Natural Children and God's Children

[eliyahu]

Don't take this the wrong way Brother Les, but what is your point? I just do not see what you are trying to say.

[Trumpet]

Originally posted by Richard:

Where in all that do we find some special plan for carnal Israel? A rebuilt Temple? Reinstituted bloody sacrifices? A return to the Old Covenant?

I said it before. The present nation of carnal Israel is trying to claim the birthright. They are mixed with the Edomites at present, so they are about to be judged by God, unless they turn to Him, repent for claiming to be the "chosen people" without Jesus, and accept Him. The broken bottle of Jeremiah has NOT yet happened. Spiritualizing it into the first century is only a partial fulfillment. That city of Jerusalem still stands. Jeremiah 19:11 says that God is going to break the people AND the city so that it CANNOT be made whole again. Jerusalem at present IS whole again as a city. God's plan includes the spiritual AND the physical. It always has. There will be no temple rebuilt, and who cares if they try to build one...It's meaningless!

I very much appreciate that sentiment, Don. But we certainly must not use it as a dodge for the plain fact that the Bible does not teach anything about a future for carnal Israel outside the Gospel. Or what? Is the Doctrine of Carnal Israelitism a "secret doctrine" known only to the "initiates" who have sufficient "intimacy" with Christ?

It's no dodge at all! The bible does show a carnal Israel. Ezekiel 38 and 39. Malachi 1. Obadiah. Isaiah 24:10 describes the bad carnal Jews of the last 2 millenium very well; and they have yet to be consumed off the land that God gave to their fathers!

Jerusalem, even though it's religion was void as of AD 33, they still were judged being carnal in AD 66 through 73. But they have returned as basically the same religion, and Judaism has not yet been broken. ALL enemies have to be under Jesus' feet before the end comes, and Judaism is one of those.

I'm not trying to say that I have received some "secret doctrines", because I'm more intimate with Jesus than you....nah, nah, nah! LOL! I'm stating the fact that intimacy with the Lord is a very important part of Him showing things to us, and I wish I had more intimacy! I don't believe that the Word of God's revelation is a closed book as of 70 AD. God's Word is infinite, and the proof that it applies ahead to our time has been proven by none other than you in your book! It just hasn't been looked into enough.

God Bless Don

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Originally posted by Richard:

I said it before. The present nation of carnal Israel is trying to claim the birthright. They are mixed with the Edomites at present, so they are about to be judged by God, unless they turn to Him, repent for claiming to be the "chosen people" without Jesus, and accept Him.

Ooops, I remember now. You did explain your view on modern Israel. Sometimes it's hard to hold all the different ideas together especially when the overlap with each other. Thanks for reminding me.

The broken bottle of Jeremiah has NOT yet happened. Spiritualizing it into the first century is only a partial fulfillment. That city of Jerusalem still stands.

Upon a rereading of the prophecy, it seems pretty clear that its primary fulfillment was in the Babylonian destruction of 586 BC:

Jeremiah 20:4-6 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will make thee a terror to thyself, and to all thy friends: and they shall fall by the sword of their enemies, and thine eyes shall behold it: and I will give all Judah into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall carry them captive into Babylon, and shall slay them with the sword. 5 Moreover I will deliver all the strength of this city, and all the labours thereof, and all the precious things thereof, and all the treasures of the kings of Judah will I give into the hand of their enemies, which shall spoil them, and take them, and carry them to Babylon.

Is there any justification to assert that this prophecy has not been fulfilled? I see none. It seems that we can know with perfect certainty that the "broken bottle prophecy" was utterly fulfilled in the Babylonian exile.

Jeremiah 19:11 says that God is going to break the people AND the city so that it CANNOT be made whole again.

Let's take a look at Jer 19:11:

Jeremiah 19:11-12 And shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaketh a potter's vessel, that cannot be made whole again: and they shall bury them in Tophet, till there be no place to bury.

I think your interpretation ignores the intended hyperbole of this verse. God was emphasizing the degree of the destruction of 586 BC to indicate that it would be total like a smashed bottle. It would be absurd to force a false hyperliteral interpretation on this verse and then to use that to deny the obvious fulfillment in 586 BC. Such would do extreme violence to the plain and incontrovertible declaration of Jer 20:4-6 that tells us the prophecy was fulfilled in the Babylonian exile.

Jerusalem at present IS whole again as a city. God's plan includes the spiritual AND the physical. It always has. There will be no temple rebuilt, and who cares if they try to build one...It's meaningless!

It seems absolutely impossible to apply Jeremiah 19 to the future. The prophecy declares that it would be fulfilled in the Babylonian exile of 586 BC.

It's no dodge at all! The bible does show a carnal Israel. Ezekiel 38 and 39. Malachi 1. Obadiah. Isaiah 24:10 describes the bad carnal Jews of the last 2 millenium very well; and they have yet to be consumed off the land that God gave to their fathers!

I would be delighted to review the prophecies you believe are still future. I do not believe any you have listed will withstand careful scrutiny.

Jerusalem, even though it's religion was void as of AD 33, they still were judged being carnal in AD 66 through 73. But they have returned as basically the same religion, and Judaism has not yet been broken. ALL enemies have to be under Jesus' feet before the end comes, and Judaism is one of those.

I'm not trying to say that I have received some "secret doctrines", because I'm more intimate with Jesus than you....nah, nah, nah! LOL! I'm stating the fact that intimacy with the Lord is a very important part of Him showing things to us, and I wish I had more intimacy! I don't believe that the Word of God's revelation is a closed book as of 70 AD. God's Word is infinite, and the proof that it applies ahead to our time has been proven by none other than you in your book! It just hasn't been looked into enough.

God Bless Don

I too wish I had more intimacy, and I thank God you are aware of this very important truth. And I'm glad you laughed at my obviously silly suggestion that you had a "secret doctrine." It appears we are tracking well here.

I agree that God's Word is infinite, but that doesn't mean it contains the schematics of the digital circuits in my TV, and neither does it mean that it reveals some future plan for carnal Israel which appears to contradict the plain teaching of what was revealed.

I really enjoy digging into these questions with you Don. I hope you don't get frustrated with my stubborness. All I am asking for is solid doctrines derived and supported from the Bible. That's not too much to ask for is it? If the Bible really does teach a future plan for carnal Israel, please show me where.

God bless you, my brother!

Richard

[Brother Les]

eliyahu
Don't take this the wrong way Brother Les, but what is your point? I just do not see what you are trying to say.

The Gospel of God was to be inclusive to 'all the world'. The leaders of 'Israel/'Judah', made worshipping exclusive and restrictive, perverted....Being more concerned about 'the land' for 'them' (we were 'promised') than all of The World for God....'the land'was to be 'kept' at all 'costs'.... even to the point of selling their souls to other 'gods'. They were/are more concerned for a worldly possetion than a Heavenly one. Their 'land' promise is gone because God divorced/died to them and they can not come to term with that reality.

Rev 18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.


Rev 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

Rev 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong [is] the Lord God who judgeth her.


Jerusalem/Israel of 'today' are living in the past in their minds. They are demanding 'a' Promise is a Promise 'forever', not realising that God has kept His Promise and is 'still' Keeping His Promise to His elect. God has given, to His elect, 'not just Canann, but the whole wide world. This was done 2,000 years ago. People who are not The Elect of God, who are not 'Israel', are trying to claim something that was never theirs in the first place.


Lev 25:23 ¶ The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land [is] mine; for ye [are] strangers and sojourners with me.


'You' can never lay claim to something that was never given 'to you'.


Brother Les

[eliyahu]

Hi folks,
I have been considering what I might reply to a number of statements people have made and inquiries given to me about the Biblical evidence for unbelieving Jewish people having a current covenant relationship with God. This also covers an unfulfilled future plan for the Jewish people and the land of Israel. It is obvious that things I have posted have not "gotton through" to certain people. The same can be said of people who have posted to me or responded to my posts. We all have some strong faith in our views and that can be commendable. I am reading and researching that issue yet again. I am open to my being wrong about anything, though I have no reasons that were given to me to think I am wrong. I am, however, a limited human being and must therefor have diffidence and humility in everything .

Out of respect for you all and for God I am seeking to again either underscore and bolster my views of Israel or severly challenge them. Either I am wrong, y'all are, or we both are .

Until I am ready to address this again with you, I can discuss other related things like the millennium (how is it spelled?). I can tell that you, Richard, for one are a strong opponent to a future millennium. I am strongly the opposite. I will start another thread about it if I can.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi folks,
I have been considering what I might reply to a number of statements people have made and inquiries given to me about the Biblical evidence for unbelieving Jewish people having a current covenant relationship with God. This also covers an unfulfilled future plan for the Jewish people and the land of Israel. It is obvious that things I have posted have not "gotton through" to certain people. The same can be said of people who have posted to me or responded to my posts. We all have some strong faith in our views and that can be commendable. I am reading and researching that issue yet again. I am open to my being wrong about anything, though I have no reasons that were given to me to think I am wrong. I am, however, a limited human being and must therefor have diffidence and humility in everything .

Out of respect for you all and for God I am seeking to again either underscore and bolster my views of Israel or severly challenge them. Either I am wrong, y'all are, or we both are .

Until I am ready to address this again with you, I can discuss other related things like the millennium (how is it spelled?). I can tell that you, Richard, for one are a strong opponent to a future millennium. I am strongly the opposite. I will start another thread about it if I can.

Hello my brother Eliyahu!

I love your attitude, and hope we all can be willing to seek the truth regardless of who amongst us will be proven "right" or "wrong."

And I can assure you that we all feel like we are not "gettting through" sometimes. It can be frustrating ... and I am thankful for your perserverence.

As for unbelieving "Jews" having a covenant relation with God - how can that be true? The covenant was always a covenant of faith. If a Jew under the Old Covenant refused to abide by the covenant, he would be cut off from his people. And that's exactly how it is with the New Covenant that God made with the whole house of Israel - so now they either abide by the covenant God made with them, or they are cut off. How can you fail to agree with this? Is it not the most obvious and basic biblical teaching that we see everywhere in the Bible from Gen 17 on?

I'll check out your other thread on the Millennium ....

Richard

[Brother Les]

Brother eliyahu
We are 2,000 year removed from the Scriptural New Testament writings. 2,000 years from the possiabilty that my fore fathers may have worshiped at the Temple. If at that time period of Pentecost my Jewish fore fathers were with Peter when The Holy Spirit came down, and Saved 3,000. If my fore Fathers worshiped with the Jerusalem Church, which also kept all of the Holy Feasts of The Lord and Worshiped at The Temple. My fore Fathers would have believed in Jesus CHrist as The Messiah and at the same time kept 'all' of the Mosaic Covenant Law....This is what Jesus commanded to do for all of those born under The Law of Moses. My fore Fathers as being a Sect of The Way, would have understood that when the Roman Armies had come to Jerusalem that it was time to flee The Earthly City of God. My Jewish fore Fathers, when they returned to Jerusalem from Pella and saw that it was plowed under, would understand that their 'old world' was gone...forever. My Jewish fore Father would understand that they could not worship under the Pharaseian led worship system that morphed (?) into what is called 'Judaism'...The Sadducean Sect was gone....The Priesthood had all been killed....My Jewish fore Father now understood what it really ment to be 'neither Jew or Greek', but only Christian....My fore Fathers Jewish nationality was tied to The Temple, to 'show' the world who he was....And that is the word that must be held up...."WAS"....for he was now 'a New Creation'...He was Christian...and only that....Christian....He could not 'go back' to something that was not there....something the had 'waxed old and faded away....Jeriamiah said, (paraphrase) "the Ark of The Covenant (old covenant), you will not visit it or see it or remember it NO MORE"....Yes, we 'remember' what it was and what it represented....an old covenant that has waxed old and faded away, never to return. We do not 'remember' it by worshiping any part of the system, type, styl, feast days, ect. These my (our) fore Fathers did in preparing for 'The New Age'...The New Covenant Age...Peoples paradiyms change...just as my fore Father paradiym had to change...You want to believe so very much in the traditions and worship system that your are now in. I have been in one of those 'systems' (denominations), and I believed that everyone one of those 'planks' and 'traditions', were correct. When I really started studying other 'traditions' and other 'paradiyms', I got what is termed..that 'deer in the headlight look'....when looking at other 'traditions', I could 'see' that 'this' tradition of 'theirs' was not right and 'this traditions' of 'theirs' was not 'right'....But when I 'looked' at what 'they' would 'say' about 'my tradition' and use Scripture... I would 'see' that 'MY' 'tradition' was not 'right' in 'some' matters'....and in thinking if...'one or two' 'things' do not 'match up'....What else does not follow Scripture, in 'my paradiym'? It made me understand so much more that Scripture has to inturpet Scripture and that I can not 'read' Scripture' as a from the United States, 2008. I have to read The Bible, as a First Century Hebrew, 'coming in Judgment' in THAT Day, AGE....


Blessings
Brother Les


Brother Les

[Brother Les]

Brother eliyahu
We are 2,000 year removed from the Scriptural New Testament writings. 2,000 years from the possiabilty that my fore fathers may have worshiped at the Temple. If at that time period of Pentecost my Jewish fore fathers were with Peter when The Holy Spirit came down, and Saved 3,000. If my fore Fathers worshiped with the Jerusalem Church, which also kept all of the Holy Feasts of The Lord and Worshiped at The Temple. My fore Fathers would have believed in Jesus CHrist as The Messiah and at the same time kept 'all' of the Mosaic Covenant Law....This is what Jesus commanded to do for all of those born under The Law of Moses. My fore Fathers as being a Sect of The Way, would have understood that when the Roman Armies had come to Jerusalem that it was time to flee The Earthly City of God. My Jewish fore Fathers, when they returned to Jerusalem from Pella and saw that it was plowed under, would understand that their 'old world' was gone...forever. My Jewish fore Father would understand that they could not worship under the Pharaseian led worship system that morphed (?) into what is called 'Judaism'...The Sadducean Sect was gone....The Priesthood had all been killed....My Jewish fore Father now understood what it really ment to be 'neither Jew or Greek', but only Christian....My fore Fathers Jewish nationality was tied to The Temple, to 'show' the world who he was....And that is the word that must be held up...."WAS"....for he was now 'a New Creation'...He was Christian...and only that....Christian....He could not 'go back' to something that was not there....something the had 'waxed old and faded away....Jeriamiah said, (paraphrase) "the Ark of The Covenant (old covenant), you will not visit it or see it or remember it NO MORE"....Yes, we 'remember' what it was and what it represented....an old covenant that has waxed old and faded away, never to return. We do not 'remember' it by worshiping any part of the system, type, styl, feast days, ect. These my (our) fore Fathers did in preparing for 'The New Age'...The New Covenant Age...Peoples paradiyms change...just as my fore Father paradiym had to change...


Brother Les