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  1. #31
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    Eze 20:38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD.


    Eze 20:39 ¶ As for you, O house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; Go ye, serve ye every one his idols, and hereafter [also], if ye will not hearken unto me: but pollute ye my holy name no more with your gifts, and with your idols.


    Eze 20:40 For in mine holy mountain, in the mountain of the height of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, there shall all the house of Israel, all of them in the land, serve me: there will I accept them, and there will I require your offerings, and the firstfruits of your oblations, with all your holy things.


    Eze 20:41 I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen.

    Eze 20:42 And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country [for] the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers.




    This is not 'The House of Judah'....This is 'The House of Israel', which is the Northen Tribes of Samaria. These 'Sons of Abraham' were brought out from among the Heathen (former Assyrian empire) and into 'The Body' of The Messiah in the first century. The Christian Jews of Judah and Christian Goyem of The Northern House of Israel', all blood heirs and sons of Abraham of 'The Flesh', came backtogether to rebuild the Tabernacle (House) of David (ie. all thirteen tribes). But there is no Salvation 'in the flesh', only The Spirit. This should help explain the words 'first to the Jew and then to the Gentile (goyem)...these are all true blood sons of Abraham, all heirs to The Promise.

    To state the 'Israel' is not 'The Church', just shows that you do not understand who all Israel is. The thought is just 'worldly' and not Spiritual



    Brother Les
    Last edited by Brother Les; 01-24-2008 at 06:47 AM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    The Christian Church (The Body of Christ) began with the believing remnant of ethnic Israel in the first century. That is not disputed.

    "Paul refers to them as the "remnant" in Romans 9-11."

    This is a point of dispute between us. So, here is where our beliefs differ.
    Good morning Joel!

    I am glad you are pursuing this. It's very helpful when you narrow down the conversation to the precise point of disagreement. Thanks!
    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    Up to the point of Romans 9:1, Paul has painstakingly outlined what has occurred in humanity. He has clarified in Chapter 8 that those who are "in Christ Jesus" have the unique distinction of having no condemnation (8:1), and are not subject to any separation whatsoever from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus (8:39).

    But, then, how is it possible that the remnant in the following three chapters is equal to the "Christian Church"?
    How is it not possible? Up through Romans 8 Paul was preaching the Gospel to Jew and Gentile alike. Then in Romans 9-11 he dealt with the difficult question of how God's Promises had not failed despite the fact that many Jews had rejected Christ. His answer was that God never intended to save every carnal son of Abraham, but rather only the ELECT, that is, the BELIEVING REMNANT of Israel.

    The whole point of Romans 9-11 concerns the salavation of Jews in Christ. Those who believed were Christians. Therefore, the believing remnant of Israel spoke of in Romans 9-11 refers to the first Christian Jews who defined the Christian Church.
    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    Paul is clearly not talking about the church when he opens this dialouge.
    Of course not! He also is not talking about the believing remnant of Israel when he opens that dialouge.
    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    He says in vese 3 (Ch. 9); For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: (4) Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; (5) Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

    That Israel is Israel. But, not all of them. Just because they are genetically connected does not mean that they are all "Israel". They must also be the children of promise (vs. 8).

    It is the "children of promise" of Israel that are the remnant according to the election of grace (11:5).
    Exactly correct! It is the "children of promise" of Israel that are the remnant according to the election of grace (11:5). That is what I have been saying. The children of promise are the remnant according to grace and they were the first Christians. Paul the natural born son of Israel made this explicit in Galatians 4:28 when he said "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise." You see Joel, this is the only possibility. In the beginning the Church was defined as the believing remnant of Israel. This was the Olive Tree into which believing Gentiles were later grafted.

    Do you not see the perfect coherence of all Scripture on this point? What has my interpretation left out?
    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    Where in the three chapters does He shift subjects and applies all of what he is saying to the "Christian Church"?
    He never shifted the topic. He was always talking about the body of believers, and how God's Word remained true despite the fact that many Jews had rejected Christ.

    The whole point of Romans 9-11 is that God had not rejected the Jews in such a way that they could not be saved in Christ. The Olive Tree analogy proves that he was talking about the Church, because he explicitly stated that you were in the Olive Tree if and only you believed in Christ. Is not the text perfectly lucid? Where is the ambiguity? The believing remnant of Israel was the nucleus of the Church (Olive Tree).
    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    He has clearly defined what applies to the "Christian Church" in the prior 8 chapters.
    The Christian Church was entirely Jewish in the beginning. The Gospel preached in Romans 1-8 applies to Jew and Gentile alike. The special application in Romans 9-11 was to explain in detail how God's Word had not failed despite the fact that not all Jews believed. The answer was that the believing remant of Israel were the first "branches" in the Olive Tree (Church), and that Gentiles could be grafted in through faith, and even Jews who had rejected Christ could repent and be grafted in. The whole section is just a futher application of the same Gospel message that had been preached in the first eight chapters. There is no distinction between Jews and Gentiles when it comes to salvation in Christ.
    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    Justification and reconciliation are at the heart of the matter. In Chapter 11, he applies the truth of the reconciliation to Israel. It is there being set aside that has affected the world because salvation to the nations is direct and no longer, at this time, coming through Israel as a channel of God's grace.

    Israel is not the "Christian Church". The remnant according to the election of grace in chapter 11 is not the "Christian Church".

    Joel
    The remnant according to grace were all Jewish BELIEVERS in Jesus Christ. And in the beginning, they were the ONLY believers in Jesus Christ. That means that the Christian Church was at first defined by them. This is confirmed in Hebrews 8 and Jeremiah 31 which declare that the New Covenant, which defines the Christian Church, was made with the House of Judah and the House of Israel. In my estimation, every Scripture that touches this issue confirms that the Christian Church is the continuation of the believing remnant of Israel. Is there any Scripture that this view does not adequately address? It seems to me to be a complete and a perfect understanding of the relation between the Church and Israel. I would be very much indebted if you could point out any weakness in it.

    Thanks Joel! It's great working with you on this.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Les View Post
    This is not 'The House of Judah'....This is 'The House of Israel', which is the Northen Tribes of Samaria. These 'Sons of Abraham' were brought out from among the Heathen (former Assyrian empire) and into 'The Body' of The Messiah in the first century. The Christian Jews of Judah and Christian Goyem of The Northern House of Israel', all blood heirs and sons of Abraham of 'The Flesh', came backtogether to rebuild the Tabernacle (House) of David (ie. all thirteen tribes). But there is no Salvation 'in the flesh', only The Spirit. This should help explain the words 'first to the Jew and then to the Gentile (goyem)...these are all true blood sons of Abraham, all heirs to The Promise.

    To state the 'Israel' is not 'The Church', just shows that you do not understand who all Israel is. The thought is just 'worldly' and not Spiritual

    Brother Les
    Very well stated Brother Les!


    I would add that the unification of the two houses in Christ at Pentecost fulfilled Ezekiel 37:
    Ezekiel 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, 2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. 3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. 4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. 9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. 11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you [PENTECOST!], and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. 15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, 16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: 17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. 18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these? 19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. 20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. 21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: [PENTECOST! Jews came from "every nation under heaven" ...] 22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king [CHRIST] shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: 23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them [THE GOSPEL!]: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. [FULFILLED IN THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH, 2 COR 6:16] 24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd [CHRIST]: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever [CHRIST]. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them [THE NEW COVENANT]: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. [FULFILLED IN THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH, the NEW JERUSALEM] 28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
    It seems to me that this interpretation perfectly coheres with every verse that touches this issue. I would be very much interested if anyone can find any refutation of this interpretation that can be sustained from Scripture.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard
    The whole point of Romans 9-11 concerns the salavation of Jews in Christ. Those who believed were Christians. Therefore, the believing remnant of Israel spoke of in Romans 9-11 refers to the first Christian Jews who defined the Christian Church.
    Richard, the salvation of the elected remnant of Israel in Romans 9-11 is surely a point, but not the whole point as you contend. Yes, the first Christian Jews were called out while the others rejected the gospel.

    The focus of the three chapters is the sovereignty of God in His dealings with the Israelites. This is where we have our differences. You say that the whole point of chapters 9-11 is salvation of the Jews who became Christians. I have no difference with you about the fact that a remnant of Jews believed and became a part of the church.

    Where we differ is that I do not see this as an end to them as a people as you seem to see it.

    The sovereignty of God's dealings with them is such that He makes choices according to His purposes. The remnant chosen then does not preclude the choice of yet others in the future who will fulfill yet another facet of His purposes.

    It was His choice that some were to be vessels of indignation, while others were to be vessels of mercy. This divine perogative may also be demonstrated in the future in a more outward and obvious manner when His indignation is visited upon humanity as depicted in the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

    Joel
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  5. #35
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    Lev 21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.


    Jerusalem is 'the daughter of mother Israel and she played 'The Whore' and those who did not 'come out' of 'Her', were burned....and stoned...


    Brother Les

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    Richard, the salvation of the elected remnant of Israel in Romans 9-11 is surely a point, but not the whole point as you contend. Yes, the first Christian Jews were called out while the others rejected the gospel.

    The focus of the three chapters is the sovereignty of God in His dealings with the Israelites. This is where we have our differences. You say that the whole point of chapters 9-11 is salvation of the Jews who became Christians. I have no difference with you about the fact that a remnant of Jews believed and became a part of the church.
    Hi Joel,

    Perhaps it would be helpful to come to an agreement about what the "point" of Romans 9-11 really is. I base my view on the fact that Paul begins with his heartbreaking agony for the salvation in Christ of his brethren after the flesh, and it ends by summing up his entire argument by saying that unbelieving Jews could be grafted back in to the Olive Tree (Church) if they converted to Christ, and that this would be the "manner" in which "all Israel will be saved." From beginning to end, the topic of Romans 9-11 is the salvation of Israel in Christ. I am not aware of anything in those chapters that says anything about a future role of ethnic Israel.

    As for your statement that "I have no difference with you about the fact that a remnant of Jews believed and became a part of the church." I note a serious misunderstanding in that statement. The first believing Jews did not become "a part of the church." They were the Church. The Church is God's New Covenant people, just like Israel was God's Old Covenant people. When the New Covenant came, the Old Covenant people either upgraded to the New and became Christians, or they were cut off just like a man who refused to adhere to the Old Covenant would have been cut off from that Covenant people back then.

    You seem to have a "three groups" view that sees humanity divided into Jews, Gentiles, and the Church. That does not seem to be the way the New Testament describes things. In the New Testament, you are either in Adam or in Christ. It means nothing if you are a Jew or Gentle.
    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    Where we differ is that I do not see this as an end to them as a people as you seem to see it.
    Does the Bible teach what you believe? If not, why do you believe it? If so, why do you not show me where it is taught?
    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    The sovereignty of God's dealings with them is such that He makes choices according to His purposes. The remnant chosen then does not preclude the choice of yet others in the future who will fulfill yet another facet of His purposes.
    Correct, it does not preclude it. But it also appears that God has not revealed anything about a "future remnant" that He may or may not (according to his sovereign choice) choose to use in "yet another facet of His purposes." So my question is this: if God has not revealed it in His Word, why teach or believe it?

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  7. #37
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    Thanks for this great discussion Richard and Joel. The understanding of what Scripture says about who modern day Israel is - or is not - is essential to getting one's eschatology correct. Your statement below, Richard, hits the nail on the head:

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    The first believing Jews did not become "a part of the church." They were the Church. The Church is God's New Covenant people, just like Israel was God's Old Covenant people. When the New Covenant came, the Old Covenant people either upgraded to the New and became Christians, or they were cut off just like a man who refused to adhere to the Old Covenant would have been cut off from that Covenant people back then.
    I have tried to explain this to some of my pre-mill dispy friends. I don't see ANY distinction taught under the NC other than believers and non-believers. Period. Followers of God during the transition from OC to NC were BY DEFINITION believers in Christ.

    We think too much today in terms of 'Christians' and 'Jews'. 'Two religions' as the world sees it. But it is really one smooth continuous faith in the one true God, who, at His appointed time in history, provided His Son as the Messiah - for all to accept - no matter their heritage.

    Geneology became irrelevent after Christ. And Paul gave us the olive tree and its branches as the perfect illustration. He describes only 2 kinds of branches. And, although a branch can be natural or grafted, it is only on the tree through faith in Christ - not based on it's original type.

    I can't find a single teaching of Jesus or the apostles that those who die rejecting Christ are separated into 2 catagories: Gentiles who are lost, and 'Jews' who will 'all be saved' sometime in the future. If that was true, why would the Gospel be brought to Israel so stridently by Jesus and the apostles? Why did John the Baptist cry out for them to 'Repent and be baptized'? Who was he warning about being burned up as the chaff if 'all Israel shall be saved'?

    Peace to you,
    Dave

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    Hi guys,

    Richard said:

    When the New Covenant came, the Old Covenant people either upgraded to the New and became Christians, or they were cut off just like a man who refused to adhere to the Old Covenant would have been cut off from that Covenant people back then.
    Upgrade is a very good way to explain this!

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    Where we differ is that I do not see this as an end to them as a people as you seem to see it.
    Hi Joel,
    Isn't it true that their distinction as 'a people', or a 'chosen people' was because they were under a covenant with God? If so, what covenant are they under today? My understanding is that there is only one covenant in existance today - the New Covenant - established in Christ. This is based on much Scripture (Heb 8:13 and Gal 4 to name a few).

    Some people today have traces of 'Hebrew' ancestry, but unless you can show that their covenant is still running concurrently along side the New Covenant, that ancestry has no relevence covenantally.

    Peace to you,
    Dave

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    Hi again,

    How many people know of where the Northern tribes dispersed to? I know, some of you may say, "What does it matter?" Well, it may go a long way for Joel and Richard's arguement. I see where Joel is not willing to cast aside the old promises. And I see where Richard is saying that the old promises were more or less swallowed up in the New Covenant. Les is correct in his statements too. But I've seen where God took care of the problem long ago, yet most of Christianity is blind to the resolution of it.

    The tribe of Judah, along with Benjamin were the only Jews left in the land at the time of Jesus. 126 years BC the Edomites were conquered by the John Hyrcanus of Judah, and he forced the Edomites to become Jews if they were to remain in their land. And the Edomites did just that, and Josephus says that the Edomites effectively became Jews. So the Jews of Jesus' day were a mixture of Judah , Benjamin, and the Edomites. The ten northern tribes had been out of the land of Israel for hundreds of years by then. They had dispersed from Assyria, and a large segment of them can be traced to Northern Europe and America. The Jews of the 1st century were finally almost eliminated.

    In Leviticus 26:40-43 God says that if they accept the punishment of their iniquity and humble themselves, and confess their iniquity, then God will remember the former covenants made with their fathers, including the land issue.(vs.42) BUT.... the people of Judah never have repented of this iniquity! God gave them Jesus, and they did not accept Him as a country or religion or people. So their Temple AND city, AND most of their people were destroyed, and they were driven off. They never repented of this, and God's Word says that the only way He will bless their return is AFTER repentance. So any Jew that has returned to the land has done so under their own fortitude WITHOUT God's blessing.

    Now in many scriptures, the Edomites are judged with bloodshed. Look at Isaiah 34:5-10, Obadiah, Malachi 1:1-4, and parts of Ezekiel 35 and 36. The only problem here, is that they have disappeared as a people and nation, without these prophecies being fulfilled! And these are some very serious judgments from God. BUT.....

    God has pulled a sneaky one on us all. The birthright and ownership of the land was taken by Jacob by trickery. It belonged to Esau (who the Edomites descended from), even though God hated him. But God honors His Word until laws are broken, not through trickery. So Esau still technically has claim to the land. What God has set up is this: The descendants of Jacob (the trickster) have dispersed into Europe, England and America, and the title to the Holy Land with them. The title always belongs to the head of the tribe, which in this case became Joseph's. The Holy Land has passed through many ownerships by military conquest since the 1st century. But eventually, Britain had claim to it in 1917. Britain is one of the places of the dispersion of the tribe of Joseph. The Judahites were never allowed back to the land according to Leviticus, but the descendants of Judah and the Edomites that had been swallowed up by Judah, returned to the land after WWII, and Britain allowed the ownership to pass to these people by rule of the UN in 1948. So here we have a twist, in that God has allowed the ownership of the land to pass back to Esau's descendants, AND the rebellious Judahites, from the descendant tribe of Joseph. So the Jacob Esau trickery has been reversed.

    Now I realize that many of you are going to cringe at this, because you have taken prophecy and squeezed it into a certain time period, and others, if they knew my address may wish to place a device under my car, but that's ok. I'm not anti-semitic! Read the prophecies about Edom. They have never been fulfilled! And the twist of the whole thing is that they are due judgment. And there are countries lining up right now to carry out this judgment. And they are developing nuclear weapons. Now some would say, "God has blessed the nation of Israel in their attainment of their country and in the wars that they have struggled through!" Well,...there's often only a slight difference between blessing and allowance, and only those with Spiritual discernment often see the difference.

    Another twist in this whole thing, is, that the REAL physical Israelites in blood line live among us as Christians already. I personally have spent a considerable amount of time tracing my own ancestry, and I have found that my lineage goes back to the Jews that went from Assyria all the way to modern day Spain, then to Ireland, and finally to America. So I found that I am one of the true Israelite, not only in Spirit through Jesus, but through blood also. So God is about to take care of a problem of rebellion and at the same time He has had the blood line thing solved for centuries already. The Jews in Israel are a rebellious people, living there without obeying God's law, and they are mixed with the descendants of Esau that God said He will judge! They have led Christianity to believe that Israel is owed to them, but in reality, the Jews there have no claim to that land whatsoever! The claim belongs to Esau once again.

    God Bless Don
    Last edited by Trumpet; 01-24-2008 at 10:29 PM.

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