Has God Forsaken His People?

[eliyahu]

This is a slightly paraphrased excerpt from Our Hands Are Stained With Blood, The Tragic Story of the 'Church' and the Jewish People. Dr. Michael L. Brown. Destiny Image, 1992. pp118-126. He was the president of My Bible school and a teacher of mine. He is an author and a respected scholar known internationally. Read this and tell me what you think.

Has God Forsaken His people?

Some things are non-negotiable. God’s covenant with Israel is one of them. How could He have made Himself more clear?
He gave His oath to Abram, and reiterated it six more times to Abraham, to his son Isaac, and to his grandson Jacob. On one occasion,
'When God made His promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for Him to swear by, He sword by Himself. (Hebrews 6:13).'
Why did God speak so decisively? It was because He 'wanted to make the unchanging nature of His purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, [so] He confirmed it with an oath (Heb. 6:17).'
His covenant with Israel was reiterated through Moses, repeated b the prophets and rehearsed by the psalmists. Jesus Himself affirmed it ('but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.' He saith unto him, 'Which?' Jesus said, 'Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt
not bear false witness…' Mat 19:17-18.')Paul articulated it (Rom. 9-11) and the gates of the New Jerusalem announce it forever (Rev 22:11-12). God has chosen Israel as His covenant people.
What if Israel broke the covenant? What would then happen to them? Listen to these unmistakably clear truths:
'Though I completely destroy all the nations among which I scatter you, I will not completely destroy you. I will discipline you but only with justice; I will not let you go entirely unpunished. (Jer. 30:11).'
The exact same words are repeated in Jeremiah 46:28. God will completely destroy other nations, but He will not completely destroy Israel! He treats His people differently than He treats other people; they are judged more strictly, but they will never be wiped out.
No matter what Israel does, God will never forsake them as a distinct people who are His own. In Jeremiah 31:31-34, the Lord declares that He will make a new covenant with Israel and Judah. But He doesn’t stop there. It’s as if He’s saying, 'Now don’t get me wrong! Don’t think that this new covenant means that I’m abandoning My people. No!'
'Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and
the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night,
which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of
hosts is his name: 'If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then
the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for
ever.' Thus saith the LORD; 'If heaven above can be measured, and the
foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off
all the seed of Israel for all that they have done,'saith the LORD' (Jer. 31:35-37).
As long as there is a sun, moon, stars, earth and sea, there will be a distinct people of Israel-no matter what they do. It’s God’s promise! It’s true!
'Is Ephraim my dear son? Is he a pleasant child? For since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him,' saith the LORD.' (Jer 31:20).
Look at how relevant God’s word is to our day and age. For centuries the Church, in arrogance, because of ignorance, claimed that she alone as the true Israel, that she had replaced the ancient covenant people. The church taught that is was the Christians alone who were the true Jews. (How strange that these Christians were not claiming to be Jews during the Holocaust!) The Church taught emphatically that the physical people of Israel (those who were ethnically Jewish and those who joined the nation through conversion to Judaism) were eternally rejected.
This is not some worn-out old doctrine. It is on the increase again in our day. Yet the Lord is not surprised. Twenty-five hundred years ago, He already addressed this issue:
'Moreover the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, 'Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, ‘The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? Thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.’ Thus saith the LORD; 'If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.’' (Jer. 33:23-26).
People are still murmuring against Israel and despising the people and the nation. God’s answer is still the same: 'I will not reject them!'
What exactly is God’s promise to Abraham and his descendants? How long are His promises good? Psalm 105 has the answer for us.
'He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations. Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac; and confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant: Saying, 'Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance.’' (Psalm 105:8-11).
Did God make Himself clear?
The scripture speak of God’s 'covenant,' the 'word' He 'commanded'. His 'oath' He 'confirmed' as a decree forever, for a thousand generations, as an everlasting covenant. The Lord is trying to make a point!
Not only did He promise to bless Abraham and make him into a great nation; not only did He promise to multiply his seed; not only did He promise to make him the father of many nations; not only did He promise to bless those who blessed him and curse those who cursed him; He also promised Abraham the land of Canaan, with clearly defined borders, as an everlasting inheritance to his natural descendants- until this earth is no more.
Amazingly, some teachers have tried to get out of this perpetual land promise to Israel. They claim that in the New Testament, neither Jesus nor the apostles ever reiterate this particular aspect of the covenant. But why should they reiterate it? When almost all of the New Testament was being written, about one million Jews were living in the land, Jerusalem was the spiritual and national capitol and the Temple was still standing. And Jesus made it clear that, despite Jerusalem’s soon-coming destruction- a destruction that would last 'until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled'- He would come back to a Jewish Jerusalem (Luke 21:24, Mat. 23:37-39). Obviously Jews would be in the land!
But there is another reason why Jesus and the apostles never explicitly stress the land promise to their people. The specifics of God’s covenant with the patriarchs were so clearly stated in the Scriptures that it would have been a waste of words to repeal them all! David Brown, the respected nineteenth century Bible commentator, was correct when he said:
'What is permanent in the kingdom of God under the Old Testament is PRESUMED in the New.'
And let all believers who question Israel’s right to the Land, based on the New Testament, take note of this: The New Testament doesn’t state that Israel would be exiled from the Land either! Both of these Old Testament truths, Israel’s scattering and Israel’s regathering, are presumed in the New.
The covenant God made with Israel is just like the covenant He made with David. The Lord declared to David that He would establish a lasting dynasty for him:
'And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne
of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the
children of men: But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from
Saul, whom I put away before thee. And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever' (2 Sam. 7:12-16).
What a wonderful word! In spite of David’s terrible sin and Solomon’s tragic backsliding, in spite of the godlessness of Davidic kings like Ahaz and Manasseh, the kingdom would never be taken from His physical descendants.
When the kingdom was divided and God gave Jeroboam the ten northern tribes, He did so to humble David’s descendants, 'but not forever' (1 Kings 11:39). He still left one tribe with the sons of David,
'So that David My servant may always have a lamp before Me in Jerusalem, the city where I chose to put My name' (1 Kings 11:36).
God offered a lasting dynasty to Jeroboam and his dynasty on the condition that he keep the Lord’s statutes as David had done (1 Kings 11:38). But when Jeroboam failed to obey, his dynasty was wiped out completely, while the kingdom of David lived on. And it continues to live on today: the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords is a direct descendant of David! God was faithful to keep His word.
He is just as faithful to keep His word to Israel. His covenant with Abraham is just as unconditional and everlasting as His covenant with David. Read Genesis 15 carefully. In ancient days, that is how covenants were made. Sacrificial animals were cut in two and their severed bodies placed in two lines. Both parties entering into the covenant would then walk between the carcasses. By doing so they were symbolically saying, 'If I break this binding agreement, if I fail to uphold my side of the pact, then let me suffer the same fate that these animals have suffered.' But something was different in Genesis 15. Only God passed through the pieces! This was a one-way deal.
'And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, 'Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites' (Gen. 15:17-21).
The land belonged to other nations. But at the proper time it would be given to Abraham’s seed.
If they violated the terms of the covenant- especially as expressed through Moses- then they would be punished and even driven temporarily from the Land. But just as God’s word to David stands firm, His word to Abraham endures, no matter what Israel does. This is what he said through Moses. When the Israelites are
'And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God. But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.' (Lev. 26:44-45).
'And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall
be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you… When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he swear unto them.' (Deut. 4:27, 30-31).
Even Today, when
'As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on [our] account; [yet] as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.' (Rom. 11:28-29).
Could anything be more plain?
Right now the great majority of the Jewish people are 'enemies,' 'as far as the gospel is concerned.' They reject our message (the Orthodox Jews reject it most strongly), and some even actively oppose it. As individuals, they forfeit their covenant blessings when they turn from Jesus the Messiah. But as a people, they are still elect and loved 'on account of the patriarchs.' Otherwise, God’s promises have no meaning and election has no significance. 'Abraham, I’m swearing by myself, I’m putting My reputation on the line. I will bless your offspring always, no matter what. (But I may replace them with someone else one day!) That is not the Lord we serve.
God’s covenant with Abraham is just as unconditional and everlasting as (the new covenant we are partaking of.) The Lord 'saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy.' (Titus 3:5). Praise God, we were chosen by grace! But we are not the only recipients of God’s unmerited favor. To Israel, Moses said:
'The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.' (Deut. 7:7-8).
Sounds familiar doesn’t it? God’s covenants with Israel… are based on His promise, not our performance.
Old Testament Israel and the New Testament church both stood, and still stand, by grace. Both received God’s eternal promises. Together we make up the family of God: The faithful ones of Israel and the chosen ones from every nation become one new man out of the two, one body, one people.
'For through Him [Jesus] we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.' (Eph. 2:18).
Great is the wisdom of God.
This is not what the Muslims believe. It is a fundamental of the Koran that both Israel and the Church failed. Moses was a prophet. Jesus was a prophet. But Muhammad was the seal of the prophets, the messenger of the final revelation. The Jews are not the people of God- they failed! The Christians are not the people of God- they failed! It is the Muslims who are the people of God.
Of course, this is preposterous. But, in the event that you are still uncertain about the calling of Israel, consider this simple truth: if God could forsake Israel, in spite of His unconditional everlasting promises, then He could replace the Church! So, if you hold to a theology that says, 'God has forsaken physical Israel,' or 'The Church has replaced Israel,' you had better be extremely careful.
Maybe the Koran is right!

[Richard Amiel McGough]

This is a slightly paraphrased excerpt from Our Hands Are Stained With Blood, The Tragic Story of the 'Church' and the Jewish People. Dr. Michael L. Brown. Destiny Image, 1992. pp118-126. He was the president of My Bible school and a teacher of mine. He is an author and a respected scholar known internationally. Read this and tell me what you think.

Good morning again Eliyahu!

I'm glad you posted this. It is very helpful to have points of view clearly stated so we can discuss them and learn together. And this issue in particular has led to such overwhelming confusion in the church, I think it is very important to do a thorough study of it.

Has God Forsaken His people?

Some things are non-negotiable. God’s covenant with Israel is one of them. How could He have made Himself more clear?
He gave His oath to Abram, and reiterated it six more times to Abraham, to his son Isaac, and to his grandson Jacob. On one occasion,
'When God made His promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for Him to swear by, He sword by Himself. (Hebrews 6:13).'
Why did God speak so decisively? It was because He 'wanted to make the unchanging nature of His purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, [so] He confirmed it with an oath (Heb. 6:17).'
His covenant with Israel was reiterated through Moses, repeated b the prophets and rehearsed by the psalmists. Jesus Himself affirmed it ('but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.' He saith unto him, 'Which?' Jesus said, 'Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt
not bear false witness…' Mat 19:17-18.')Paul articulated it (Rom. 9-11) and the gates of the New Jerusalem announce it forever (Rev 22:11-12). God has chosen Israel as His covenant people.

I agree with everything written above. The only issue then is the identity of "Israel." The Bible is explicit that God gave no promises to carnal "Israel" - that is, people who could merely claim Abraham their ancestor in the flesh. The Bible is explicit that ONLY believers inherit the promises. Only branches in the Olive Tree inherit the promises. Every member of the Olvie Tree believes in Jesus, so the Olive Tree is the Church. As we will see, Dr. Brown's error is his confusion about the identity of Israel.

What if Israel broke the covenant? What would then happen to them? Listen to these unmistakably clear truths:
'Though I completely destroy all the nations among which I scatter you, I will not completely destroy you. I will discipline you but only with justice; I will not let you go entirely unpunished. (Jer. 30:11).'

That is correct. The REMNANT OF ISRAEL is the Christian Church, as prophesied by God through His OT Prophet Isaiah and then declared by God through His NT Prophet Paul:

Romans 9:27-28 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

And who was that remnant? Paul makes that clear in the beginning of that same chapter:

Romans 9:6-8 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The "remnant" that was "saved" in CHRIST JESUS are the "children of promise" like the Apostle Paul himself.

The exact same words are repeated in Jeremiah 46:28. God will completely destroy other nations, but He will not completely destroy Israel! He treats His people differently than He treats other people; they are judged more strictly, but they will never be wiped out.

Again - perfect agreement, except for Dr. Brown's insistence that God was speaking of carnal Israel. The "Israel" that God saved was the remnant of beleiving Israel that included Peter, Paul, John, Barnabus, Nathaniel, Matthew .... and all the first cerntury JEWS who believed the Gospel. to suggest otherwise is to diminish the whole Gospel message.

No matter what Israel does, God will never forsake them as a distinct people who are His own. In Jeremiah 31:31-34, the Lord declares that He will make a new covenant with Israel and Judah. But He doesn’t stop there. It’s as if He’s saying, 'Now don’t get me wrong! Don’t think that this new covenant means that I’m abandoning My people. No!'
'Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and
the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night,
which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of
hosts is his name: 'If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then
the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for
ever.' Thus saith the LORD; 'If heaven above can be measured, and the
foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off
all the seed of Israel for all that they have done,'saith the LORD' (Jer. 31:35-37).
As long as there is a sun, moon, stars, earth and sea, there will be a distinct people of Israel-no matter what they do. It’s God’s promise! It’s true!

Again, there is only one error. Dr. Brown falsely asserts that Jer 31 was talking about carnal Israel, when we know with absolute certainty that God was talking about the believing remnant that would receive the New Covenant faith in Jesus Christ and therefore become the True Israel,t the Christian Church, the Olive Tree, the branches attached to the Vine of Messaih Jesus Christ (John 15).

'Is Ephraim my dear son? Is he a pleasant child? For since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him,' saith the LORD.' (Jer 31:20).
Look at how relevant God’s word is to our day and age. For centuries the Church, in arrogance, because of ignorance, claimed that she alone as the true Israel, that she had replaced the ancient covenant people. The church taught that is was the Christians alone who were the true Jews. (How strange that these Christians were not claiming to be Jews during the Holocaust!) The Church taught emphatically that the physical people of Israel (those who were ethnically Jewish and those who joined the nation through conversion to Judaism) were eternally rejected.

That paragraph is filled with false and prejudicial statements. The genuine Church has never taught that she "replaced" Israel. That is a lie being foisted on people obsessed with carnal Israel. The TRUE DOCTRINE of the Church is that Israel became the Church. The Church did not "replace" Israel. The Church BEGAN >>>AS ISRAEL<<<. The Church is the BLOSSOMING of Israel. The Church was BORN within the womb of Israel. The Church is the believing REMNANT of Israel. There was no replacement. There was no replacement. There was no replacement. The doctrine of "replacement theology" is an error invented by false teachers preaching Carnal Israelitism.

The Church taught emphatically that the physical people of Israel (those who were ethnically Jewish and those who joined the nation through conversion to Judaism) were eternally rejected.

That is an exreme error and false accusation. The Church has NEVER taught that Jews could not be saved in Christ just like the Gentiles. Indeed, that was Paul's answer to the question "Has God cast away his people?" He answer NO! Look at me! I'm a Jew and I'm saved in Christ. So also shall all Israel be saved if they persist not in unbelief.

But the idea of a carnal salvation for ethnic Israel? The Bible knows nothing of that doctrine.

This is not some worn-out old doctrine. It is on the increase again in our day. Yet the Lord is not surprised. Twenty-five hundred years ago, He already addressed this issue:
'Moreover the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, 'Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, ‘The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? Thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.’ Thus saith the LORD; 'If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.’' (Jer. 33:23-26).

God has fulfilled that promise in Christ. He is the Inheritance of Israel. All the promises of God are fulfilled in Christ for Jew and Gentile alike. Carnal Israelitism denies the Gospel. It teaches that people are saved by ethnicity rather than faith. The primary error is that Dr. Brown focuses on the flesh.

ISRAEL HAS BEEN SAVED WITH EVERLASTING SALVATION IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.

And if some them don't believe? Does that make God a liar? GOD FORBID! His promises still stand. He has redeemed His People precisely as He promised!

People are still murmuring against Israel and despising the people and the nation. God’s answer is still the same: 'I will not reject them!'
What exactly is God’s promise to Abraham and his descendants? How long are His promises good? Psalm 105 has the answer for us.

Again, this is Dr. Brown's fundamental error. He thinks that all of Abraham's carnal descendants are "children of the promise." His theology is entriely, totall, and absolutely unbiblical. Indeed, his doctrine directly contradicts by the plain text of Holy Scripture in many passages.


John the Baptist refuted Carnal Israelitism:

Matthew 3:9-10 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

The Lord Jesus Christ refuted Carnal Israelism by identifying some men who were the literal "seed of Abraham" as sons of the devil:

John 8:31-46 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

And Paul refuted Carnal Israelitism when he too identified unbelieving carnal children of Abraham's flesh as NOT the children of God:

Romans 9:6-9 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

The WHOLE POINT of Romans 9 is too refute the false doctrine that God's promises failed because carnal members of ethnic Israel rejected the Gospel. Thus we see that Dr. Brown's fundamental argument is explicitly refuted by John Baptist as quoted in Matthew, the Lord Jesus Christ as quoted by John, and the Apostel Paul in the Book of Romans.

'He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations. Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac; and confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant: Saying, 'Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance.’' (Psalm 105:8-11).
Did God make Himself clear?

Yes, God has made Himself PERFECTLY CLEAR. The New Covenant is the Gospel of Jesus Christ and in HIM shall all Israel be saved.

The scripture speak of God’s 'covenant,' the 'word' He 'commanded'. His 'oath' He 'confirmed' as a decree forever, for a thousand generations, as an everlasting covenant. The Lord is trying to make a point!

Exactly correct! And what is that everlasting covenant? It is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Amen! In HIM God has kept His word. That is the WHOLE POIINT of Romans 9. That is why Paul began with the words: "But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel." (NASB) What could be more plain or obvious? Mere carnal ancestory means NOTHING to God. It has NOTHING to do with the Gospel. God Almighty anticipated the false arguments of Carnal Israelitism and has conclusively and exhaustively answered them in His Holy Word.

Not only did He promise to bless Abraham and make him into a great nation; not only did He promise to multiply his seed; not only did He promise to make him the father of many nations; not only did He promise to bless those who blessed him and curse those who cursed him; He also promised Abraham the land of Canaan, with clearly defined borders, as an everlasting inheritance to his natural descendants- until this earth is no more.

All those promises have been fulfilled. In Romans 4 Paul explicitly explains that the "father of many nations" was fulfilled in the Gospel, and Galatians 3 he explains that the promise that he would be a blessing to all nations was likewise a prophecy of the Gospel. The entire BIBLE is about the GOSPEL, not about some supposed promise for dirt in the Middle East.


And as for the land promises, the Bible declares that they were fulfilled:

Joshua 21:43-45 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. 44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. 45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Furthermore, the fact that God gave it does not mean that they had to accept it! God also gave them Jesus Christ, but they did not all accept that gift.

Richard

[basilfo]

A few questions for anyone believing modern 'Jews' living in Israel today are still God's 'chosen people' and will ALL be saved as Rom 11:26 says:

1. Can Jews today die rejecting Christ and be saved at any point after their physical death? Can any non-Jew be saved in this way? What chap/verse states this?

2. Why did John the Baptist and the apostles and Jesus go to such lengths in their teaching recorded in the NT to explain to the Jews that 'Abraham is our father' doesn't cut it if Jews remain God's chosen people.

3. When the nation of Israel was God's chosen people, did God ever regather them back to their land without repentance and belief and guidance of a prophet(s)? Why is the formation of secular Israel in 1948 totally void of repentance and obedience of any Jew if it is significant in God's plan? (Christians of 'Jewish' decent by definition are not 'Israel' - they don't have to be saved)

4. In Paul's Olive tree illustration of Rom 11, where is the caviat that the unbelieving branches that are removed still have a chance at salvation as long as they are natural (Jews)?

Peace to you,
Dave

[basilfo]

Another question would be:
5. Can a group of people be 'God's chosen people' without a covenant? Before Christ, whether they were obedient or not for periods of time, the nation of Israel was always under a covenant with God. Which covenant is today's "nation of Israel" under? What Scripture indicates that God has multiple, concurrent covenants running after Christ established the New Covenant?

[joel]

The REMNANT OF ISRAEL is the Christian Church, as prophesied by God through His OT Prophet Isaiah and then declared by God through His NT Prophet Paul:
Romans 9:27-28 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Either, what you said, Richard, is a correct interpretation of scripture, or, it is not.

I do not believe that; remant of Israel = the Christian Church.

Of all the times Israel is used in both the old and new Testaments, where does it say this?

The church which is His body, is a new creation. It is not of the old creation.

As long as God is continuing to deal with the old humanity in all of its varied forms, Israel will be a part of it.

At present, they have been "apobole", not "apotheomai".

Because they have been "cast away" (apobole), the kosmos has experienced a change (katallage). But, they will be received back when God has yet more to accomplish through them. God has not "cast his people away" (apotheomai).

To say that the church, which is His body, is the remnant of Israel is to link the new creation with the old.

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The REMNANT OF ISRAEL is the Christian Church, as prophesied by God through His OT Prophet Isaiah and then declared by God through His NT Prophet Paul:

Romans 9:27-28 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Either, what you said, Richard, is a correct interpretation of scripture, or, it is not.

I do not believe that; remant of Israel = the Christian Church.

Of all the times Israel is used in both the old and new Testaments, where does it say this?

Good morning Joel,


I'm really glad you chose to join this conversation. It looks like we need to come to an agreement about some basic terms in the Bible. Nearly two thousand years ago, the Apostle Paul wrote about a group called the "remnant" who were saved "according to the election of grace."

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Who was he talking about? Of what was the "remnant" a remnant of?

The church which is His body, is a new creation. It is not of the old creation.

Correct. But remember that every "new creature" created by God at Pentecost was a member of national Israel. They were the "remnant of Israel" that God had promised to save by faith in Christ. They were the remnant of Israel that was not broken off the Olive Tree. They were the Christian Church into which God later grafted in believing Gentiles.

As long as God is continuing to deal with the old humanity in all of its varied forms, Israel will be a part of it.

I see nothing to indicate that God is dealing with "old humanity in all of its varied forms." On the contrary, God finished that on the Cross, making one new man in Christ Jesus. Unbelieving ethnic Jews differ not one whit from an unbelieving Gentile, for God is no respector of persons.

At present, they have been "apobole", not "apotheomai".

Because they have been "cast away" (apobole), the kosmos has experienced a change (katallage). But, they will be received back when God has yet more to accomplish through them. God has not "cast his people away" (apotheomai).

That is correct. They are not apotheomai because they can be saved in Christ just like Paul or any Gentile. That's why Paul used himself as a proof that God had not "cast away" His people. Paul was proving that the crimes of the Jews against Christ did not put them outside of salvation, but that they too - like himself - could be saved in Christ through the Gospel and be grafted back into the Olive Tree and so be a member of the Body of Christ, the Christian Church.

I really hope you would like to dig deep on this issue Joel. It has been a persistent disagreement between us. I think we all would benefit if we could clarify out two points of view.

God bless,

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Another question would be:
5. Can a group of people be 'God's chosen people' without a covenant? Before Christ, whether they were obedient or not for periods of time, the nation of Israel was always under a covenant with God. Which covenant is today's "nation of Israel" under? What Scripture indicates that God has multiple, concurrent covenants running after Christ established the New Covenant?

It is my personal opinion that this is one of the most definitive arguments against the idea of a continuing "special status" of the Jews as "God's people." They are not in "covenant relationship" with Him because they broke the Old Covenant, and rejected the New Covenant!

Jeremiah 31:31-34 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [Fulfilled in the Christian Church, 2 Cor 6:16] 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Richard

[joel]

I really hope you would like to dig deep on this issue Joel. It has been a persistent disagreement between us. I think we all would benefit if we could clarify out two points of view.

I recall that we have resolved to do this before, but seem to get side-tracked.

I suggest that one on the places where we may "dig deep" is in Paul's explanation of "katalage", "katallaso" which only he discusses. That which is Romans, and that which is in II Corinthians, may be the discussion outline.

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I recall that we have resolved to do this before, but seem to get side-tracked.

I suggest that one on the places where we may "dig deep" is in Paul's explanation of "katalage", "katallaso" which only he discusses. That which is Romans, and that which is in II Corinthians, may be the discussion outline.

Joel

Well, I would hope we could discuss it on a more "common sense" level at first, and then dig into the Greek if we find it necessary because of a failure to agree on the "plain things."

How about if we start with an answer to my first question in my last post to you? Here it is again:

Nearly two thousand years ago, the Apostle Paul wrote about a group called the "remnant" who were saved "according to the election of grace."

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Who was he talking about? Of what was the "remnant" a remnant of?

I think it would help a lot if you could answer this question.

Thanks!

Richard

[basilfo]

Hi Joel,
I would be very interested in your answers to my questions a few posts above. Your answers would help me understand the concept of how modern day Israel fits or does not fit into God's plan for the world these days.
Thank you and God bless you Joel.

Dave