Who are the Christadelphians?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Has anyone had any experience with the Christadelphians? Here is how they define their fundamental beliefs (I found this on on this page: http://www.christadelphian.org.uk/wcb/):

1. The Bible is God's word and the only message from him. It is without error, except for copying and translation errors. (2 Timothy 3:16, Hebrews 1:1. See also: The Bible, Why I Believe the Bible, and Alleged Biblical Errors.)
2. There is only one God - the Father. The Holy Spirit is God's power. (John 17:3, Luke 1:35, Deuteronomy 6:4. See also God, Jesus and the Crucifixion, and The Trinity.)
3. Jesus is the Son of God, and also the son of a human being, his mother Mary, so making him Son of Man. Jesus was tempted just like us because of this. But Jesus was not just a great man, he was the Son of the Most High God, and was perfect. (Luke 1:30-31, John 3:18.See also God, Jesus and the Crucifixion, and The Trinity)
4. Man is mortal, having no existence when dead. (Psalm 6:5, Isaiah 38:18, Acts 2:29,34)
5. By living a sinless life, ending with his sacrificial death by crucifixion, Jesus has opened the way of salvation from death. (Hebrews 4:15, 1 Corinthians 5:7, 1 Corinthians15: 20-23, Galatians 3:27-29)
6. Belief and baptism are essential steps to salvation. (Mark 16:16. See also Baptism and Salvation.)
7. God raised Jesus from death. Jesus is currently in Heaven, on God's right hand. He will one day return. (Acts 10:40, Romans 8:34, Acts 1:11)
8. When Jesus returns, he will raise his "sleeping" followers from death and grant immortality to the faithful who have tried to live by God's precepts. (1 Corinthians 15:20-22)
9. His followers will help him to rule, bringing justice, righteousness and peace to the whole world - the Kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 15:23-26)

The Christadelphians also believe that angels cannot sin and that there are no fallen angels, including the one commonly known as "Satan." As far as I know, the Christadelphians are the only Christian organization that has taught this doctrine. Does anyone know if any other group has ever taught this?

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

I think they used to have their own forum at their website. Maybe they don't have the forum anymore.
Edit: Ah, here it is: http://www.thechristadelphians.org/forums/

There is some 'futurist' dogma in their doctrinology and eschatology as compared to a preterist. They seem like another offshoot of the Ireneousian/futurist church which would, like the pharisees push off the kingdom of God from the present as evident in this statement.

We are confidently waiting for Christ to return to earth when he will set up the Kingdom of God.

And they mention the 'bible' as the word of God [with support from 2 Tim 3:16;] without a distinction between the 'scriptures' and the 'epistles' which we mentioned in the other thread.

May be some information here.
http://forums.carm.org/vbb/forumdisp...stadelphianism

[Timmy]

Hey ho,
Rock On oh my soul...ROCK ON.

Hi all.
This is only a fly-by right now.





Which Christadelphians be ye chatting 'bout?
Anyway, the one mentioned above is the most often recognized group.
(There are two though.)



Recall the "Jesus is not God" thred?

Hey David,
Everything has been checked on this end concerning the scriptures in comparison to the 400+ page book gone through--which really made Timmy wonder as a Proverb of Shlomo's clearly says in that "In many words sin is not lacking, but he who restrains his lips is wise" (10.19).

Comparatively, Christadelphianism remind much of a mix between Unitarianism, Jehovah's (false) Witnesses, and a tinge of Arian Nation tacked on for good measure. (What say ye?)

It appears --(what appear to be)-- many mistaken notions SEEM to stem from the use of the RSV over the actual greek texts
[or (at least) a more accurate english translation such as the HCSB or the ESV. . .
. . .and when it comes down to the Hebrew O.T., it is the greek that is to be based upon it and not vice versa].

BTW, JESUS IS GOD.
(Get Ready if you are reading this as the questions will begin in John (throughout the book, and cross-references to passages in this book. For your own better understanding of what the Gk. Textus Receptus is saying, using the H.C.S.B. will be to your own advantage. We can also compare the book if you wish.)...and we both could be wrong over various differences.)


Can we re-open that thread...as in, do you have the time presently?
Time here is mostly scheduled up, however, you could be notified at your inbox when there is time to carry on.


Sincerely,

Timmy

p.s. Current results with the windgen are great = 98+ volts D.C. with a 2+ m.p.h. wind.
The problem is harnessing all this power cheaply (w/o dumping ?unmeasured amounts? of the load) before we step up the electrical power produced, which should turn out to equal approximately 3x ( 98dcv)--to the third power as wind velocity increases.

[Timmy]

Aloha Big Kahuna, :hula smilie:

Has anyone had any experience with the Christadelphians? ...The Christadelphians also believe that angels cannot sin and that there are no fallen angels, including the one commonly known as "Satan." As far as I know, the Christadelphians are the only Christian organization that has taught this doctrine. Does anyone know if any other group has ever taught this?

Timmy cannot think of any right off-hand.

Do angels sin?
Perhaps not in terms as we humans understand, however, what is corruption/destruction if not the result of sin?


Mormons teach that Jesus and Satan are brothers.

The Free and Accepted (in higher degrees beyond 3) convolute the morning star for the bright and morning star, inferring that Jesus and Lucifer are one and the same. For further understanding. see the 23rd World Council, where in one speech (?poss. Uncle Albert?) there is the rhetoric concerning force and form in regard to Adonai and Lucifer. (It's a progressive revelation akin to certain forms of gnosticism: Archons and all that jazz.)


Sin is basically "doing what i think is best" irregardless of the consequences. Biblically, this came about through man's fall into the nature to sin. A man can easily enough chose the actions to be taken, but not neccesarily the results.

Angels act according to their nature=principl(e)--(ality) and the powers thereof,


Pride was in HYLL's (Lucifer's) makeup.
Man took on his nature (identification) through doing as.

It is here thought, that most (if not all) confusions religious stem from this mistaking one for the other in questioning, "Hath God really said?"

It's desired to look into this facet further...yesterday if possible, whether by simple recollection or retroactive enchantment "don't make me no never mind."


Tupencewise,

Timmy
(let the laughter begin)

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Aloha Big Kahuna, :hula smilie:

And greetings to thee, might-thee Timo-thee!

Timmy cannot think of any right off-hand.

Me neither. As far as I know, that doctrine is unique to that group.

Mormons teach that Jesus and Satan are brothers.

Mormon doctrines are totally ludicrous, made up by a known con-man.

The Free and Accepted (in higher degrees beyond 3) convolute the morning star for the bright and morning star, inferring that Jesus and Lucifer are one and the same. For further understanding. see the 23rd World Council, where in one speech (?poss. Uncle Albert?) there is the rhetoric concerning force and form in regard to Adonai and Lucifer. (It's a progressive revelation akin to certain forms of gnosticism: Archons and all that jazz.)

There is no being called "Lucifier" in the Bible. That's just a bad translation that the KJV copied from the Latin Vulgate. There is no "convolution" between the "morning star" and the "bright morning star." They are one and the same symbol - the planet Venus. Of particular interest is that the word "lucifer" used in Isaiah 14:12 (Vulgate) also appears in 2 Peter:

VUL 2 Peter 1:19 et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem cui bene facitis adtendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris

KJV 2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star [lucifer] arise in your hearts:

Wait till LUCIFER rises in your heart? That's what the Latin Vulgate - the authoritative version of the Bible for over a thousand years - says. Every preacher who teaches that "Lucifer" is a name of Satan reveals nothing but there gross ignorance of the most basic facts of Scripture. I find it to be quite a hoot?

Sin is basically "doing what i think is best" irregardless of the consequences. Biblically, this came about through man's fall into the nature to sin. A man can easily enough chose the actions to be taken, but not neccesarily the results.

There is no such thing as "sin nature" in the Bible. This is another one of the most obvious errors believed and taught by the vast majority of preachers. I explained this in one of my first threads on this forum called Sin Nature - the phlogiston of Christian Theology?.

The concept of "sin" itself is highly problematic, and your definition doesn't make sense to me. If doing what "I think is best" is wrong, what am I supposed to do, something I think is less than best?

I think you must have meant sin is "doing what you want irregardless of the consequences." But who does that (other than people who are so stupid they don't realize they inevitably suffer the consequences of their actions)? Smart people think about the consequences of their actions. Only a fool would "sin" in this way.

Angels act according to their nature=principl(e)--(ality) and the powers thereof,

Pride was in HYLL's (Lucifer's) makeup.

Man took on his nature (identification) through doing as.

The word HYLL does indeed have the connotation of boasting, and hence pride. But what's wrong with pride? The most fundamental values taught by Christianity seem to be Obedience and Self-loathing. It's hard to see the value in those values.

It is here thought, that most (if not all) confusions religious stem from this mistaking one for the other in questioning, "Hath God really said?"

But hath God given us any option but to question what he said? Look at the confusion spawned by the most faithful and devout students of the Bible. If anything can be said of the Bible, it is that God speaketh not with clarity therein.

It's desired to look into this facet further...yesterday if possible, whether by simple recollection or retroactive enchantment "don't make me no never mind."


Tupencewise,

Timmy
(let the laughter begin)

Great!

[Timmy]

And greetings to thee, might-thee Timo-thee!

BAKatCHA Dude.
The man from the purple sky re-signing in fer "ein bischien."

Timmy cannot think of any right off-hand.

Me neither. As far as I know, that doctrine is unique to that group.

Well, could we maybe contrive a new kultus?

Mormon doctrines are totally ludicrous, made up by a known con-man.

...as are many.

There is no being called "Lucifier" in the Bible. That's just a bad translation that the KJV copied from the Latin Vulgate. There is no "convolution" between the "morning star" and the "bright morning star." They are one and the same symbol - the planet Venus. Of particular interest is that the word "lucifer" used in Isaiah 14:12 (Vulgate) also appears in 2 Peter:

VUL 2 Peter 1:19 et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem cui bene facitis adtendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris

KJV 2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star [lucifer] arise in your hearts:

Wait till LUCIFER rises in your heart? That's what the Latin Vulgate - the authoritative version of the Bible for over a thousand years - says. Every preacher who teaches that "Lucifer" is a name of Satan reveals nothing but there gross ignorance of the most basic facts of Scripture. I find it to be quite a hoot?

Ya' know, for the very reasons you state, there was at first hesitation to use L as a name; however, HYLL was substituted as the Hebrew text of Isaiah accords/records.

There is no such thing as "sin nature" in the Bible. This is another one of the most obvious errors believed and taught by the vast majority of preachers. I explained this in one of my first threads on this forum called Sin Nature - the phlogiston of Christian Theology?.

The concept of "sin" itself is highly problematic, and your definition doesn't make sense to me. If doing what "I think is best" is wrong, what am I supposed to do, something I think is less than best?

I think you must have meant sin is "doing what you want irregardless of the consequences." But who does that (other than people who are so stupid they don't realize they inevitably suffer the consequences of their actions)? Smart people think about the consequences of their actions. Only a fool would "sin" in this way.

There are far fewer smart people than most think, and i myself am a big fool.

Reading the above and the "...-phligiston-..." article clarifies perhaps your personal stance as a naturalist, correct? Something like there has to be physically provable evidence, if not theoristically rational, or even sensibly rhetorical explanation for everything?

Mayhaps you can explain the reason that the standard model of the universe is a megalithic misrepresentation of reality, at best, only accounting for 25% of the gravity out there. This know fact reveals that there is 75% more than even the most adept and/or astute human scientists can 'naturally' prove--and that is the in-front-of-our-faces physical universe we are talking about.

At least we are better of than higher forms of pescetarian life, at best, recognize the 10% of their environs that concerns their survival: predator/prey/staples/etc.
Or are we--left to our own designings--much better off at all?

i did not say sin nature. Yet, "nature to sin" implies an inborn tendency, and is described in Greek with an (abstract) noun. To me, it seems quite grand to explain away that word "sin" as pnly an action when it is found in Greek text formed at times as a noun, and other times a verb...which causes wonder on how you can go about sidestepping Romans 5 ?????
1 Therefore, having been declared right by belief, we have peace with Elohim through our Master יהושע Messiah, 2 through whom also we have access by belief into this favour in which we stand, and we exult in the expectation of the esteem of Elohim.
3 And not only this, but we also exult in pressures, knowing that pressure works endurance; 4 and endurance, approvedness; and approvedness, expectation. 5 And expectation does not disappoint, because the love of Elohim has been poured out in our hearts by the Set-apart Spirit which was given to us. 6 For when we were still weak, Messiah in due time died for the wicked. 7 For one shall hardly die for a righteous one, though possibly for a good one someone would even have the courage to die. 8 But Elohim proves His own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Messiah died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been declared right by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if, being enemies, we were restored to favour with Elohim through the death of His Son, much more, having been restored to favour, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only this, but we also exult in Elohim through our Master יהושע Messiah, through whom we have now received the restoration to favour.
12 For this reason, even as through one man sin did enter into the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned – 13 for until the Torah, sin was in the world, but sin is not reckoned when there is no Torah. 14 But death reigned from Adam until Mosheh, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15 But the favourable gift is not like the trespass. For if by the one man’s trespass many died, much more the favour of Elohim, and the gift in favour of the one Man, יהושע Messiah, overflowed to many. 16 And the favourable gift is not as by one having sinned. For indeed the judgment was of one to condemnation, but the favourable gift is of many trespasses unto righteousness. 17 For if by the trespass of the one, death did reign through the one, much more those who receive the overflowing favour and the gift of righteousness shall reign in life through the One, יהושע Messiah.
18 So then, as through one trespass there resulted condemnation to all men, so also through one righteous act there resulted righteous-declaring of life to all men. 19 For as through the disobedience of one man many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the One many shall be made righteous.
20 And the Torah came in beside, so that the trespass would increase. But where sin increased, favour increased still more, 21 so that as sin did reign in death, even so favour might reign through righteousness to everlasting life through יהושע Messiah our Master.

From the article it seems there is recognition that to be "a horse" without submitting to G_d as rider, we sin. Mayhaps that analogy is too close to the steel triangle, but i myself once was "banana figue," even as my mamba warned others.

The word HYLL does indeed have the connotation of boasting, and hence pride. But what's wrong with pride? The most fundamental values taught by Christianity seem to be Obedience and Self-loathing. It's hard to see the value in those values.

Pride puts our nose so high at times, we fail have right attention over the very ground we walk on...and here we thought the value was freedom to choose what is most desirable with the consequences spelled out already.

But hath God given us any option but to question what he said? Look at the confusion spawned by the most faithful and devout students of the Bible. If anything can be said of the Bible, it is that God speaketh not with clarity therein

Maybe it is the students (who assume teaching) not speaking with clarity.
For example, look at the history Stephen gives concerning this in Acts 7: “Men, brothers and fathers, listen: The Elohim of esteem appeared to our father Avraham when he was in Aram Naharayim, before he dwelt in Ḥaran, 3 and said to him, ‘Come out of your land and from your relatives, and come here, into a land that I shall show you.’ 4 “Then he came out of the land of the Chaldeans and dwelt in Ḥaran. And from there, after the death of his father, He removed him to this land in which you now dwell. 5 “And He gave him no inheritance in it, not a foot of it. But He promised to give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child. 6 “And Elohim spoke in this way: that his seed would be sojourning in a foreign land, and that they would be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years. 7 ‘And the nation to whom they shall be enslaved, I shall judge,’ said Elohim, ‘and after that they shall come out and serve Me in this place.’ 8 “And He gave him the covenant of circumcision. And so he brought forth Yitsḥaq and circumcised him on the eighth day. And Yitsḥaq brought forth Ya῾aqov, and Ya῾aqov brought forth the twelve ancestors.
9 “And the ancestors, becoming jealous, sold Yosĕph into Mitsrayim. But Elohim was with him, 10 and delivered him out of all his afflictions, and gave him favour and wisdom before Pharaoh, sovereign of Mitsrayim. And he appointed him governor over Mitsrayim and all his house.
11 “Then a scarcity of food and great distress came over all the land of Mitsrayim and Kena‘an, and our fathers found no food. 12 “But Ya῾aqov heard that there was grain in Mitsrayim, and he sent out our fathers the first time, 13 and at the second time Yusĕph was made known to his brothers, and Yusĕph’s race became known to the Pharaoh. 14 “And Yusĕph sent and called his father Ya῾aqov and all his relatives to him, seventy-five people. 15 “And Ya῾aqov went down to Mitsrayim, and died, he and our fathers, 16 and they were brought over to Shekem and laid in the tomb that Avraham bought for a price of silver from the sons of Ḥamor, the father of Shekem.
17 “But as the time of the promise drew near which Elohim had sworn to Avraham, the people increased and multiplied in Mitsrayim 18 until another sovereign arose who did not know Yosĕph. 19 “Having dealt treacherously with our race, this one mistreated our fathers, making them expose their babies, so that they should not live. 20 “At that time Mosheh was born, and he was well-pleasing to Elohim. And he was reared three months in the house of his father. 21 “But when he was exposed, the daughter of Pharaoh took him up and reared him as her own son.
22 “And Mosheh was instructed in all the wisdom of the Mitsrites, and was mighty in words and works. 23 “And when he was forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brothers, the children of Yisra’ĕl. 24 “And seeing one of them being wronged, he defended and revenged him who was oppressed, smiting the Mitsrite. 25 “And he thought that his brothers would have understood that Elohim would give deliverance to them by his hand, but they did not understand. 26 “And the next day he appeared to two of them as they were fighting, and urged them to peace, saying, ‘Men, you are brothers, why do you wrong one another?’ 27 “But he who was wronging his neighbour pushed him away, saying, ‘Who made you a ruler and a judge over us? 28 ‘Do you wish to kill me as you killed the Mitsrite yesterday?’ 29 “And at this saying, Mosheh fled and became a sojourner in the land of Midyan, where he fathered two sons.
30 “And after forty years were completed, a Messenger of יהוה appeared to him in a flame of fire in a bush, in the wilderness of Mount Sinai. 31 “And Mosheh, seeing it, marvelled at the sight, and coming near to look, the voice of יהוה came to him, 32 saying, ‘I am the Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Avraham and the Elohim of Yitsḥaq and the Elohim of Ya῾aqov.’ And Mosheh trembled and did not have the courage to look. 33 ‘But יהוה said to him, “Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is set-apart ground. 34 “I have certainly seen the evil treatment of my people who are in Mitsrayim, and I have heard their groaning and have come down to deliver them. And now come, let Me send you to Mitsrayim.” ’ 35 “This Mosheh whom they had refused, saying, ‘Who made you a ruler and a judge?’ – this one Elohim sent to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the Messenger who appeared to him in the bush. 36 “This one led them out, after he had done wonders and signs in the land of Mitsrayim, and in the Red Sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
37 “This is the Mosheh who said to the children of Yisra’ĕl, ‘יהוה your Elohim shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear.’ 38 “This is he who was in the assembly in the wilderness with the Messenger who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received the living Words to give to us, 39 unto whom our fathers would not become obedient, but thrust away, and in their hearts they turned back to Mits-rayim, 40 saying to Aharon, ‘Make us mighty ones to go before us, for this Mosheh who led us out of the land of Mitsrayim, we do not know what has become of him.’ 41 “And they made a calf in those days, and brought an offering to the idol, and were rejoicing in the works of their own hands. 42 “So Elohim turned and gave them up to worship the host of the heaven, as it has been written in the book of the Prophets, ‘Did you bring slaughtered beasts and offerings unto Me during forty years in the wilderness, O house of Yisra’ĕl? 43 ‘And you took up the tent of Molek, and the star of your mighty one Kiyyun, images which you made to bow before them. Therefore I shall remove you beyond Baḇel.’
44 “The Tent of Witness was with our fathers in the wilderness, as He appointed, instructing Mosheh to make it according to the pattern that he had seen, 45 which our fathers, having received it in turn, also brought with Yehoshua into the land possessed by the gentiles, whom Elohim drove out before the face of our fathers until the days of Dawid, 46 who found favour before Elohim and asked to find a dwelling for the Elohim of Ya῾aqov, 47 but Shlomoh built Him a house. 48 “However, the Most High does not dwell in dwellings made with hands, as the prophet says: 49 ‘The heaven is My throne, and earth is My footstool. What house shall you build for Me? says יהוה, or what is the place of My rest? 50 ‘Has My hand not made all these?’
51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Set-apart Spirit, as your fathers did, you also do. 52 “Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who before announced the coming of the Righteous One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 who received the Torah as it was ordained by messengers, but did not watch over it.”

The problem is a focus on self-interest over the Creator's--(BLESSED BE THIS KING OVER ALL THE UNIVERSE FOREVER!)--designations for our permanence in a peaceful loving family relationship with Abba Yaweh.

We gotta' become as children or never see the Kingdom of God.

Could this be too simplistic?

The faith(fulness) of Yehoshu(v)ah Ha'Maschiach to Yaweh is a paradox to everything this kosmos says is the way to go: to live, die; to rule, serve; the poor (in spirit) are rich; give and then you recieve; be as the least and you will be great; maturity comes through dependence; etc.

This is the example the xian is supposed to follow, and not unlike the majority of Jews who missed their visitation the first time God was with them as a man, next time the whole of world-wide history will repeat itself the second time around.

Identifying with the faithfulness of Messiah is all about dependence and resting confidence in Elohim to deliver us, make us whole, and preserve us.
Anything else is not this faith(fulness).


This is the way being learned to live and a DIFFERENT understanding comes through this obedience. It is a walking talking kind of thing: of the head and the heart expressed through this soul in the living...and just one benefit is the greater revelation that comes as a result.


Just lernin',

Timmy

[David M]

Hello Timmy

I noticed in the listings your reply to this thread and so came to read. You are making a lot of sense and have quoted two powerful scriptures dealing with fundamentals.

We have to accept the teaching of God as a child. This is not to say we have to continue to understand scripture as a child, otherwise like Father Christmas we shall continue to believe he is real when he is not.

I look forward to more of your reasoning in this way.

The only problem with quoting passages from the Bible in our posts is we assume they will be read and understood in the way we understand them. These passages have to be thought about a lot to get the full importance of their message. The word of God can be very simple and yet at the same time very profound. It is not wrong to find the deeper meanings; (Luke 8:10) And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Once we know what the parables mean and this is only the milk of the word, we can then go on to eat the "meat of the word".

May God bless all of us for our sincere desire to find out the truth in what He has revealed through His inspired word.

All the best,

David