Has God Forsaken His People?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Another twist in this whole thing, is, that the REAL physical Israelites in blood line live among us as Christians already. I personally have spent a considerable amount of time tracing my own ancestry, and I have found that my lineage goes back to the Jews that went from Assyria all the way to modern day Spain, then to Ireland, and finally to America. So I found that I am one of the true Israelite, not only in Spirit through Jesus, but through blood also.

Hey there Don,

You brought up a lot of very interesting ideas that I would like to discuss, but first I'd like to isolate this one point concerning the existence of "REAL physical Israelites in blood line living among us." I see an insuperable problem with that idea. Since the "Israelites" don't know who they are, they are freely interbreeding with Gentiles. This has been going on for over 2000 years, which means that everyone on the planet, except those who live in very isolated areas, are "REAL physical Israelites in blood line" - it's just that we all are only 0.000000000001% Israelite, and all the descendants of the "REAL physical Israelites" that were living 2000 years ago are now 99.9999999999% GENTILE.

A total genetic mix has happened. After the tribes of Israel lost their knowledge of their own identity they could not help but interbreed with Gentiles. They now have been genetically mixed with the Gentiles so thoroughly that the no longer exist as a separate genetic group. They have annihilated themselves by mixing with the Gentiles.

I would be very interested to know what you think of this point. In your research into your own genealogy, how many of your ancestors knew they were of Israel? How many were Gentiles? What percentage "Israelite" are you?

Richard

[Trumpet]

Hi Richard,
You are right. The geneological mix is quite thinned out by now. Probably close to what you have given. My lineage goes back through my grandmother, traceable to Ireland and a man called the Ui Maine Connacht, his last name Madden, who represented the Irish to King Henry the first. The Connacht were a people that came to Ireland some of which descended from people that came from the area of present day Spain, where many Jews had migrated. I have no evidence of the specific percentage of Israelite blood that I may have, but I use this only as an example of where some of the old 10 tribes migrated to.

[joel]

From beginning to end, the topic of Romans 9-11 is the salvation of Israel in Christ. I am not aware of anything in those chapters that says anything about a future role of ethnic Israel.

Let us be even more specific; service to God, serving God in such a way that He is magnified. He saves, so that proper service by the vessel can be attained.

If salvation is the final goal, then we are at the center of His plan.

Paul opens his Romans letter by stating the goal of his proclamation of the gospel to the nations; "....for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:" (Romans 1:5). He says in 1:9; For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of His Son,....

The Jewish people had the outward service as their portion in the Old Testament, but, they had not the inward.

We, now, have the inward, but have no outward formal service, even though the multi-faceted "service" of the "Christian church" is evident throughout the world, and continuing in time up til now.

We now have His spirit within us. This is the distinguishing feature of those of us of the nations who have been called out to serve Him in this era.

As we attempt to clearly state our beliefs, it is this area, service to God, where we differ.

Romans 9-11 speaks to me that Israel, which once had the service to God, has not been permanently "forsaken". To me, in contradistinction to you, the olive tree is symbolic of service. I do not disagree with you that service in this era is only through the body of Christ. Yes, that is a fact. Anyone, Jew or Greek, who is called into service now is called to see the saviour and believe what Paul has outlined in the first 8 chapters of his letter.

Paul discloses in Romans 9 that service to God can be both as a vessel of honour and as a vessel of dishonour. Through His vessels of "wrath", in which He reveals His power, He, by the delay of His revelation, reveals His longsuffering. (9:21-22).

He reveals "the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory." (9:23)

We, today, are the "vessels of mercy". 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles..

We, the called out vessels of mercy, are the "my people" which we formerly "not my people".

They, those who were "my people" in the former time "stumbled at the stumblingstone". They were offended at the gospel.

And, now, what has taken place was forseen by Moses...."I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you." (10:19).

And through Esaias was said; "I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me." (10:20).

But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away His people? God Forbid,....

He is calling today a remnant out of His people, Israel, to be members of the body of Christ.

They (Israel), as a people, are a vessel of indignation. There is no doubt that a very clear expression of this was domonstrated at 70 A.D. That is not disputed.
We, His body, are a vessel of mercy........by His sovereign choice, as a display of His mercy.

But, this does not prove that He is finished with them as a people. This, to me, is the burden of Paul's grief concerning them.

God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel,....(11:2).

God has still a very definite demonstration of His wrath but the body of Christ has not been called to experience this as His vessels of mercy.

It is not difficult for me to believe that God knows very well who are the elect of the twelve tribes of Israel who will be brought through the wrath that is to come.

This will demonstrate His power in a way heretofore held back.

Why? Because His covenant, His new covenant which is currently demonstrated in the Lord's Supper which is a celebration of His death, will be consummated with them when......"there shall come out of Zion the deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." (11:26b, 27).

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (11:29).

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all(11:32).

Joel

[eliyahu]

Hey there Don,

You brought up a lot of very interesting ideas that I would like to discuss, but first I'd like to isolate this one point concerning the existence of "REAL physical Israelites in blood line living among us." I see an insuperable problem with that idea. Since the "Israelites" don't know who they are, they are freely interbreeding with Gentiles. This has been going on for over 2000 years, which means that everyone on the planet, except those who live in very isolated areas, are "REAL physical Israelites in blood line" - it's just that we all are only 0.000000000001% Israelite, and all the descendants of the "REAL physical Israelites" that were living 2000 years ago are now 99.9999999999% GENTILE.

A total genetic mix has happened. After the tribes of Israel lost their knowledge of their own identity they could not help but interbreed with Gentiles. They now have been genetically mixed with the Gentiles so thoroughly that the no longer exist as a separate genetic group. They have annihilated themselves by mixing with the Gentiles.

Richard

Actually, it is an anti-Semitic and unscriptural fallacy to suggest that the Jewish people have bred out any "Jewishness" since AD 70. I know that this has happened to many Jews in various places since AD 70. No argument there. But, that Being said, there are a plenty of Jewish people and communities which have been preserved in many places. There has even been genetic studies done to years ago or so which isolated the Aaronic gene in order to genetically validate the descendants of Aaron. This exited those Jews who desire a reinstitution of the sacrificial cult. These tests were publisized in secular, western science magazines which I read about it in as well as religious publications.

Also the sabbath and the synagogoue has succeeded is preserving many Jewish commuities. Just examine the numerous small differences between Sephardic Judaism and Ashkenazi. Right there is evidence of long periods of independant cultutral development.

Jere 31:35-36 says "Thus says the LORD... who gives... the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar... "If this fixed order departs from before me... Then the offspring of Israel will cease from being a nation before me."

The heavenly bodies still light the night sky on a regular basis. Therefore we must conclude that there are genuinely Jewish people still alive and well today, totally distinct as Jews. Breeding does not eliminate Jewishness as long as circumcision is involved. A convert is Biblically Jewish. If my ancestors were Jews but then I, my parents and grandparents aren't even circucised as Jews than I am not Jewish; though I have some Jewishness in me. I can get complicated and controversial but my only point is that the Jewish people definitely exist as Jews and were never corporately and completely "bred out" at any point in time.

Another piece of evidence is the original development of the Talmud and Judaism.

Another piece is the study of Jewish and Christian history and how the church often persecuted Jews as a policy off and on in various places. Though Christianity eliminated almost everything of various kinds of European paganism, Judasim still survived both in Europe, Africa, the middle east and even in China!

[Trumpet]

Hi guys,

The main point in this insert of mine is not to prove that there are, or are not, full blooded Jews somewhere in the world. I believe that the majority of Jews have been bred into Gentiles, and that includes those that had the birthright to the land of Israel. The old tribe of Joseph. To try to prove who has it or where it may be now would be a never ending arguement, which I don't wish to pursue without more evidence.

My main point is the sin issue in the present country of Israel and religion of Judaism. They have sinned in that they refuse to accept God's provision of Jesus the Christ as their Messiah, and God said in Leviticus that He would not bless thier entry back into the Land unless they repent and turn from their ways. They HAVE NOT repented, yet have moved back to the land! This is rebellion!

Now it's also interesting that you bring up the Ashkenazi Jews, Eliyahu. These Jews are the ones from Eastern europe and their ancestry goes back to Ashkenaz, who was the grandson of Japheth in Genesis 10. Japheth had sons. Some their names were Gomer, Madai, Javan, Tiras, Tubal, Meshech and Magog. Gomer had sons who's names were Askenaz, Riphath, and Togarmah.

Now Gog in Hebrew is Gimel Vav Gimel. Richard has written a whole chapter in his Bible Wheel book on this third letter. In carries with it the meaning of humility, and giving among others, and it also carries the meaning of recompense. One of the other words is Gamal, which means exile.

When the Jews were exiled, they have never been called back to the land by God because of disobedience. They never obeyed God by receiving His Greatest Gift. God doesn't violate His own rules! The Jewish returning to the land of Israel in the mid and late 20th century was not God ordained. Without repenting of the sin that they have carried for almost 2000 years, they are in violation. But they came back anyway!

The letter Gimel relating to a camel shows humility in the way that a camel does it's work, and bows down to carry it's load. But in reverse, the camel that is rebellious and prideful and refuses to do it's work stands tall and FULL of pride. So in Gog of Ezekiel 38 and 39, we see Gimel in it's opposite meaning, not humble,and giving, but standing tall and full of pride and taking what it wants, and therefore deserving of the other meaning of the letter---RECOMPENSE!

Here we have a people, full of pride, in that they go to great ends to be proud of their heritage, even to the point of threatening others with retribution from God if we don't go along with their plans. And their plans are THEIR OWN not God's! So in Gog we see the letters, PRIDE - and - PRIDE. WE have been tricked into believing that these are an honorable people, conquering a land that rightfully belongs to them, but in reality we see a prideful people TAKING a land that is not God given. They are out of bounds and headed for recompense! And this, yes THIS VERY THING, is spoken of in Isaiah 34:8. This is what is coming...without repentance. This is the Controversy of Zion and a REAL look into the true Gog, which are the people that have pridefully invaded a land not given, and Ezekiel 38 and 39 is what has happened, but the conclusion of these 2 chapters is about to take place.

I'm going to post a letter recently sent to President Bush by representatives of the Jewish religion in Israel. Notice the threats that it imposes. Notice also how they call US Meshech and Tubal of Ezekiel 38! This is satan at his best, twisting the truth!
__________________________________________________ __________

8 Tevet, 5768 / January 6, 2008

In the Name of the Lord, Eternal God


To The Honorable Mr. George W. Bush,
President of the United States of America,

Who comes seeking the presence of the Most High God, to Jerusalem, city of God, Divinely chosen site of the Holy Temple, eternal capital of our land, "the joy of the entire earth (Psalms 48:3)," may it be rebuilt and established speedily and in our days, Amen!

Esteemed Mr. George W. Bush, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal (Ezekiel 38:1), leader of the west!

Upon your arrival in Jerusalem you have the ability to make a declaration, as did Cyrus, King of Persia - whose memory is honored - who in the year 538 BCE returned the exiled nations to their lands and recognized the full right of the Jewish people to reestablish their Holy Temple, the "house of prayer for all nations" (Isaiah 56:7), and called upon them to return to their land,

And in the manner of Lord James Balfour of England, who in 1917, called upon the Jews to reestablish a national homeland in the Land of Israel.

And thus if you truly desire peace and benevolence, and you would be counted in the company of the truly righteous, we call upon you to declare to all the world:

The Land of Israel was bequeathed to the nation of Israel by the Creator of the world. Neither could I, as a son of my faith, nor the Muslims according to their faith, ever take away even the slightest grain from the Eternal's gift, which He gave to His people Israel, the eternal people. Thus I call upon all the nations to save themselves from certain doom, to return and recognize That this land is the exclusive rightful inheritance of the people of Israel, as is written in the Torah of Israel, which constitutes the very foundation of our faith, as well as that of Islam; and is the basis for the decisions of the community of nations. He who denies this truth endangers all life on earth .

I shall dedicate all my strength and resources towards settling the Jewish people throughout their entire land. I shall greatly encourage and empower the Jews all over the world to rise up to the Land of Israel and to settle it, to establish God's sanctuary in Jerusalem, to distance strangers from it and thus, I believe, I will be making a major contribution towards world peace.

I cannot simultaneously support the establishment of a foreign state for an alien nation in the Land of Israel, and I will not lend my hand to this wrong.

Or - Heaven forbid - you can choose the second option - to willfully aid in the destruction, under the guise of peace!

You certainly know what the God of Israel did to Egypt and Assyria and to all Israel's enemies from time immemorial: Do you imagine that you will be able to save yourself if you have come to implement a plan that intends to steal the land of " the people that survived the sword" (Jeremiah 31:1), and to cut off those who survived the Holocaust, to rob the land that was given to them by the Creator?

All of the peace treaties and initiatives which have been based upon the decisions of the government of Israel, indeed the entire Oslo process, and the 'Disengagement,' and the establishment of a terrorist state within the Land of Israel known as 'Palestine' - regrettably, all of these agreements are the result of a lack of sufficient faith in the Divine promises that the Lord made to the patriarchs of our nation, and all that is written in the Torah of Israel.

Understand this well: the nations of the world cannot excuse their actions and their decisions on account of the weakness of Israel and her government. God ordained that the role of the nations of the world is to strengthen the nation of Israel. This will benefit all humanity and bring about world peace, as the prophets have foretold.

Do you imagine you can escape from the struggles in Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt, and Lebanon, by offering up sacrifices of the Jews who are slaughtered daily by their enemies who speak of peace but live by the sword?

Upon your arrival in our land we would anticipate that you bring Jonathan Pollard home with you. Bring him home to Israel. He is an emissary of the State of Israel, and he acted on behalf of our people. Authorize his immediate release while you are yet in Jerusalem, before you return to the United States. This will be a positive step that will build confidence.

Remember our forefather Abraham, who pursued the world's four greatest kings in order to redeem his nephew from captivity. We cannot forget the deeds of our patriarchs, whose example guides us through every generation.

We are the loyal representatives of the Jewish people, the New Jewish Congress, and its court of law, the Sanhedrin, as well as the Temple and Temple Mount movements, but we merely reiterate herein what is public knowledge.

No government in Israel and no representative of the Jewish people has the power or right to alter, by even the slightest degree, our covenant with God and the words of our holy Torah, which are everlasting, as expressed by the prophets of Israel and even by the wicked prophet Balaam: Then he looked on Amalek, and uttered his oracle, saying: 'First among the nations was Amalek, but its end is to perish for ever' (Numbers 24:20).

Thus any desire, plan or agreement that challenges the eternal sovereignty and active possession of the nation of Israel over her entire land is utterly worthless, and has no basis in reality.

Therefore it behooves you to declare: "I, George Bush, Commander in Chief of the armies of the United States of America, will instruct all of my troops to protect the Divine rights of the nation of Israel, and remove from her any threat. "

Before you is a choice: You can merit to eternal life, or be inscribed for eternal disgrace. Your fate and that of all those with you hangs in the balance of the destiny of our land. "and you shall choose life!" (Deut. 30:19).


In Sincere Supplication - In the name of the Jewish people


Rabbi A Even Yisrael Steinzaltz
The Sanhedrin

Dr. Gadi Eshel
The New Jewish Congress

Rabbi Chaim Richman
The Holy Temple and Temple Mount Movements
__________________________________________________ _____________

These are twisted statements and they are the fulfillment of a statement made by the Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

10) And with all deceivableness of unrigteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, (that Jesus is their Messiah), that they might be saved.
11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:(That they have been returned to the land by the blessing of God)
12) That they all might be damned who believed noot the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I believe that prayer for the people living in the Holy Land is in order, that at least some, if not all, will open their eyes to this deception before God's decree of judgment becomes a reality.

God Bless Don

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Actually, it is an anti-Semitic and unscriptural fallacy to suggest that the Jewish people have bred out any "Jewishness" since AD 70. I know that this has happened to many Jews in various places since AD 70. No argument there. But, that Being said, there are a plenty of Jewish people and communities which have been preserved in many places. There has even been genetic studies done to years ago or so which isolated the Aaronic gene in order to genetically validate the descendants of Aaron. This exited those Jews who desire a reinstitution of the sacrificial cult. These tests were publisized in secular, western science magazines which I read about it in as well as religious publications.

Also the sabbath and the synagogoue has succeeded is preserving many Jewish commuities. Just examine the numerous small differences between Sephardic Judaism and Ashkenazi. Right there is evidence of long periods of independant cultutral development.

Good morning Eliyahu, .

I think there has been a slight misunderstanding. I was not talking about the Jews who have retained knowledge of their Jewishness. They have indeed managed to remain genuine "Jews" to a large degree, and the Aaronic gene helps prove that. But I was talking about the northern ten tribes of Israel that were scattered and who lost thier tribal identities. They simply do not exist any more becuase once they lost their identities they could not help but interbreed with Gentiles, and once the interbreeding begins, it very very very quickly dilutes the bloodline until there is no genetic identity left.

As for the few groups scattered here and there that claim identity as one of the tribes. I agree that they could be decendants, but I deny that they have retained their tribal identities or genetic purity. Simply answer one question and you will see that this is the only logical solution. What percentage of your physcial ancestory must be of Israel for you to be considered "of Israel?" Given the nature of population dynamics, nearly evey person on the planet can trace their lineage back to one of the ten tribes! They are like a drop of ink that dispersed into an ocean of Gentiles and is now very uniformally distributed.

Jere 31:35-36 says "Thus says the LORD... who gives... the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar... "If this fixed order departs from before me... Then the offspring of Israel will cease from being a nation before me."

The heavenly bodies still light the night sky on a regular basis. Therefore we must conclude that there are genuinely Jewish people still alive and well today, totally distinct as Jews.

That passage can not be properly understood unless it is read in context. And what does the context say? It says that God is talking about Israel under the NEW COVENANT! Here it is:

Jeremiah 31:31-36 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [Fulfilled in the New Covenant Christian Church created by God from the first century Remnant of Israel] 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel [The New Covenant that defines the Christian Church was made with the Remnant of Israel.]; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [This prophecy was FULFILLED in the Christian Church, see 2 Cor 3:3, 6:16] 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. [This was fulfilled in the GOSPEL OF CHRIST.] 35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: 36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel [This defines the Christian Church, as it is written in Galatians 3:29: ye are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.] also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Remember that Christ denounced some of the literal seed of Abarham as sons of the devil! And John the Baptist said it was pointless for Jews to appeal to their natural heritage because God could raise up sons to Abraham from the stones on the ground. The Bible is perfectly clear on this point. In the prophecy of Jeremiah, the "seed of Israel" speaks specifically of the true Israel that God would eternally save in Christ through the Gospel. The context proves this with total certianty, and this understanding is confirmed by Christ Himself, by John the Baptist, and by the Apostle Paul. It is the biblical teaching. I see no ambiguity in it at all, and I see no support for the idea that Jeremiah was speaking about carnal Israel. Do you? Can you support your interpretation that Jeremiah was talking about the unbelieving Israel as opposed to the believing remnant? I say "as opposed to" because we KNOW that the believing remnant of first century Israel all entered into the New Covenant and so became Christians. Why should we think that Jeremiah was ignoring the true Israel of God who believed Him and was instead prophesying about the unbelievers that God said He would cut off from His New Covenant people?That idea seems to be upside-down and backwards. It makes no sense at all to think God was focusing on unbelieving carnal Israel in the very prophecy that defined the everlasting New Covenant Israel that had received everlasting salvation in the Jewish Messiah.

RIchard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard,
You are right. The geneological mix is quite thinned out by now. Probably close to what you have given. My lineage goes back through my grandmother, traceable to Ireland and a man called the Ui Maine Connacht, his last name Madden, who represented the Irish to King Henry the first. The Connacht were a people that came to Ireland some of which descended from people that came from the area of present day Spain, where many Jews had migrated. I have no evidence of the specific percentage of Israelite blood that I may have, but I use this only as an example of where some of the old 10 tribes migrated to.

Thanks Don, its very helpful to know the details. It doesn't look like your ancestory is really any different than anyone elses. The number of ancestors doubles with each generation (exponential growth), so before long they all overlap and everyone ends up having many common ancestors after a few dozen generations. It's inevitable because of the way people groups mix unless they are geographically or culturally isolated. But the ten tribes lost both their geographical and cultural isolation when they were dispersed into the sea of Gentiles, so they were unable to retain their identities as tribes and were swallowed up entirely and became Gentiles themselves.

So given this understand, what now do you think about your ancestory as opposed to that of others? Do you see my point about everybody being related to everybody else? If anyone went back far enough they would almost certainly find a son of Israel in their heritiage.

Richard

[Trumpet]

Hi Richard,

Yes, You're right about the ten tribes being pretty much genetically void. But I still believe that it is possible for the original birthright from the line of Joseph to be still intact by someone. I don't see why lineage corruption over time has anything to do with it. Even Jesus' lineage had supposedly corrupt people in it's line. Just because we have lost the ability to know exactly who our descendants are, doesn't mean that God doesn't know the lineage. As far as we know, this birthright still belongs to Joseph's lineage, and only God would know who he has chosen to be considered the receiver of that. I'm sure that even the one who holds the birthright doesn't even know that he has it. I'm only saying this because God has not removed the birthright from the line of Joseph. I'm not trying to find this person either, I'm just saying he exists somewhere. It may even be that God considers a whole corporate group of people as holders of this birthright. This may be why in scripture, in some prophecies of Jacob and Joseph, the present body of Christ fits the scheme. Only God knows for sure. (I'll let you know if He wispers the answer as to who holds the birthright, in my ear!)

So in conclusion, I agree that the bloodline has been dispersed to the point that it can't be traced as we know it. But I don't agree that the birthright had disappeared through this process. It just can't be shown by the knowledge that we have, as to where or with whom it belongs.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Let us be even more specific; service to God, serving God in such a way that He is magnified. He saves, so that proper service by the vessel can be attained.

If salvation is the final goal, then we are at the center of His plan.

Paul opens his Romans letter by stating the goal of his proclamation of the gospel to the nations; "....for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:" (Romans 1:5). He says in 1:9; For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of His Son,....

The Jewish people had the outward service as their portion in the Old Testament, but, they had not the inward.

We, now, have the inward, but have no outward formal service, even though the multi-faceted "service" of the "Christian church" is evident throughout the world, and continuing in time up til now.

We now have His spirit within us. This is the distinguishing feature of those of us of the nations who have been called out to serve Him in this era.

As we attempt to clearly state our beliefs, it is this area, service to God, where we differ.

As always Joel, it is very helpful to narrow things down to the essential point of difference. Thanks!

Romans 9-11 speaks to me that Israel, which once had the service to God, has not been permanently "forsaken". To me, in contradistinction to you, the olive tree is symbolic of service. I do not disagree with you that service in this era is only through the body of Christ. Yes, that is a fact. Anyone, Jew or Greek, who is called into service now is called to see the saviour and believe what Paul has outlined in the first 8 chapters of his letter.

Yes, this is a point of difference, but I do not believe it is a point we should differ on. What I mean is, I think there really is clear biblical teaching here, and that all Christians should be able to agree upon it. It seems to me that the metaphor of the Olive Tree is used entirely and unambiguously as a symbol of the Covenant people of God in general, and with a special emphasis on the New Covenant people of God saved in Christ Jesus. How can we deny this point? The criterion of inclusion in the Olive Tree is identical to the criterion for inclusion in the Church. Peope are in or out of the Olive Tree based only on whether they believe God or not. The text says that "because of unbelief they were broken off" and that they could be grafted in again "if they abide not still in unbelief." I see nothing in the text that suggests that "the olive tree is symbolic of service." If you have faith in Christ, you are in. If you don't, you are out. It has nothing to do with service. That interpretation seem to me to be an awkward and unnatural invention that was required to force fit Romans 9-11 into the preconceived idea of a future for ethnic Israel that is demanded by futurist eschatology. No offense intended my friend! I'm just speaking plainly in hopes of come to the real truth.

Paul discloses in Romans 9 that service to God can be both as a vessel of honour and as a vessel of dishonour. Through His vessels of "wrath", in which He reveals His power, He, by the delay of His revelation, reveals His longsuffering. (9:21-22).

He reveals "the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory." (9:23)

We, today, are the "vessels of mercy". 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles..

How then is the Olive Tree a "symbol of service" if both those that are in and those that are out serve? Remember also that Pharaoh was a "vessel of wrath." He certainly was not in the Olive Tree.

We, the called out vessels of mercy, are the "my people" which we formerly "not my people".

They, those who were "my people" in the former time "stumbled at the stumblingstone". They were offended at the gospel.

And, now, what has taken place was forseen by Moses...."I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you." (10:19).

And through Esaias was said; "I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me." (10:20).

But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away His people? God Forbid,....

And what does that mean? The context explains it perfectly:

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Paul's point was to prove that God had not cast away His people in such a way that they could not be saved in Christ. That's why he used himself as an example. He was an Israelite and he was saved in Christ. Therefore, this proves that God had not "cast away" His people. I don't see anything in this passage that supports an ongoing "service" or "plan" for carnal Israel. Do you? If so, could you explain it to me?

He is calling today a remnant out of His people, Israel, to be members of the body of Christ.

Yes, and he is calling all Germans, and Irish, and Chinese, etc.

But to be really accurate, we know that He Himself denied that carnal Israel is "His people" when He said they are "not the children of God."


I also must challenge the idea that "He is calling today a remnant out of His people, Israel." That assumes that there is a "remnant" of Israel today, and that God still calls them "my people." But the text actually says this:

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time [in the first century] also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

And who was that first century remnant of Israel that Paul spoke of as having "the election of grace?" There is only one possible answer. They were the elect of Israel, which means they were Christians. This verse is explicitly refering to the first century Christian Israelites. I see no justification for us to apply it to modern times and peoples.

They (Israel), as a people, are a vessel of indignation. There is no doubt that a very clear expression of this was domonstrated at 70 A.D. That is not disputed.
We, His body, are a vessel of mercy........by His sovereign choice, as a display of His mercy.

But, this does not prove that He is finished with them as a people. This, to me, is the burden of Paul's grief concerning them.

God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel,....(11:2).

God has still a very definite demonstration of His wrath but the body of Christ has not been called to experience this as His vessels of mercy.

Paul was concerned for their salvation in Christ. There is nothing to indicate that God has a plan for them as an ethnic nation. It's perfectlhy ok for you to believe it - my assertion is only that it's not taught in the Bible.

It is not difficult for me to believe that God knows very well who are the elect of the twelve tribes of Israel who will be brought through the wrath that is to come.

It is impossible for me "to believe that God knows very well who are the elect of the twelve tribes of Israel" for the simple reason that there is nothing for God to know! The Twelve Tribes do not exist. They annihilated themselves by interbreeding with the Gentiles. Each time one of them mixed with a Gentile, their genetic heritage was cut in half, and the Gentiles became a little more Israelitish, so now the Gentiles as a whole are 0.00000000001% Israelitish and the Israelites are 99.99999999% Gentile. There is no "Israelite bloodline" for God to choose from --- unless you suppose that those who call themselves Jews and have been careful to interbreed only with others who call themselves Jews actually represent all twelve tribes. That's a possibility that I am willing to admit. But the idea that the ten tribes are still "out there" scattered around like so many seeds ready to be gathered must be rejected.

And now that I think about it I realize that this whole discussion about genetics is vain anyway because Israel is not defined by genetics but by COVENANT. Gentiles could enter in to the covenant and become real Jews. And now that the Old Covenant has passed away, there is no definition of "Jew" anymore. This is why many futurist like John Hagee (no, I'm not associating you with him, my friend) have fallen into the dual covenant heresy. They recognise that without a covenant, there is no defnition of a "Jew" or of "Israel" and so they teach that Old Covenant is still "valid."

This will demonstrate His power in a way heretofore held back.

Why? Because His covenant, His new covenant which is currently demonstrated in the Lord's Supper which is a celebration of His death, will be consummated with them when......"there shall come out of Zion the deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." (11:26b, 27).

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (11:29).

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all(11:32).

Joel

I believe that the "then shall come out of Zion" was fulfilled in the first coming of Christ. That was the whole point of Paul's preaching. The Messiah HAD COME in the first century to save the remnant of Israel.

Thanks for the excellent conversation Joel!

Richard

[Brother Les]

posted by Don

How many people know of where the Northern tribes dispersed to? I know, some of you may say, "What does it matter?" Well, it may go a long way for Joel and Richard's arguement. I see where Joel is not willing to cast aside the old promises. And I see where Richard is saying that the old promises were more or less swallowed up in the New Covenant. Les is correct in his statements too. But I've seen where God took care of the problem long ago, yet most of Christianity is blind to the resolution of it.

So the Jews of Jesus' day were a mixture of Judah , Benjamin, and the Edomites. The ten northern tribes had been out of the land of Israel for hundreds of years by then. They had dispersed from Assyria, and a large segment of them can be traced to Northern Europe and America. The Jews of the 1st century were finally almost eliminated.

Blessings to you Don. There is a 'sect' of Christians who call themselves 'The Idenity' movement. I do not advicate their teaching of 'The Disporia going through Europe and that the 'Anglo-Saxsons' are the 'pure' genetic make up of 'The Ten Northern Tribes'. They teach some 'truths' and then add a lot of reteric.

'A Remnent' of the Assiyrian disporia, came back to 'The Assembly', Body, -Church-, but many did not. There is a reason for the tern 'Lost Ten Tribes


Hsa 8:3 Israel (Northern Tribes) hath cast off [the thing that is] good: the enemy shall pursue him.


Hsa 8:4 They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew [it] not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.

Hsa 8:5 Thy calf,(their idol god) O Samaria, hath cast [thee] off; mine anger is kindled against them: how long [will it be] ere they attain to innocency?


Hsa 8:6 For from Israel [was] it also: the workman made it; therefore it [is] not God: but the calf of Samaria shall be broken in pieces.


Hsa 8:7 ¶ For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind: it hath no stalk: the bud shall yield no meal: if so be it yield, the strangers shall swallow it up.


Hsa 8:8 Israel (Northern Tribes)is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein [is] no pleasure.

Hsa 8:9 For they are gone up to Assyria, a wild ass alone by himself: Ephraim hath hired lovers. (Harlot Sister/Daughter, Samaira)


Hsa 8:10 Yea, though they have hired among the nations, now will I gather them, and they shall sorrow a little for the burden of the king of princes.


Hsa 8:11 ¶ Because Ephraim hath made many altars to sin, altars shall be unto him to sin.


Hsa 8:12 I have written to him the great things of my law, [but] they were counted as a strange thing.


Hsa 8:13 They sacrifice flesh [for] the sacrifices of mine offerings, and eat [it; but] the LORD accepteth them not; now will he remember their iniquity, and visit their sins: they shall return to Egypt.


Hsa 8:14 For Israel hath forgotten his Maker, and buildeth temples; and Judah hath multiplied fenced cities: but I will send a fire upon his cities, and it shall devour the palaces thereof.

eliyahu posted
Actually, it is an anti-Semitic and unscriptural fallacy to suggest that the Jewish people have bred out any "Jewishness" since AD 70. I know that this has happened to many Jews in various places since AD 70. No argument there. But, that Being said, there are a plenty of Jewish people and communities which have been preserved in many places. There has even been genetic studies done to years ago or so which isolated the Aaronic gene in order to genetically validate the descendants of Aaron. This exited those Jews who desire a reinstitution of the sacrificial cult. These tests were publisized in secular, western science magazines which I read about it in as well as religious publications.

The 'Covenants', were not made with only Judah (Jews of the Blooda of Abraham and prosylites), The 'Covenants' (Faith and Grace, Marriage Covenants) were made with Abraham, Issiac, Jacaob and his thirteen sons/tribes and to all procylites. Yes God, Divorced (put away), the Harlot Samaria, but by Levitical Law (Marriage Contract), God could not 'put away' Samaias sister whom God was also 'married' to. Her fate as a Harlot (Jerusalems), from the Levitical Law, was only death....either by burning or stoning....'She' was 'killed' by both methods.

Genetics (geneologies) may have meant something in Levitiacal Law and Priesthood (Marriage). But it means NOTHING now, as the Levitiacal Law, the AAonic Priesthood and The Old Mosaic (Marriage) Covenant are now just a history lesson.

Jer 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.


Jer 3:16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit [it]; neither shall [that] be done any more.

Jer 3:17 At that time they shall call (New Jerusalem, Beulah Land ..BL) Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.


Jer 3:18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.

This is New Covenant language about Beulah Land and the New Jerusalem


'The Church', ie. The Assembly, The Body of God, The Faithful Rement, were always in exsitance in one form or fashion, from Abram to this present day. 'The Church' was not some 'creation' that 'happened' in the First Century, as 'a' 'Sect' only....and 'sect' is just short for 'Section' or part.....which is what 'a' 'Remnent' is.

Trumpet posted
My main point is the sin issue in the present country of Israel and religion of Judaism. They have sinned in that they refuse to accept God's provision of Jesus the Christ as their Messiah, and God said in Leviticus that He would not bless thier entry back into the Land unless they repent and turn from their ways. They HAVE NOT repented, yet have moved back to the land! This is rebellion!

Mat 27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but [that] rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed [his] hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye [to it].


Mat 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood [be] on us, and on our children.

Mat 27:26 Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered [him] to be crucified.

I want to remind everyone that there is NO CURSE upon 'The Jews' today, any -more- or any -less-, that ANYONE else for rejecting Jesus Christ. The 'Judgment' of The Mosaic Law was passed and carried out in 70 AD

Mat 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood [be] on us, and on our children.

When it says 'children' it does not mean generation after generation...forever, to the end of time (the Bible says nothing about 'the end of time'), it means what is says...the children of the peole standing in front of Pilate. They could not take 'responceability for generations down the line, only their ('This Generation', first century) generation.

Brother Les