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  1. #11
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    Hi Beck, So, because Jesus was crucified, the way to the Holiest Place is now cleared for the Gentiles -- is that your read?

    Matt27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

    Ex26:33 And thou shalt hang up the vail under the taches, that thou mayest bring in thither within the vail the ark of the testimony: and the vail shall divide unto you between the holy place and the most holy.

    'Cause the veil was made of cloth (not rock), and it speaks of "the" veil -- not just one of two, but does vail/veil make any diff? .
    Last edited by duxrow; 08-19-2012 at 12:45 PM.
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    Hi Beck, So, because Jesus was crucified, the way to the Holiest Place is now cleared for the Gentiles -- is that your read?
    Yes that's right.
    Beck

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beck View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    Hi Beck, So, because Jesus was crucified, the way to the Holiest Place is now cleared for the Gentiles -- is that your read?
    Yes that's right.
    I will add my two cents worth.
    I always thought that it was the curtain to the Most Holy Place that was torn from top to bottom demonstrating that this was done by God.

    Unlike the pattern of the Tabernacle where the Most Holy Place could be entered once a year by the High Priest, Jesus has been able to enter the Most Holy Place for all time. I will continue to beef on about this but this demonstrates that Jesus has made it possible for a man of flesh a blood to end up in the presence of God and as the expression states; is seated at the right hand of God. Jesus is the way and proves that it is possible for all the believers who are flesh and blood to get to be in the position of being in the presence of God when as it is stated God will dwell with man. It is only because of our sinful state that we are kept separated from God.

    The resurrection of Jesus involved a transformation in which he was given an incorruptible body and the same body as will be given to believers at the resurrection. Therefore, this goes to show that as we who are flesh and blood will made like Jesus, and no longer subject to sin, we shall end up in His Kingdom and God will dwell with men. It should not be surprising that Jesus was born a man and was not God yet through his perfect life and sacrifice has made it possible for men of flesh and blood to dwell with God in the future.

    I do not believe Christ had any divine nature when he was born but he does now in that he is the first to be given the incorruptible nature. Whether we sin or not, just as Jesus was capable of dieing, so all flesh will die and therefore the transformation spoken about by the Apostle Paul must take place. Jesus was given a divine nature after the resurrection and was never divine in the presence of God from the beginning of time. On a time line from minus infinity to plus infinity, when the actual time of Jesus acquiring his divinity does not make much difference for Jesus is divine now for evermore.

    So in conclusion, Jesus is the first to enter the Most Holy Place to be permanently in God's presence, and the way has been opened up for the believers to be in God's presence.

    Incidentally, the practice of entering the Most Holy Place once a year might have continued in the Temple in Jerusalem, but was God's presence ever there? We know that with the Tabernacle, there was a cloud present whenever God's presence was there, but was there ever a sign that God's presence was in the Temple in Jerusalem? God's presence would not have been there afterwards that is for sure. It probably made no difference when and if the priests came to replace the curtain that the Most Holy Place of the Temple had been opened up, for God had no further use of a man-made temple.

    All the best,

    David

  4. #14
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    I do not believe Christ had any divine nature when he was born

    Hebrews 10:5 "When he cometh into the world, -- a body have you prepared for me". Also, Rom8:3, Phil 2:7.

    Otherwise very nice, David, easily worth more than a nickel!
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post

    I do not believe Christ had any divine nature when he was born
    Hebrews 10:5 "When he cometh into the world, -- a body have you prepared for me". Also, Rom8:3, Phil 2:7.

    Otherwise very nice, David, easily worth more than a nickel!
    Hello Bob
    I have read the verses you have given and I cannot find anything that says Jesus had a nature that was not like any other man or woman and had anything other than flesh and blood or any quality that was not already part of men's make up when he was born. Jesus was born by divine intervention in that God the Heaveny Father of Jesus fertilized the egg in Mary to produce the same fertilized egg that would be produced as if fertilized by a male sperm. The embryo that was produced had to grow and develop in the womb just like any other man gets born.

    Romans 8:3 says Jesus "condemned sin in the flesh", Jesus condemned sin while he was made of flesh. This is why the Son of God had to be of flesh and blood and the same as any other human in order to prove that flesh and blood could remain sinless. It would have been a cheat for Jesus to have been born anything different and superior to flesh and blood. It goes to show that there is nothing innately wrong with flesh and blood, only that flesh and blood cannot live forever without access to a "tree of life". We do not know the details of the transformation that took place in Jesus's body at resurrection. Jesus now has an incorruptible body, the same as we (who believe) shall be given; that is the only thing which is sufficient for us to know.

    God did not make His Son to appear any different to any other man. Jesus was an ordinary looking man. In fact, God did not give His son an appearance that was better than any man living and gave him an appearance that we should not desire (no reason to make us envious) his beauty.
    (Isaiah 53:2) For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

    The beauty of Jesus was on the inside. It is Jesus's humility that we should desire. Jesus knew that he had to do his Heavenly Father's will and having been given full access to all of God's power, Jesus could not use it for his own gain. In doing the will of God, Jesus forced himself by sheer will-power to be a servant to his Heavenly Father. Again, this shows that flesh and blood can have the willpower, but that in general all do not exercise their willpower to obey God.

    We should thank God for proving, and being vindicated by Jesus, that it was not a mistake to give humans freewill and make men and women of flesh and blood. This is the only way (if not spirit bodies and not made of matter (as we know it)) that God could have done it, and that must make us unique amongst all of God's universe.

    All the best

    David
    Last edited by David M; 08-21-2012 at 02:48 AM.

  6. #16
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    Think we're agreeing, David, but diff POV. I'm focussed on "Spirit, Soul, Body", and seeing Jesus in OT in the furnace with 3 hebrew children. So Jesus had a prior existence with the Father -- something you and I don't share. Yes, I believe he started like all of us, but was an extremely fast learner! You think?
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    Think we're agreeing, David, but diff POV. I'm focussed on "Spirit, Soul, Body", and seeing Jesus in OT in the furnace with 3 hebrew children. So Jesus had a prior existence with the Father -- something you and I don't share. Yes, I believe he started like all of us, but was an extremely fast learner! You think?
    Hello Bob
    We are digressing and maybe you would like to start a new thread on who the fourth person in the fiery furnace was. Since it was Nebuchadnezzar who said that the fourth person in the fiery furnace looked like the Son of God, how did Nebuchadnezzar know what the Son of God looked like? Jesus was a man with the expected appearance of a man, so anyone who saw Jesus would not have said he looked like the Son of God, because there was nothing to identify him as being any different to a man?

    I think the fourth person in the fiery furnace was an Angel of God sent to protect the three men. Since the title 'son of God' can apply to humans who are children of God and also of Angels, I think it is stretching the point to say that Jesus was in the fiery furnace. Since I do not believe Jesus existed at that time, there has to be another plausible explanation for who the fourth person was in the fiery furnace.

    Jesus we are told (Hebrews 5:8) Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Jesus learned by experience, I do not know Jesus learned any faster than we do. Jesus experienced suffering that we have not had to endure. As for learning the Word of God, Jesus spent over 20 years studying the Hebrew scriptures when not working in the carpenter's workshop. Jesus knew the scriptures very well and his recall of the scriptures was able to guide him when he was tested.

    Its great chatting.
    All the best,
    David


    All the best,

    David

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I will add my two cents worth.
    I always thought that it was the curtain to the Most Holy Place that was torn from top to bottom demonstrating that this was done by God.

    Unlike the pattern of the Tabernacle where the Most Holy Place could be entered once a year by the High Priest, Jesus has been able to enter the Most Holy Place for all time. I will continue to beef on about this but this demonstrates that Jesus has made it possible for a man of flesh a blood to end up in the presence of God and as the expression states; is seated at the right hand of God. Jesus is the way and proves that it is possible for all the believers who are flesh and blood to get to be in the position of being in the presence of God when as it is stated God will dwell with man. It is only because of our sinful state that we are kept separated from God.

    The resurrection of Jesus involved a transformation in which he was given an incorruptible body and the same body as will be given to believers at the resurrection. Therefore, this goes to show that as we who are flesh and blood will made like Jesus, and no longer subject to sin, we shall end up in His Kingdom and God will dwell with men. It should not be surprising that Jesus was born a man and was not God yet through his perfect life and sacrifice has made it possible for men of flesh and blood to dwell with God in the future.

    I do not believe Christ had any divine nature when he was born but he does now in that he is the first to be given the incorruptible nature. Whether we sin or not, just as Jesus was capable of dieing, so all flesh will die and therefore the transformation spoken about by the Apostle Paul must take place. Jesus was given a divine nature after the resurrection and was never divine in the presence of God from the beginning of time. On a time line from minus infinity to plus infinity, when the actual time of Jesus acquiring his divinity does not make much difference for Jesus is divine now for evermore.

    So in conclusion, Jesus is the first to enter the Most Holy Place to be permanently in God's presence, and the way has been opened up for the believers to be in God's presence.

    Incidentally, the practice of entering the Most Holy Place once a year might have continued in the Temple in Jerusalem, but was God's presence ever there? We know that with the Tabernacle, there was a cloud present whenever God's presence was there, but was there ever a sign that God's presence was in the Temple in Jerusalem? God's presence would not have been there afterwards that is for sure. It probably made no difference when and if the priests came to replace the curtain that the Most Holy Place of the Temple had been opened up, for God had no further use of a man-made temple.

    All the best,

    David
    Hi David,

    The reason I brought this subject up is becasue I like you have alway thought of the veil as being the dividing wall that was torn from up to bottom. I question that belief now. As it seems to me that 'middle wall of separation' that was torn down isn't referring to the veil of holy of hoiles, but rather the wall of partition in the temple by which the court of the Gentiles was separated from the court of the Jews. The Gentiles was never allowed into the tabernacle they stood on the outside the court yard of the Gentiles and if passed would have been killed. Jesus has broken down 'destoryed' that middle wall of separation which divided the Gentiles from the Jews. (Eph.2:15)
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Beck

  9. #19
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    Just noticing, Beck, that this 'Herod Temple' seems to have four pillars on the porch, and I'm wondering whether they had a reason to add the extra ones?
    I don't recognize it from Scripture -- the 2nd Temple being ordered thru Cyrus is my understanding. Ezra 1.
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    Just noticing, Beck, that this 'Herod Temple' seems to have four pillars on the porch, and I'm wondering whether they had a reason to add the extra ones?
    I don't recognize it from Scripture -- the 2nd Temple being ordered thru Cyrus is my understanding. Ezra 1.
    Yes as I recall the dimensions of the walls where larger so that two certains was needed. Herod often enlargered the complex with additions and these are just some. If i'm not mistaken Herod took his dimensions from Ezekiel's temple..at least some.
    Beck

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