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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Mesa, Arizona
    Posts
    150
    Hi all,

    As I was studying today, I came across a few scriptures that put more bearing on this issue. I'd like to state what most probably already know, that the Old Covenant is not exactly the same thing as the Law. The OC was a system that has passed away and has been replaced by the New Covenant. But the law is still in effect, and always will be. I saw in Psalm 19:7, it says, "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.... In Romans 3:31 it says, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid:, yea, we establish the law." Then in Matt. 5:19, Jesus Himself says, "Whoever shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

    So the law still definitely applies to us, it's just that we can't keep it in our own power. And that's where I stated this:
    __________________________________________________ _____________
    Quote:
    "When I say that by following the Spirit we'll not violate any laws, it is because the Spirit won't lead us into sin. And I don't have to think about "Torah Keeping" or any other rules or regulations. It's like driving a car through a constuction zone. You keep your eyes on the road,(the Spirit), and you don't hit the cones along the sides of your car. Try watching the cones, (The Law), and see how hard it is to stay on the road!"
    __________________________________________________ ___________
    But let it be known, that hitting the cones, (i.e. breaking the law) is still an offense, and are things we continuously need to be aware of and repent of when we realize that we have violated them. Of course, as a sideline to this, we also need to realize that we need to know the spirit of the law in some cases. For instance, the issue of the Sabbath. We need to realize that in Jesus is the Sabbath, for He is Lord of the Sabbath, and Sabbath means resting in Him, not a resting on a certain day.

    I do believe that habitual offenders of the law will be punished by God as He sees fit. And I believe that correction by the law is good.

    God bless Don

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    1,028
    Trumpet posted
    Hi Dave,

    I thought that I had corrected my poor choice of words in another post since that first one. It was post #4.

    Without the New Covenant, there is NO justification. I see that's the way you see it too. What I was trying to say was that without the New, the Law will judge you. The Old Covenant was a method of salvation in that it looked forward to the blood of Jesus. It no longer works. No Jew can now be saved through that Old Covenant; it no longer has any effectual working power. All power of salvation now rests in the work of Jesus and His blood,
    The Sinai Covenant did Judge....'all received death'....none had a 'method of Salvation' when the Law was in effect.

    Trumpet Hi all,

    As I was studying today, I came across a few scriptures that put more bearing on this issue. I'd like to state what most probably already know, that the Old Covenant is not exactly the same thing as the Law. The OC was a system that has passed away and has been replaced by the New Covenant. But the law is still in effect, and always will be. I saw in Psalm 19:7, it says, "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.... In Romans 3:31 it says, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid:, yea, we establish the law." Then in Matt. 5:19, Jesus Himself says, "Whoever shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

    So the law still definitely applies to us, it's just that we can't keep it in our own power. And that's where I stated this:

    You may not realize it, but you are taking these verses out of the context that they were written in.

    Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple.
    Psa 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.


    Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


    Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence [is] fulness of joy; at thy right hand [there are] pleasures for evermore.
    Act 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:


    Act 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:


    Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


    Act 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.


    Act 2:29 Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.


    Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;


    Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

    King David knew the 'The Old Covenant Law' would roll his sins forward year after year....But it was not possable to have any type of Salvation, Resurrection, 'HOPE'...under 'the Law'....It was only with Jesus Christ 'Dying to The Law (30AD) and Judging 'the Law' (70 AD) that released King David from Sheol, under The New Covenant.

    Rom 3:29 [Is he] the God of the Jews only? [is he] not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

    Rom 3:30 Seeing [it is] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
    Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


    The Apostle Paul is preaching to the 'Roman' Church. We know that this Church is a 'mixed' Church. There are Gentiles (uncircumcised) and Jews (circumcision) Paul is teaching After 'The Cross', (the sacrifices have been made 'obsolete') But he is still teaching during the waining days of The Mosaic Age. The Jerusalem Church 'Sect' and the New Covenant Age began at Pentecost. (The 'Church', Assembly, rement, people of God, were always there from the first covenant to Abram.) The Temple Worship Cultus is fading and waxing old. But.....Jews, Being Born of The Law (Mosaic), must keep every Jot and tittle of that law (or absolutly none of it), until Heaven (the temple) and Earth (the people of The Land ie. Jerusalem and Judeah) fade away...The Gentiles were never 'under' The Law and Paul fought tooth and nail 'the Judeizer' (Christian Jews), from making Gentiles follow The Law of Moses "that our Fathers could not even bare"....Because Paul knew that that 'milestone' was 'about to vanish away'.

    Mat 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


    Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


    Jesus was 'born under The Law'....and He would die, 'under' and because of The Law....But we can see from these verses that He is talking to 'Jewish Believers'. These Jewish Believer would become the foundation and pillars of the Jerusalem Church. James said to Paul in the book of Acts, "we follow The Law'....Plus....Jesus Christ as the Messiah. But they all knew that "Heaven and Earth" would 'pass' at The End of The Age'....The Mosaic Age...when 'all things concerning Him were fulfilled'. The 'HOPE of Israel was,Judgement, Reconcileation, Resurrection 'From' The Dead....

    If 'The Judgment' has not happened, then all are still in Sheol and None (not Enoch or Elisha) have gone to Heaven.


    Brother Les

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Mesa, Arizona
    Posts
    150
    Hi Les,

    You must be coming out of Preterism??
    You said:
    King David knew the 'The Old Covenant Law' would roll his sins forward year after year....But it was not possable to have any type of Salvation, Resurrection, 'HOPE'...under 'the Law'....It was only with Jesus Christ 'Dying to The Law (30AD) and Judging 'the Law' (70 AD) that released King David from Sheol, under The New Covenant.
    I don't know where you got the statement about "rolling his sins forward year after year." I don't recall that being in my bible. But I do know that the Old Testament people had no hope of ever reaching salvation through the law. One of the things that the law did, was to show people that they couldn't uphold the law, and they needed a sacrifice to cover their sins. If they thought they could follow the law, they wouldn't have needed sacrifice. And "HOPE" is exactly what David had. He had promises from God, and he had hope and faith that God would accomplish them. The same with Abraham; he had faith that God would accomplish the promises, and it was counted to him "AS" righteousness. All the Old Testament people that were in the line of faith were justified in this way.

    Les:
    The Apostle Paul is preaching to the 'Roman' Church. We know that this Church is a 'mixed' Church. There are Gentiles (uncircumcised) and Jews (circumcision) Paul is teaching After 'The Cross', (the sacrifices have been made 'obsolete') But he is still teaching during the waining days of The Mosaic Age. The Jerusalem Church 'Sect' and the New Covenant Age began at Pentecost. (The 'Church', Assembly, rement, people of God, were always there from the first covenant to Abram.) The Temple Worship Cultus is fading and waxing old. But.....Jews, Being Born of The Law (Mosaic), must keep every Jot and tittle of that law (or absolutly none of it), until Heaven (the temple) and Earth (the people of The Land ie. Jerusalem and Judeah) fade away...The Gentiles were never 'under' The Law and Paul fought tooth and nail 'the Judeizer' (Christian Jews), from making Gentiles follow The Law of Moses "that our Fathers could not even bare"....Because Paul knew that that 'milestone' was 'about to vanish away'.
    Where did you get this???---> "The Temple Worship Cultus is fading and waxing old. But.....Jews, Being Born of The Law (Mosaic), must keep every Jot and tittle of that law (or absolutly none of it), until Heaven (the temple) and Earth (the people of The Land ie. Jerusalem and Judeah) fade away...

    The Jews never could, nor can they now, uphold the law! And Heaven and Earth are spoken of as a shadow portrail of the old Jewish system, but it's a shadow. The time between the Cross and the destruction of the Temple in AD70 has NO significance to salvation!! The Temple system was WORTHLESS from the time that Jesus sacrificed Himself. PERIOD! Paul was just trying to gather in those Jews that would go on with Jesus...Those that had ears to hear, and eyes to see. God gave the Jews 40 years to see and hear before He destroyed their worthless system. At the end of the 40 years, God visited Jerusalem to receive what was required of them. He was looking for the fruits of their system, but there were none; there could be none. He had the Romans destroy the place as a picture of what that place is worth....Nothing!
    If a Jew since then to now wants to follow God, he HAS to do it through faith in Jesus. Any Jew who believes in the religion of Judaism will show up at the White Throne Judgment without his name being in the book of life. There's no other way. And yes, if sheol is where they were (Enoch and Elijah), sheol is where they still are; but of course this is not taking into consideration special circumstances that may be present in those two circumstances. ALL the OT Saints, and ALL the NT Saints are still awaiting the Resurrection. It hasn't happened yet. If you have some concrete verifyable evidence to the contrary, please post it. This is an event that God would not allow to go unnoticed. Paul said that they will not be made perfect without us. Heb. 11:40

    God Bless Don

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    1,028
    Don posted.
    And "HOPE" is exactly what David had. He had promises from God, and he had hope and faith that God would accomplish them. The same with Abraham; he had faith that God would accomplish the promises, and it was counted to him "AS" righteousness. All the Old Testament people that were in the line of faith were justified in this way.

    Yes, David had 'Hope'...not in The Old Covenant ....but the New...

    Pro 13:12 Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but [when] the desire cometh, [it is] a tree of life.

    Quote:
    Les:
    The Apostle Paul is preaching to the 'Roman' Church. We know that this Church is a 'mixed' Church. There are Gentiles (uncircumcised) and Jews (circumcision) Paul is teaching After 'The Cross', (the sacrifices have been made 'obsolete') But he is still teaching during the waining days of The Mosaic Age. The Jerusalem Church 'Sect' and the New Covenant Age began at Pentecost. (The 'Church', Assembly, rement, people of God, were always there from the first covenant to Abram.) The Temple Worship Cultus is fading and waxing old. But.....Jews, Being Born of The Law (Mosaic), must keep every Jot and tittle of that law (or absolutly none of it), until Heaven (the temple) and Earth (the people of The Land ie. Jerusalem and Judeah) fade away...The Gentiles were never 'under' The Law and Paul fought tooth and nail 'the Judeizer' (Christian Jews), from making Gentiles follow The Law of Moses "that our Fathers could not even bare"....Because Paul knew that that 'milestone' was 'about to vanish away'.
    Where did you get this???---> "The Temple Worship Cultus is fading and waxing old. But.....Jews, Being Born of The Law (Mosaic), must keep every Jot and tittle of that law (or absolutly none of it), until Heaven (the temple) and Earth (the people of The Land ie. Jerusalem and Judeah) fade away...

    The Jews never could, nor can they now, uphold the law! And Heaven and Earth are spoken of as a shadow portrail of the old Jewish system, but it's a shadow. The time between the Cross and the destruction of the Temple in AD70 has NO significance to salvation!! The Temple system was WORTHLESS from the time that Jesus sacrificed Himself. PERIOD! Paul was just trying to gather in those Jews that would go on with Jesus...Those that had ears to hear, and eyes to see. God gave the Jews 40 years to see and hear before He destroyed their worthless system. At the end of the 40 years, God visited Jerusalem to receive what was required of them. He was looking for the fruits of their system, but there were none; there could be none. He had the Romans destroy the place as a picture of what that place is worth....Nothing!
    If a Jew since then to now wants to follow God, he HAS to do it through faith in Jesus. Any Jew who believes in the religion of Judaism will show up at the White Throne Judgment without his name being in the book of life. There's no other way. And yes, if sheol is where they were (Enoch and Elijah), sheol is where they still are; but of course this is not taking into consideration special circumstances that may be present in those two circumstances. ALL the OT Saints, and ALL the NT Saints are still awaiting the Resurrection. It hasn't happened yet. If you have some concrete verifyable evidence to the contrary, please post it. This is an event that God would not allow to go unnoticed. Paul said that they will not be made perfect without us. Heb. 11:40

    God Bless Don



    Where did I 'get this'?.....Read Acts...the second 'Jerusalem conference'....the Jerusalem Church was 'still' keeping The Law....+ Jesus. As Jesus said that 'The Law' (for Jews) would be in 'effect untill 'all was Fulfilled'...ie. The Temle and the City and nation were Judged, in 70AD...

    Pauls mission field was first to the Jew and then to the gentile. But scripture says that he was hassled so much by the 'Jews', that he kick the dirt off of his feet and never tried to teach them again. If they (the Jews) were around Paul would boldly speak, but his main mission was to the Gentiles and Peters was to the circumcision. Paul first started preaching in the synaguege (sp) on the Sabbath to the Jews and to the Gentiles on Sunday.

    Brother Les
    Last edited by Brother Les; 01-08-2008 at 01:57 PM.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Mesa, Arizona
    Posts
    150
    Hi Les,

    I guess I don't see any differences between us then.

    Don

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