT times, the northern kingdom - i.e. Israel, Ephraim or Samaria as it is variously termed - was into its 8th century of being exiled and disqualified from the blessings promised as part of the first covenant. They had, by definition, become Gentiles by this time. For all this, they still had another 17 to 18 centuries worth of time to serve in their sentence of exile!

I believe these exiles were destined to become Protestant Christian nations, at least nominally. This is a very involved topic, as you might be able to tell from the various positions assumed in this thread. I am convinced beyond reasonable doubt that the USA, and a few related nations, are the ten tribes reconstituted. I believe that is why the church enjoys the freedoms that it does in these nations, and is able to evangelise the world in safety from them. This, to my mind, is part of the wonderful foresight of God. Until the USA and the UK came to ascendancy from the beginning of the 19th century, since which time the world has lived under Pax Britannica and then Pax Americana, the gospel had no chance of being preached to all nations.

You mention the date 720 BC as the completion of the exiling of the northern tribes by the Assyrians. This is correct. Isn't it remarkable that, when we count forward 2520 years from this date (2520 = 7 x 360 = seven times, as at Leviticus 26:28-45), we come to 1801. This is the year that the United Kingdom (the UK) was supplemented by the inclusion of Ireland, and the Union Jack (Jack = Jacob) flag achieved its current form. A few years later, and America made the miraculous Louisiana Purchase. At this very same point in history, France became a republic as the monarchy was phased out (from 1789), and the holy roman empire went out of existence (1806). Both had existed for the best part of a thousand years up till this point in time!

A final thought. There were a few stragglers from the northern kingdom who escaped and lived among Judah. In the NT, we read that Anna was of the tribe of Asher (Luke 2:36). However, the ten tribes were long gone by then, as the apocrypha and Josephus (as well as the leading Jewish sages) attest to.

Stephen

[Rose]

Thanks Stephen, for the reply

I'm going to think about the ideas you've presented

oops----I missed that one in Luke 2:36 glad you pointed it out!

Rose

[White]

Hi Rose & Stephen,
Good information concerning the 10 Lost Tribes - also called the House of Israel or Ephraim or the Northern Kingdom - But was it not in 722 BC that they were taken into captivity? The LORD has given me much revelation on that number and I always read from Jewish Sources that the year was 722 BC. Every once in a while I came across 721 BC as the year but never 720BC.

Then in a Living Bible version I was studying in 1996 I discovered that the Southern Tribes - that is Judah and Benjamin - were taken into captivity on 7/22/586 BC when the 1st Temple was destroyed (IIKings25:8ff). Anyway is there a way to verify that? I always felt that GOD would do something amazing like that - you know - match the numbers.

Then on 7/22/1939 the deportation of the Jews started in the II WW - You may verify that fact on aish.com - Fast of 17th of Tammuz - Five great Catastrophes occured in Jewish history on the 17th of Tammuz:
1- Moses broke the tablets at Mount Sinai
2- The daily offering in the First Temple were suspended during the siege of Jerusalem
3- Jerusalem's walls were breached, prior to the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE.
4- Prior to the Great Revolt, the Roman general Apostamos burned a Torah scroll
5- An idolatrous image was placed in the Sanctuary of the Holy Temple - blashemy and desecration

The fast of Tammuz - a 3 weeks mourning period - starts on 7/3/2007 this year and ends on 7/24/2007 - the 9th Av 6007 - (the Jewish Calendar reads 5767 - 240 missing years) which commemorates all the disasters that fell onto the Jewish people on the 9th Av. Just as they missed Ha-Mashiach over 2000 years ago, they missed the beginning of the year 6000. By their own traditions, the Rabbis proclaim that Ha-Mashiach surely will arrive before the year 6000... HE did!

Connecting this number to my personal walk with the LORD :
I came to this country on 7/22/1976, started reading the bible on 7/22/1996 which means this year I will be celebrating my 11th year of reading the Bible on a daily basis - 11 is good - the LORD gave me the meaning of "11" on 7/22/1997 = One in Christ, One in Love - One & One = 11.

It was on 7/22/1980 that the test results of the Shroud of Turin were being sent from ETH Zurch (my Dad worked at Eidgenoessische Technische Hochschule in Zurich for 40 years - retired in the early 70's.) to England. The results were discussed in the book on the Shroud of Turin. I came across many more 7/22's over the years, but have a mental block right now. Okay, 7 canonical divisions and 22 Hebrew Letters and 22 Epistles and Revelation 22:7 :"Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keeps the sayings of the prophecy of this book". From the Last to the First 7:22 in Genesis : 7:22 "All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died."

Of course there are many 7:22 scripture verses, but this one stands out:
Matthew 7:22ff: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name and in your name have cast out devils and in your name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, " I never knew you; depart from me, you that work iniquity" - May God Almighty have mercy on all of us.

Shabbat Shalom
White

[White]

Dear Friends, and believers in Y'SHUA, Our LORD & SAVIOR:
True Israel : I was just logging off when I came across this message in my inbox from www.tentofdavid.tsiyon.org - reminding me of the ISAIAH 11:10-16 scripture passages - I also want to point to ISAIAH 19:23-25 of which verse 25 reads as follows: "Who the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt (Arabs) my people, and Assyria (Catholics, Christians, Believers in Christ) the work of my hands (being nailed to the cross for us sinners), and Israel (Judah, Benjamin, the Jewish People in Israel and around the world)
my inheritance." (Any better understanding to share?)

Here is the text from the House of David :


Q. WHY IS THE HOUSE OF DAVID HOLDING A REUNION? WHY DOES IT MATTER TO ME?

To answer that let's first consider what the Scriptures say regarding
the believing Remnant of Israel, of which the believing House of David
is a part. In focusing on the Remnant of Israel here, we are not
implying that those who are not of ethnic Israelite extraction are in
any way inferior to those who are. All believers in Messiah,
regardless of ancestry, are included in the Commonwealth of Israel.
Therefore, what effects any effects all of the Body of Messiah. So
while our focus here is toward the scattered Remnant of Israel this
message effects all believers.

Now, what exactly do we mean by "the scattered Remnant of Israel" in
these days?

We are talking about the believing scattered remnant of the tribes of
Israel whom Yah has foretold He will gather and return to the Land of
Israel in these final days. Being scattered, these are not yet an
identifiable group. However, the Spirit is speaking to these
individuals from every corner of the globe awakening them to this
call. The prophets spoke of these things. For example, Yeshayahu /
Isaiah wrote: "It will happen in that day that the nations will seek
the root of Jesse, who stands as a banner of the peoples; and his
resting place will be glorious. It will happen in that day that YHWH
will set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant that is
left of his people from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Cush,
from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
He will set up a banner for the nations, and will assemble the
outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from
the four corners of the earth. The envy also of Ephraim will depart,
and those who persecute Judah will be cut off. Ephraim won?t envy
Judah, and Judah won?t persecute Ephraim. .. There will be a highway
for the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, like there
was for Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt."
Yeshayahu / Isaiah 11:10-16

These verses speak of two groups we are writing about today. First, we
are told "that the nations will seek the root of Jesse, who stands as
a banner of the peoples." This is undoubtedly speaking of believers
from all the nations who have put their trust in Messiah, the root of
Jesse. "The nations" seeking Him are all true believers everywhere -
the global Body of Messiah.

The passage then goes on to speak of a new thing Yah would do, saying;
"It will happen in that day that YHWH will set his hand again the
second time to recover the remnant that is left of his people ...and
will assemble the outcasts of Israel ... from the four corners of the
globe." As you probably know, as a result of their disobedience to the
Covenant, the northern ten tribes of Israel were deported from the
Land of Israel by Assyria and from there were scattered throughout the
countries of the world, being assimilated into those countries. A
similar scattering happened to many from the kingdom of Judah as well,
although a core of Judah maintained a cohesive identity. The point is,
there are many of the physical seed of all the tribes of Israel
scattered, largely as misfits and outcasts, throughout the nations,
and this has been true for many centuries. In fact, in the first
century Yah did a work 'to recover the remnant that is left of his
people' whom Yaakov / James addressed as "the twelve tribes which are
scattered abroad." Elsewhere Yaakov / James explained that the
remnant of Israel and the gentile believers together were all under
the covering of the then-renewed Tent of David. (Yaakov / James 1:1,
Acts 15:13-18 )
That was the first time that Yah 'recovered the remnant that was left
of His people.' Regarding the final days YHWH says through Yeshayahu /
Isaiah; "YHWH will set his hand again the SECOND TIME to recover the
remnant that is left of His people." This second recovery is foretold
to culminate in the return of the faithful remnant of Israel to the
Land of Israel.

These specific verses regarding the return of the faithful remnant of
Israel to their Land are not fulfilled by the Jews returning to Israel
to create the state of Israel, though that is part of God's plan
fulfilling other prophecies. Here we are unmistakably told that a
remnant of both Ephraim and Judah will be returned to the Land
together as an organized and united people in one unified move, as
with the Exodus. This has not yet happened but will happen in days
ahead. This return to the Land does not apply to all believers in
Messiah. Not all are called to be part of this remnant of the tribes
of Israel that will return to the Land before the coming of Messiah.
This return of the faithful remnant seed of Israel is a matter of Yah
fulfilling His Word to the forefathers as He stated through the
prophets. All of His Word must be fulfilled to the praise of His glory
before the end of the age will come.

The believing remnant of Israel will not be returning to Israel as
isolated individuals nor as an unorganized mob or even as various
sects. In the words of the prophet above they must first be
"recovered' and "assembled." Yah is a G-d of order and He is
assembling the remnant nation in advance of the return according to
the tribal and family order of Israel. This requires that the
believing House of David (family of David) must be set in order first,
since by covenant the House of David must provide righteous leadership
to the rest of the nation as in the days of old, and as among the
first century believers. Consequently, in the divine order the House
of David must set the lead for the remnant of all the tribes. All of
this is why the believing House of David is now calling for a reunion
and council meeting of all its members. Namely, to be restored
according to its covenantal responsibilities in preparation for the
momentous days ahead. The rest of the tribes will thereafter be
likewise restored, each in its right order. Thus, Scripture is being
fulfilled as the scattered remnant is being "recovered' and
"assembled" in preparation for the return. (Yehezqel / Ezekiel 37:19,
45:8, Revelation 7:4-8, Yirmeyahu / Jeremiah 33:26, Amos 9:11-15)

Now you know why the believing House of David is holding a reunion and
council and why it is important to all believing Israel. Now that you
know, we hope you are as excited about it as we are!

God Bless
White

[Rose]

Thank you White for sharing the e-mail from the House of David, it was a very interesting article.

In regards to the date of the Assyrians conquering Israel, I got the date 720 BC from and article I read on the subject, they may have been rounding it off.

Also when I checked "Wikipedia" they gave the date as around 721 BC.

In doing some quick poking around, it seems the date falls somewhere between 720 and 722.

Good post on your experiences with 7-22

Rose

[joel]

These recent posts are excellent. I am thankful for the insights, and, look forward to more of the same.

Please also consider, as we together seek light on these consequential matters, that during the mininstry of Paul, the apostle of the nations, that there were "secrets"/"mysteries" revealed to him that are supplemental to the prophetic revelations in the "Old Testament".

When we seek to understand God's plan of the ages without reference to these "secrets", our perspective may be limited.

A quick glance at the word "mystery" in Strong's Concordance will lead you to; Romans 11:25, Romans 16:25, I Cor. 2:7, I Cor. 15:51, and then others as well.

Joel

[Rose]

Your absolutely right on Joel, I'm glad you mentioned that.

When we seek to understand God's plan of the ages without reference to these "secrets", our perspective may be limited.

One of my favorite books for "mysteries" is Ephesians, it has and abundance of Paul talking about the "mysteries" of God's will, which has been hidden in God from the beginning of time.

And even with the abundance of revelations that God gave to Paul, he still continued to pray for more understanding, and words to speak.

Ephesians 6:19 "and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel."

May we all pray that prayer
There are so many things that are so far beyond our understanding, the only hope we have is for God to reveal them to us.

Rose