True Israel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi White!

Thanks for taking the time to give me some answers to chew on.

Hi Richard,

Here are the answers to the best of my knowledge :
As you know, I love our LORD & SAVIOR, Y'shua Ha-Mashiach, with all my heart, mind, soul and strength.

Amen and indeed! I know you love our Lord. No questions there my sister!

I knew nothing of Judaism, Torah, Fasts, Feasts and Festivals till 1/1/1998 when the LORD started speak to me in dreams and visions starting with "I'll bless you if you keep the Sabbath holy" . I answered : "I am, I go to Church every Sunday!" The Lord replied: "SABBATH, SABBATH!"

Now I had to find out what SABBATH meant and I discovered that the TRUE SABBATH starts sundown Friday night and ends sundown Saturday night.

This is very interesting. This thread is called TRUE ISRAEL and we have frequently talked about Christ as the TRUE TEMPLE and the TRUE VINE and now we are talking about the TRUE SABBATH. I like all this emphasis on the TRUTH, since JESUS CHRIST is the TRUTH!

So that's what I believe the TRUE SABBATH is. The seventh day of the week was the TYPE that was fulfilled in Christ. Saturday is the natural, Christ is the spiritual fulfillment. That's what the Gospel is all about - resting in Christ. I believe this is what God is teaching us in Colossians 2:16-17 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

Now I don't know all the details about what God has put on your heart, so I wouldn't presume to judge in any way, but is it possible that maybe God had another reason for saying "SABBATH SABBATH"? Perhaps it was a way to get you into the presence of the Jews so you could minister the Gospel to them? But you don't think He wants you to put yourself under the Sabbath laws, do you?

I did a study on Sabbath verses - 3 pages - and when Moses did not know what to do with the Sabbath breaker who picked up sticks for a fire - the LORD told Moses to take him outside of the camp and stone him to death.

That crystal clear message from the LORD ...

What was the "crystal clear message"? Are you saying that the actual physical sabbath day is important to Christians?

As an aside, the fact that the first mention of the 4th commandment being broken occurs in the 4th book is part of a larger pattern that shows God designed the first 10 Spokes on the pattern of the 10 Commandments. For example, the first record of anyone breaking the 3rd commandment is found in Leviticus, the 3rd book. I'll be writing an article on this soon, I hope.

That crystal clear message from the LORD started my journey into Judaism - and my fervor for the LORD'S PLAN for all of mankind has not dimmed since. I want to make sure I walk with HIM every second of the day and for that reason, the LORD reveals certain "secrets" to me that I have never discovered anywhere else.

I would love to hear some of them! Please feel free to start your own thread to share them, if you feel so led of the Lord, of course.

If you read my private message on ISAIAH 4:1 - I got HIS message on that on 12/22/1996 -

Now to Ezekiel 16:59-63 - the LORD is clearly speaking about Israel but meaning JUDAH/Jews - ..."then you shall remember your conduct and be ashamed when I take your sisters, those older and younger than you, and give them to you a daughters, even though I am not bound by my convenant with you. For I will re-establish my covenant with you that you may know that I am the LORD that you may remember and be covered with confusion, and that you may be utterly silenced for shame when I pardon you for all you have done says the LORD GOD.

Israel/Judah/Jews of today are in the middle
the older sister are the descendants of Ishmael
the younger sister are the descendants of the 10 Lost Tribes - Ephraim/
House of Israel/also called Assyria in Isaiah ...

ISAIAH 11:10 - Union of Ephraim and Judah
especially verse 13 - The envy of Ephraim shall pass away and the rivalry of Judah be removed... Ephraim shall not be jealous of Judah and Judah shall not be hostile to Ephraim... but they shall swoop down .... on Egypt ...
read last verse - got to go
talk to you later

Shalom
White

These symbolic identifications are certainly very intriguing, but they will require a LOT of work to establish on the Rock of the Word. I look forward to digging into it all with you, my sister.

I pray our Lord continues to bless you greatly as you study His most excellent Word!

Richard

[shalag]

-----------------------------------------------------

So, Shalag, let us clarify our beliefs.

As I posted previously, there are but three positions as I see it;
1.) Israel is no longer. The "church" is now God's people.


2.) Israel will be roused. The church, and Israel, will be one. They will function together both on earth and in the heavens.

3.) Israel will be roused. They are the bride fulfilling an earthly calling.
The "church" which is being called out today, is the "body" of Christ, which will fulfill a celestial calling.

It is my opinion that #3 is appropriate,
this opinion may not be held by commonly by others.

Richard has apparently held to #1, so it seems and he will have to qualify.

Steven seems to hold to #2, at least as far as I can tell.

I may be wrong as to the observations above, but, I am just trying to clarify this issue.

The reason that I believe this matter is of the greatest of importance concerns our inheritance. It is my belief that "inheritance" issues lie at the heart of God's predetermined purpose of the creation.

One of the "secrets" contained in Paul's Ephesians letter is that those of the nations, and those of Israel, are a "joint-body". That is true today. It does not matter, if you are a Jew, or a Gentile, if you believe today, you are part of a joint-body.

But, when the next eon is brought forth, I say that the scriptures teach that Israel will "be brought back from the dead" to fulfill a special calling on the earth that the "body" of Christ has not been given.

Joel

Hei Joel
You ask me a 'simple' question and it took me this long to come up with this much in order to answer it - somewhat. This was actually my ending statement but I moved it up here - because I had to go through quite a process you see below to even answer what you are asking. Okay, these are not 'simple questions' to me. I have to erase all I've heard, all I've been taught, and all I've read outside the Word of God itself, in order to even think about 'what I hold as a belief'. Now that I've got 'my mind straight' on who is 'elect' - whom God is 'choosing' - For many are called and few are chosen - (Matthew 20:16 (76), Matthew 22:14 (76), 1Peter 2:9 (71/20th prime/REISH) & Revelation 17:14 (97/25th prime/NUN Sof (kindgom heir). I will try to answer your question regarding "What I believe".

For the 1st category - I would have to say I do not agree with number 1 because Israel DOES EXIST and will ALWAYS exist. But that necessarily requires a defining of Israel according to God's Word.

Therefore I will go to number 2 -
Israel will be roused. The church, and Israel, will be one. They will function together both on earth and in the heavens.
Israel, according to the Word I'm citing was 'roused' when Christ came in the flesh.
"The church and Israel will be one" would have to be true according to Ephesians 4 (53/16th prime)

Ephesians (49/5th spoke) 4:4 (8) (57/3x19)
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 (58/grace)
one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 (59/17th prime/PEI/mouth)
one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

I would have to say I'm leaning toward number 2 according to your criteria of belief - and according to the Word that Israel is ONLY according to the 'promise', through Isaac, further through Jacob (who supplanted Esau (who is Edom/ADM) who sold his birthright - and Jacob the supplanter received the blessing and birthright. That still brings me back to Y H V D H and that ALL must enter through the DOOR and those who try to enter 'any other way' are 'thieves and robbers'.

Which brings my heart and soul to a gut wrenching position as Paul stated in Romans 9 - - about present Israel today - their presence in Israel/Jerusalem - -yet I know the gospel is STILL to the Jew first - until ALL Israel is incorporated as body.

This also means I have to go back over Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 and ask myself about the 'elect' being 'deceived'.

I'm not sure if I answered your question - I know I haven't answered my own yet.

Number three would clarify a 'division' of purpose - 'on earth as it is in heaven' - I think - you'd lose the 'one'. It says there will be a new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Reference #1 Israel is no longer.
This can not be. Israel is a firstborn son. Israel is 'elect'. Jesus Christ, Messiah, is elect, firstborn from the dead, and King of Israel. A king necessarily rules a kingdom. Israel is a kingdom of people as witnessed by 'they, their, them'. The New Testament also refers to Jesus Christ as 'King of Israel'. Israel 'prevails'. Israel 'rules as a prince'.

Israel/Messiah Jesus Christ/elect/and King of Israel:

Isaiah (23) 42:1 (43) (69/3x23)
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth;
I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Isaiah (23) 65:9 (74) (97/25th prime/Nun Sof) - - - *Galatians (48) 3:16 (19) (67/19th prime/KUF)
And I will bring forth a seed* out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains:
and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

John (43) 1:49 (50) (93/3x31)
Nathanael (gift of God) answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God;
thou art the King of Israel.

1Peter (60) 2:6 (8) (68)
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion
a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

Israel/kingdom/a people/ is God's elect:

Isaiah (23) 45:4 (49) (72)
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name:
I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Isaiah (23) 65:22 (87/3x29 (10/th prime/YUD)
They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat:
for as the days of a tree are the days of my people,
and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

Israel's/the elect/ status:

1Chronicles (13) 28:4 (32) (45)
Howbeit the LORD God of Israel chose me (David) before all the house of my father to be king over Israel for ever:
for he hath chosen Judah to be the ruler; and of the house of Judah, the house of my father;
and among the sons of my father he liked me to make me king overall Israel:

Exodus (2) 4:22 (26) (house, door,cross, Jehovah)
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Jeremiah (24) 31:9 (40) (64)
They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them:
I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble:
for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim* is my firstborn.

Ephraim = "double ash-heap: I shall be doubly fruitful"
destruction of 2 temples - restoration to include grafted Gentiles.
The 10 northern tribes, aka Israel/Ephraim - being assimilated in conquest by Assyrians.

Now before we address the elect in the New Testament I want to present a thought here because Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 speak about the elect in a 'time of trouble'. The book of Matthew starts out with a statement about the 'genealogy' of Christ - or as other translations have it - the 'generation' of Christ. Now as I see it - we here today in 2007 are still the 'generation of Christ. I see that there were the generation(s) before Christ came in the flesh, the generation(s) of Christ coming in the flesh, and then it speaks of imposing iniquity on the (wicked/Christless) third and fourth generations. These next generations seem to be where the 'sun'/Christ and the 'moon'/bride does not give her light to the earth.

So now, let's consider the 'elect of the New Testament.

In Matthew, Mark and Luke accounts of the elect during a time of trouble the time is cut short so that some 'flesh' will be saved but then goes on in Matthew 24:24 (88) (for one) and states that the 'very elect' might be deceived by some of the signs and wonders going on. (24 is MEM Sof - arrival of Messiah).
And then in Matthew (40) 24:31 (55/bride/all) (95/the water/5x19) we see the elect being gathered 'in the heavens'.

Matthew (40) 24:34 (58/grace) (98/2x7(2) -
ALL (above mentioned prophecy) fulfilled (for this generation of Christ)
Matthew (40) 24:35 (59/17th prime/mouth) (99/(3(2)x11)
Heaven & earth pass away

In 2007 - ALL has not been fulfilled - the sun and the moon are still with us (the sun/Christ, the moon/those reflecting the light of the sun/Son) and the heavens and earth are still here.

Matthew (40) 24:39 (63) (103/27th prime/final righteousness)
Son of Man comes
Matthew (40) 24:40 (64) (104/2(3)x13)
One is taken, one is left

Now - going on to the other references of elect in the NT as applies:

Romans (45) 8:33 (41) (86) (Referring to Christ/elect)
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Colossians (51) 3:10 (13) (64)
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
3:11 (65)
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
3:12 (66)
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

1Timothy (54) 5:21 (26) (80/mouth) refers to 'elect angels'.

2Timothy (55) 2:10 (12) (67/19th prime/KUF)
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Titus (56) 1:1 (2) (58/grace) says according to the faith of God's elect, - -which I believe refers back to Christ/ as elect.

The Scriptures in Peter's epistles referring to the 'elect':
1Peter (60) 1:2 (3) (63/3(2)x7)
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1Peter (60) 2:6 (8) (68/2(2)x17) - -referring to Christ/Messiah
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

2John (63) 1:1 (2) (65/5x13)
2John (63) 1:13 (14) (77) (7x11)
speak of 'the elder' to the "elect lady and her children" and also the 'children of the 'elect sister'

144[12x12] + The Elect + Of Old, Before, Antiquity + The Heart + Full of Wisdom + In that day shall there be one LORD + Mourn, Lament + Wizard

220 [2(2)x5x11]+ A sure foundation + Chosen, Elect + Clean, Pure + Thy Precepts + Forever + Deep, Profound + Doorkeeper + Tender, Soft

777 [3x7x37] + In the firmament of heaven + The beginning was + Freed Man + In Zion, the Mountain of My Holiness + Sing to the LORD who lives in Zion! + thou filledst + but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. + God Heaven Earth + and Israel mine elect + and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. + The Way of Wisdom (Sof) + My doctrine shall drop as the rain + Seventy years + that delighteth greatly in his commandments + that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD + they hear the words of thy mouth + His soul an offering for sin + Methusael

1914 + In the Book of Life + The Gospel of the Kingdom + A remnant according to the election of grace + The whole remnant of the House of Israel

The above defines the elect - as Israel - but then Romans further defines 'Jew' and 'Israel':
Romans (45) 2:29 (31) (76/2(2)x19)
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly ; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans (45) 1:1 (2) (47/15th prime/SAMEK)
I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,
2(48)
that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart.
3 (49/7x7)
For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh,
4 (50)
who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;
5 (51)
of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

And now the HUGE clarification:

6 (52 [2(2)x13])
But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
7 (53/16th prime/AYIN) nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham;
but, "In Isaac (those who make sport of death) your seed shall be called."
8 (54 [2x3(3)]) That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God;
but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
9 (55/bride) For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son."
10 (56 [2(3)x7]) And
not only this, but when Rebecca (ensnarer) (307/63rd prime) also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac
11 (57 [3x19] (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil,
that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
12 (58/grace [2x29 (10th prime/YUD) it was said to her, "The older (the one who sold birthright) shall serve the younger (the one who receives birthright)."
13 (59/17th prime/PEI/mouth)
As it is written, "Jacob [who asked for firstborn birthright]I have loved, but Esau [who sold firstborn birthright] I have hated."

[joel]

Shalag, that was the product of great labor, in the Lord.

I had no idea that my question/statement/discussion would be a catalyst for such deep inquiry.

There is much there to look into, and I appreciate your findings.

Thanks for all.

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

As I posted previously, there are but three positions as I see it;
1.) Israel is no longer. The "church" is now God's people.

2.) Israel will be roused. The church, and Israel, will be one. They will function together both on earth and in the heavens.

3.) Israel will be roused. They are the bride fulfilling an earthly calling.
The "church" which is being called out today, is the "body" of Christ, which will fulfill a celestial calling.

Reference #1 Israel is no longer.
This can not be. Israel is a firstborn son. Israel is 'elect'. Jesus Christ, Messiah, is elect, firstborn from the dead, and King of Israel. A king necessarily rules a kingdom. Israel is a kingdom of people as witnessed by 'they, their, them'. The New Testament also refers to Jesus Christ as 'King of Israel'. Israel 'prevails'. Israel 'rules as a prince'.

Hi Shalag,

I don't understand what you mean when you say "Israel" must still exist, because there are a variety of definitions of the term "Israel."

First, there is Israel who was the man Jacob, and who became the father of the 12 Tribes which were collectively called "Israel." Then there was the "Kingdom of Israel" which consisted of 10 Tribes in the north, contrasted with the Kingdom of Judah in the south. And then there is True Israel which began with all the natural sons of Abraham who believed God when He came to them in the person of Jesus Christ. This is when True Israel was divided from "Israel in the flesh." The fleshly branches were "broken off" because of unbelief. Before that, you could be physically born into natural Israel. But after Christ came, you had to have personal faith in God through Christ or you would be a branch broken off. Finally, God expanded True Israel to include the Gentiles which He grafted in through faith.

So I agree with you that "Israel" exists and always will since the gates of hell can not prevail against her, but I don't agree that the 10 tribes still exist. Sure, their descendants physically exist in a very diluted sense, by which I mean they have lost their genetic heritage because they have interbred for roughly 70 generations with the Gentiles. And how do we know that? Well, it seems pretty obvious, since there are no groups of people that can say "I am of Naphtali" or "I am of Asher" with any certainty, and so they must have lost their identity long ago, and if they don't know who they are, they couldn't avoid inter-breading with Gentiles (its tough enough for the Jews who still know who they are!). Without the social cohesion of conscious membership in the 10 tribes, their identities would certainly be lost.

As for a "king" needing a "kingdom" - I think we need to focus on the true identity of the King of whom we speak. He is King of Kings and Lord of lords. His Kingdom is the Kingdom of God, He rules the universe, not some earthly "kingdom of this world" composed of a middle-eastern ethnic group.

I hope I'm not coming across too sharply, my friend. I am trying to speak gently but clearly.

Richard

[White]

Hi Richard and Shalag,
I see both of you are putting a lot of work into this
"TRUE ISRAEL" - Shalag : Please correct : it's Romans 9:1 not 1:1 and
Richard, since we did talk about Amos 9:11 etc let me quote 9:9-11 :
For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son" (my reading at OLL last Thursday, but from Genesis... )10- and not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him who calls, (12) it was said to her, "The older (Esau) shall serve the younger (Isaac) (13) As it is written: "I loved Jacob but hated Esau."
Why : because God shows Mercy to whom He shows Mercy at His sole election. (v. 14-16)

Just a quick story to clarify this point - One of my customers took me to small claims court in Summer 1998 after I closed my Jewelry Store - Now that had never happened before, so I was upset because I wanted to have a clean record and the customer's name was ESAU - I felt that I should win since I walk with the WORD and ISAAC has the birthright. But I lost. I had to appeal and take an attorney at that, which would cost me more money than if I settled. But I felt the LORD led me to appeal the case. We are in court a second time; there were so many cases to be heard, my attorney had to come back a second day which cost more money. I thought: Maybe I did not wear the right clothes. Let me wear "WHITE" for "white as snow" - which I did - I found out this time that the customer's name was actually ESAU ESAU - I said to my attorney: "I'm sure now we are going to win" because in the bible Esau lost and Isaac won. My attorney was doubtful. I presented my case - the Truth - while he was lying. But the Judges heart was in the LORD'S hands and the very next day my attorney called me and said: "You won! Not only don't you have to pay, he has to pay your attorney fees!" The WORD OF GOD is true, reliable, sharper than a two edged sword, but we MUST BELIEVE.

Richard : Also your earlier question concerning Assyria (Egypt, Assyria, Israel in Isaiah 19:25) is answered in today's post under EPHRAIM - being assimilated in conquest by Assyrians later turned into "Catholics and Christians" because it says ASSYRIA the work of my hands = nailed to the cross. Ponder some more and comment please. Thanks. Sorry, can't comment more right now.
As always
Shalom,
White

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I was reading Galatians 3:16-18 because it tells us how God "confirmed the covenant in Christ" (see Daniel 9:27), and noticed that Paul said "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

To me, this confirms that Christ is True Israel, the Seed of Abraham.

The title extends to the Church because the Church is His Body. We are one with Him.

RAM

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard, since we did talk about Amos 9:11 etc let me quote 9:9-11 :
For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son" (my reading at OLL last Thursday, but from Genesis... )10- and not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him who calls, (12) it was said to her, "The older (Esau) shall serve the younger (Isaac) (13) As it is written: "I loved Jacob but hated Esau."
Why : because God shows Mercy to whom He shows Mercy at His sole election. (v. 14-16)

As always
Shalom,
White

Hi White,

I'm still curious how you understand Amos 9:11 in light of its fulfillment as stated in Acts 15. A look at the context might help:

Amos 9:8-12 Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom [Israel], and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD. 9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. 10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us. 11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: 12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen [Goy = Gentiles], which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

The Gentiles called by God's Name! Now that's the Gospel that James finally came to understand in Acts 15:

Acts 15:14-17 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

The Bible itself declares that the prophecy of Amos 9:11 was fulfilled when God grafted the Gentiles into the Church of Israel to form one new man,

Ephesians 2:13-16 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Richard

[White]

Hi White,

I'm still curious how you understand Amos 9:11 in light of its fulfillment as stated in Acts 15. A look at the context might help:

The Gentiles called by God's Name! Now that's the Gospel that James finally came to understand in Acts 15:

The Bible itself declares that the prophecy of Amos 9:11 was fulfilled when God grafted the Gentiles into the Church of Israel to form one new man,

Richard

Hi Richard,
As I wrote earlier, it is the Holy Spirit who lifted me up to that verse for 9/11/1999 which happened to be the Jewish New Year - I quoted that verse to Rabbi Goldberger for the good News Y'SHUA has for HIS people : "In that day will I raise up the TABERNACLE of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins and I will build it as in the days of old; (15) And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy GOD.

Now obviously verse 15 could not have happened before 70 AD, but the Jewish people always refer to the verse as starting in 1948 - the re-establishment of ISRAEL - Isaiah 60:1: Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. Chapters 60, 61, 62 to 66 are important "Good News" for the Jewish Nation - Israel : 66:8: WHO HATH HEARD SUCH A THING? WHO HATH SEEN SUCH THINGS? SHALL THE EARTH BE MADE TO BRING FORTH IN ONE DAY? OR SHALL A NATION BE BORN AT ONCE? (ISRAEL IN 1948 BORN IN ONE DAY ON 5/14/1948) FOR A SOON AS ZION TRAVAILED, SHE BROUGHT FORTH HER CHILDREN. (9) SHALL I BRING TO THE BIRTH, AND NOT CAUSE TO BRING FORTH? SAYSTH THE LORD; SHALL I CAUSE TO BRING FORTH, AND SHUT THE WOMB? SAITH THY GOD. (10) REJOICE YE WITH JERUSALEM, AND BE GLAD WITH HER, ALL YE THAT LOVE HER; REJOICE FOR JOY WITH HER, ALL YE THAT MOURN FOR HER... AND (12) FOR THUS SAITH THE LORD, BEHOLD, I WILL EXTEND PEACE TO HER LIKE A RIVER, AND THE GLORY OF THE GENTILES LIKE A FLOWING STREAM....

So to answer your questions : I agree with you that Y'SHUA is our LORD and SAVIOR, by HIS BLOOD we are washed and white as snow, by HIS sacrifice we shall enter Heaven, but if we can change HIS WORDS such as the 10 Commandments of which the 4th is KEEP THE SABBATH HOLY - 4 = dalet = door = ? and the JEWISH (JUDAH) people will NEVER agree that SABBATH can be Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, but only SABBATH = SATURDAY (actually SABBATH means Saturday, right) - as a matter of fact they call her the SABBATH QUEEN - and she is special to be celebrated 52 times per year - something like Heaven on Earth for the Jewish people connecting to the LORD in a special, holy, reverent, submissive way -and most of all Y'SHUA kept the SABBATH HOLY and HEALED PEOPLE ON THAT DAY and Matthew 12:8 says : "FOR THE SON OF MAN IS LORD OF THE SABBATH" - I would respectfully argue with you about any other HOLY DAY but the SABBATH Day - Now, obviously, the Orthodox Jews as well as others have Services on Sunday, Monday.... but the SABBATH / SATURDAY is their day of REST. To unite all under one TENT so to speak, should we not do the same if we claim that we are from the HOUSE OF ISRAEL in a physical way and not only a "spiritual" way?

As a matter of fact Acts 15 verse 21 makes my point : "For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues EVERY SABBATH (Saturday). " Even in this Chapter of the Book of Acts does it confirm that they are being taught in the Synagogues all that MOSES taught and that is on the SABBATH. See also Y'SHUA'S WORDS in Matthew 5:17 - 20 = Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil (Y'shua does not stop here but goes on) (18) For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass (we still live on Earth right?), one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (20) For I say unto you that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye SHALL IN NO CASE ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN."

Don't you want to be called GREAT IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN? I do! And I know you will be called Great as well because the Holy Spirit is with you otherwise you could not write such a beautiful book as the BIBLEWHEEL ! The LORD works with me in a slightly different way in that He makes me walk the Walk for all to see... quite difficult at times as I am sure you know as well. So if we don't agree 100% it is because "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face; now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known - 1 Cor. 13:12 - and the Glorious 13th verse: "And now abideth faith, hope, love, these three, but the greatest of these is love (actually it says "charity") - Love covers a multitude of sins.

The last day I attended SEED OF ABRAHAM on 6/19/1998 - my first KOSHER SHABBAT after having received the Mikveh for the first time at Kenesseth Israel but not attending their Sabbath Services till September and then regularly after 12/26/1998 - a lady came up to me and gave me a beautiful picture frame with the following verse, which the LORD told her to write for me with the Title :

"MONIQUE" - "Advisor" - "Woman of Wisdom" and the following verse:
"And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament;
and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."
Daniel 12:3

I still have it in my possession - a treasured gift from the LORD.
It is in September on 1998 that the LORD guided my steps to the Orthodox Synagogue as per my Testimony "The Spirit and the Bride" - Rev. 22:16-17 which I delivered on 11/25/1998 (for Romans 11:25).

More to chew on?
Thanks for your thoughts on this.
Shalom tonight
Shalom tomorrow for the 17th Tammuz - the beginning of the 3 weeks of mourning
for the destruction of the Temple (and for us shall we mourn because the veil is still over "their" eyes
hiding Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH, but not for long ...)
Shalom for all people, the Jew first, then the Gentile (Romans 1:16)
White

[Richard Amiel McGough]

My dear sister,

There is some strong meat in this message. I have done my best to speak with respect and gentleness. But some of our points of disagreement run very deep, and I fear my answers may offend you. So please understand, there is no offense intended. I have done my best to speak the truth in love!

Hi Richard,
As I wrote earlier, it is the Holy Spirit who lifted me up to that verse for 9/11/1999 which happened to be the Jewish New Year - I quoted that verse to Rabbi Goldberger for the good News Y'SHUA has for HIS people : "In that day will I raise up the TABERNACLE of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins and I will build it as in the days of old; (15) And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy GOD.

Now obviously verse 15 could not have happened before 70 AD,

Actually, it seems obvious to me that it was fulfilled before 70 AD. Let's look at the larger context so I can show you why I see it this way:

Acts 15:7-10 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

So Peter declared that the Law would be a "yoke on the necks" of the Gentile believers that the Jews themselves were not able to bear. This agrees with the words of Paul, who said that you can not be justified by the Law. And you yourself said that "we are not under the law." Indeed, it is a fundamental aspect of the Gospel of Righteousness through Faith.

Continuing on with Acts 15:

Acts 15:13-17 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

So there it is. James applied Amos 9:11-12 to the Church that was birthed from amongst the Jews and expanded when God grafted in of the Gentiles. This is the true meaning of the rebuilding of the Tabernacle of David. It has nothing to do with a group of ethnic Jews in the 21st century. It is a million times greater than that. It has to do with the building of the Kingdom of God in Christ who is the True Tabernacle of David.

And it was in this context of Acts 15 that people who tried to make others obey the JEWISH WAYS AND LAWS were said to be subverting souls!

Acts 15:23-24 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment.

Now obviously verse 15 could not have happened before 70 AD, but the Jewish people always refer to the verse as starting in 1948 - the re-establishment of ISRAEL - Isaiah 60:1: Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. Chapters 60, 61, 62 to 66 are important "Good News" for the Jewish Nation - Israel : 66:8: WHO HATH HEARD SUCH A THING? WHO HATH SEEN SUCH THINGS? SHALL THE EARTH BE MADE TO BRING FORTH IN ONE DAY? OR SHALL A NATION BE BORN AT ONCE? (ISRAEL IN 1948 BORN IN ONE DAY ON 5/14/1948) FOR A SOON AS ZION TRAVAILED, SHE BROUGHT FORTH HER CHILDREN. (9) SHALL I BRING TO THE BIRTH, AND NOT CAUSE TO BRING FORTH? SAYSTH THE LORD; SHALL I CAUSE TO BRING FORTH, AND SHUT THE WOMB? SAITH THY GOD. (10) REJOICE YE WITH JERUSALEM, AND BE GLAD WITH HER, ALL YE THAT LOVE HER; REJOICE FOR JOY WITH HER, ALL YE THAT MOURN FOR HER... AND (12) FOR THUS SAITH THE LORD, BEHOLD, I WILL EXTEND PEACE TO HER LIKE A RIVER, AND THE GLORY OF THE GENTILES LIKE A FLOWING STREAM....

Those are prophecies of the Church which was birthed in Israel - the woman did indeed "bring forth in one day!" Praise God Almighty! The Church of Israel brought forth her children of Abraham who is the father of us all through FAITH in CHRIST! It has nothing to do with some future fulfillment. That does violence to the Gospel of Christ. All the prophets spoke of those days in the first century, says the Bible.

So to answer your questions : I agree with you that Y'SHUA is our LORD and SAVIOR, by HIS BLOOD we are washed and white as snow, by HIS sacrifice we shall enter Heaven, but if we can change HIS WORDS such as the 10 Commandments of which the 4th is KEEP THE SABBATH HOLY - 4 = dalet = door = ?

First, Christ is our Sabbath. The Law was fulfilled in Him.

Second, nobody "changed His words." The Torah teaches the we must be circumcised and obey the Sabbath. The New Testament tells that if we do those things we will be "fallen from grace" and "Christ will avail us nothing." There is no "half way" point in obedience to the Law:

Galatians 5:1-4 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 ¶ Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

and the JEWISH (JUDAH) people will NEVER agree that SABBATH can be Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, but only SABBATH = SATURDAY (actually SABBATH means Saturday, right)

Of course not, but so what? No one who knows the Bible would tell that that the Sabbath was any day other than Saturday. But Christians will tell them that obedience to the Law -whether it be the sabbath law, the circumcision law, or the dietary law or whatever - will most certainly NOT justify them in the sight of God! And that's all that really matters, right?

- as a matter of fact they call her the SABBATH QUEEN - and she is special to be celebrated 52 times per year - something like Heaven on Earth for the Jewish people connecting to the LORD in a special, holy, reverent, submissive way -

The idea of the "Sabbath Queen" is a beautiful and prophetic image of what Jews will enjoy when the repent and come to faith in Christ. It is very interesting that the word the Sabbath (HaShabbat) = 707 = His Wife (Eshto) = Upon the mountains of spices (from the last verses of the Song of Songs).

and most of all Y'SHUA kept the SABBATH HOLY and HEALED PEOPLE ON THAT DAY and Matthew 12:8 says : "FOR THE SON OF MAN IS LORD OF THE SABBATH" - I would respectfully argue with you about any other HOLY DAY but the SABBATH Day -

This is the thing that is so wrong about trying to go back to the types and shadows. Christ is the Holy One. He is our Sabbath. Its like you are looking at the "pointing finger" rather than the object that its point to, which is Christ.

And as for Christ "keeping the Sabbath holy" - that's not what the Jews thought He was doing. They wanted to murder Him because He healed on the Sabbath.

Now, obviously, the Orthodox Jews as well as others have Services on Sunday, Monday.... but the SABBATH / SATURDAY is their day of REST. To unite all under one TENT so to speak, should we not do the same if we claim that we are from the HOUSE OF ISRAEL in a physical way and not only a "spiritual" way?

Absolutely not. Christians should never "unite" with Jews by trying to go back to the Law. The only unity we can have with them is the unity we have had with them from the beginning. I speak of the Faith of Jesus Christ in which there is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female. That is our only unity.

The Law killed Christ. We can not put ourselves under it and remain in Christ. We are DEAD TO THE LAW. That includes the Sabbath and circumcision and dietary laws. Christ fulfilled it all.

See also Y'SHUA'S WORDS in Matthew 5:17 - 20 = Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! Christ Himself is the fulfillment of the Law, as it is written:

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

See also Y'SHUA'S WORDS in Matthew 5:17 - 20 = Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil (Y'shua does not stop here but goes on) (18) For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass (we still live on Earth right?), one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The Law commands circumcision. The New Testament tells us in many places that we are no longer under that law, and that we do not need to obey that commandment. Indeed, we find it even in Acts 15!

Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

(19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (20) For I say unto you that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye SHALL IN NO CASE ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN."

Don't you want to be called GREAT IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN? I do!

Yes I do! And the only way to do it is to teach the whole counsel of God, which most certainly does not involve obedience to the Jewish laws.

So help me understand what you mean. Do you think your righteousness through works will exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees? Does that sound like the Gospel to you? Is that what you think Jesus was telling us? We are supposed to follow not just 613 Jewish laws, but maybe 613,000? Then we'd be GREAT in the Kingdom of God? Of course not!

What then was Christ really teaching? He was teaching the Gospel of Righteousness through Faith. No one - you, me, the Pharisees - will ever enter heaven by anything but God's Grace through faith. That's the Gospel. It is entirely contrary to trying to righteousness achieved by "obeying the commandments."

More to chew on?
Thanks for your thoughts on this.
Shalom tonight
Shalom tomorrow for the 17th Tammuz
Shalom for all people, the Jew first, then the Gentile
White

Yes my friend, that was MUCH to chew on. I hope my offering is palatable - I don't want you to break a tooth on the tough steak I just served you!

God bless you White, and I pray we can come to a mutual understanding of these important matters. I really appreciate your heart and enthusiasm for the things of God. I trust you can see that I too have a deep passion for these things.

Richard

[shalag]

Hi Shalag,

I don't understand what you mean when you say "Israel" must still exist, because there are a variety of definitions of the term "Israel."

Jesus Christ is KING OF ISRAEL. The fact that He is King of Israel says that Israel 'still exists'.

First, there is Israel who was the man Jacob, and who became the father of the 12 Tribes which were collectively called "Israel."

Matthew 22:32 (94 (2x47/15th prime/SAMEK)), Mark 12:27(80/PEI), Luke 20:38 (100/KUF)
Jacob/Israel is not with us in the flesh - but God says He is God of the living. So even as dead, sleeping, unseen - Jacob is alive and well - and still 'Israel'.

Then there was the "Kingdom of Israel" which consisted of 10 Tribes in the north, contrasted with the Kingdom of Judah in the south.

A political division among the people at that point of time.

And then there is True Israel which began with all the natural sons of Abraham who believed God when He came to them in the person of Jesus Christ. This is when True Israel was divided from "Israel in the flesh."

Okey-dokey - I'm reading this - and while it is 'letter perfect' I'm hearing something in there. (ding, ding, ding, clang) I'm not disagreeing with what you wrote but I am hearing something in there. Hmmmmmm..... okay - it has to do with the word 'flesh'. You said "This is when True Israel was divided from "Israel in the flesh/natural Israel." I hear this better as 'divided from natural Israel who is yet dwelling in immorality/unbelief. While it is true that the 'seed' - is from Abraham/Isaac/Christ/heirs (Gal 3:16 [67]) it is also true what follows Romans 9 in Romans 11:

Romans (45) 11:5 (16) (61/18th prime/TZADI/righteous)
Even so then at this present time also
there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

11:11 (22) (67/19th prime/KUF/holy)
I say then ,
Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid:
but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

11:14 (25/NUN Sof/kingdom)
If by any means
I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh,
and might save some of them.

11:15 (26/FEI Sof/mouth)
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world,
what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

11:16 (27/TZADI Sof/final righteousness
For if the firstfruit be holy,
the lump is also holy:
and if the root be holy,
so are the branches.

11:18 (29/10th prime/YUD/will of God)
Boast not against the branches.
But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

11:23 (34/2x17/7th prime/sword)
And they also,
if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in:
for God is able to graff them in again.

And this most important Scripture:

Romans (45) 11:28 (39) (84 [2(2)x3x7])
As concerning the gospel,
they are enemies for your sakes:
but as touching the election,they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

The fleshly branches were "broken off" because of unbelief. Before that, you could be physically born into natural Israel. But after Christ came, you had to have personal faith in God through Christ or you would be a branch broken off. Finally, God expanded True Israel to include the Gentiles which He grafted in through faith.

No disagreement.

So I agree with you that "Israel" exists and always will since the gates of hell can not prevail against her, but I don't agree that the 10 tribes still exist. Sure, their descendants physically exist in a very diluted sense, by which I mean they have lost their genetic heritage because they have interbred for roughly 70 generations with the Gentiles. And how do we know that? Well, it seems pretty obvious, since there are no groups of people that can say "I am of Naphtali" or "I am of Asher" with any certainty, and so they must have lost their identity long ago, and if they don't know who they are, they couldn't avoid inter-breading with Gentiles (its tough enough for the Jews who still know who they are!). Without the social cohesion of conscious membership in the 10 tribes, their identities would certainly be lost.

First, I would ask you what your Scriptural reference is for the above. Romans 11 makes it clear that God has not cast away his people. Just because we don't know - or don't recognize - doesn't mean that God does not. For He created them.

Romans (45) 11:5 (16) (61/18th prime/TZADI/righteousness)
Even so then at this present time also there is
a remnant according to the election of grace.

Even if we do not recognize people by tribe - God does. Revelation goes to great length in the mentioning of the tribes - even to the gates upon which their names are inscribed. Can we trust ourselves to judge by sight thinking something yet called 'holy' is obvious? I think not.

Rev 5:5 (76) Christ is mentioned as from the tribe of Judah
Rev 7:4 - 7:8 (77-81) The sealing of the tribes, 12,000 from each tribe
Rev 21:12 (99) the names of the twelve tribes written on the gates

As for a "king" needing a "kingdom" - I think we need to focus on the true identity of the King of whom we speak. He is King of Kings and Lord of lords. His Kingdom is the Kingdom of God, He rules the universe, not some earthly "kingdom of this world" composed of a middle-eastern ethnic group.

A king does not 'need' a kingdom - He has a kingdom. I bow to His true identity, King of King, Lord of lords, the kingdom of God. Yet Nathanael acknowledged him as King of Israel, Pilate wrote, King of the Jews. And we pray, 'may it be done on earth as it is in heaven'.

Acts 1:4 (49 [7x7] And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, "which," He said, "you have heard from Me;
5 (50) for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."
6 (51) Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying,
"Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"
7 (52) And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.
8 (53) But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

Jesus Ascends to Heaven
(Mark 16:19, 20; Luke 24:50-53)

Acts 1:9 (54) Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10 (55) And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,
11 (56) who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

We speak of a second coming. He is coming again-in like manner as he was seen going into heaven. This says to me that he is concerned about earthly affairs - yes -even His own ethnic brothers who he still holds the sceptre out to.