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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi David,

    Seeking God's kingdom and righteousness has nothing to do with the reason I am discussing women's rights. The reason women's rights is a relevant issue is because of the lack of them in the Bible. A truly righteous god would never deny equality to women solely based on gender, which is exactly what Yahweh does.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Good morning Rose

    I see you have picked up on the one point and not answered any of the questions. If you believe that God exists, but not the God (as you understand) of the Bible, would you not want to be righteous in the sight of the god you can believe in?

    If woman had been created first and man second, then maybe we would be having the same discussion dealing with men's rights. The fact is, there is an order and a hierarchy as in any business. Business is not a perfect example; as we know that there is a lot of discrimination in business, but this is of men's making and has nothing to do with God. However, using this imperfect example the same can go for men as women. We might have the same capability to be the managing director of a company, but there can only be one managing director and the people at the bottom (men as well as women) can feel that they would like to have their turn at the top, but that cannot happen. Hence those who come to believe in God are taught to be content with their lot.

    I do not find the discrimination you claim about God. God judges people but is not discriminating between gender and God is not partial. There is an order and we have to accept the fact that God made male first. The ritual of purification for a woman giving birth to a male and a female and the difference in the ritual for a male is not grounds for saying God is discriminating about the persons born, whether they are male of female. They have their complimentary roles to play in the service of God, which you seem to be opposed to. There are many women in the church that accept their different roles, and do not see God as discriminating against them or denying them their rights. Men and women have equal rights and there is much evidence of this.

    In the law given to Moses, women are of equal value as men. I do not see that women are treated as inferior or have a lower value. Here are two examples;

    Even amongst God's chosen people, men were sold as slaves, so men are not elevated above women.
    (Deut 15:12) And if thy brother, an Hebrew man, or an Hebrew woman, be sold unto thee,

    Women could take the Nazarite vow, the same as men.
    (Numbers 6:2) When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the LORD:

    The text goes on talking in the male sense, but it is evident that both female and male are included. Maybe you object to women not having beards for the text goes on to say; All the days of the vow of his separation there shall no razor come upon his head; this includes a man's beard. For a woman her hair is " her crowning glory". That is why it is expected that a woman who comes into the presence of God during a formal service covers her head.
    Women (in general) are the fairer sex they are seen as beautiful and men are not. Is God discriminating against men in respect to beauty?

    The Bible reveals the good and the bad about the people chosen because they were descendants of Abraham, and God shows their warts and all. How the men treated women, does show bias in favor of men, but that is not what I see is according to God's will, and that is why I shall keep saying; "blame men and not God". The world is biased against women and in some quarters (like the quarter you are in) that is changing, and it is by your efforts and those who support you that women's rights are being restored.

    The Bible shows us the way the world is and teaches the faithful to avoid it. God does not approve of worldly ways and so God does not approve of discrimination and denial of women's rights. I am not denying that the Bible shows some abuse of women's rights, but attributing the cause to God is not correct.

    On a spiritual level, God wants faithful men AND WOMEN to separate themselves from the world. The world and its ways are enmity with God. Whether we are male or female, if we are faithful, we are expected to separate ourselves from the world. I fear that a lot of Christendom has not separated itself from the world. In a spiritual sense, male and female are the same and God looks at the core of a person's being and not whether they are male or female. Those who associate themselves with Christ are one in him and that was no different to those who separated themselves to be associated with God before Jesus came along.

    The faithful to God do not belong to the masses in this world. It is a fact and that is why Jesus said; "For many are called, but few are chosen".
    Percentage wise. it would not surprise me to find more women accepted into God's kingdom than men. Women have to be faithful to God and believe in Him and it is not different for men. To believe and be faithful is all that is required and it makes no difference whether a person is male of female. Reject this fact if you want, but it is your right, as a woman, to do so.

    All the best,

    David
    Last edited by David M; 08-17-2012 at 01:47 AM.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Good morning Richard

    I am interested to know what specific values you see the Bible as having.

    The Bible contains revealed words of God and also contains simple explanations to why we are here and how we came to exist and what is the purpose to life. It tells us what our future can be.

    Some call the Bible the 'Reference Manual to life'. It tells us how we should live and what to do and not do especially if we want to know how to have a peaceful and happy life.

    The reason the world is in the mess it is and suffers the problems it does, is because of man's unfaithfulness and disobedience and hate towards God.
    Hey there David,

    I'm planning on starting a thread on the topic of the "Value of the Bible" as time permits. It is a very rich book and has played a central role in the history of Western civilization and even the world. It's primary value seems to be that it contains some very clear expressions of the essence of morality being LOVE and the GOLDEN RULE (contrary to laws and ordinances which have nothing to do with true morality). And it paints an extraordinary picture of alienation and reconciliation. And it is filled with poetry and beauty beyond compare. The odd thing being that the beauty is mixed with a fair measure of irrational, cruel, and insane crap). It's so very human - who could fail to love it?

    It could be a kind of "revelation" from the divine mind but it certainly is nothing like what Christians want to think it is. It's more like Shakespeare in that it contains the heights of inspired visions of ultimate values like love and goodness even as it reveals the depths of darkness and unredeemed hatred and irrationality. It's very strange that it presents God as both good and evil, loving and hateful (if we retain the normal meanings of words). I can't agree that it "contains revealed words of God" because there is no evidence that the kind of God described in it's pages exists and there is much evidence that he does not. And worse, there is no even a consistent version of God presented in the pages of the Bible. The simplistic interpretation put forth by Christianity is, to me, obviously false.

    It most certainly is not a "reference manual to life." The instructions are too garbled for anything like that. Christians have never been able to agree what the instructions even say! And it certainly does not tell anyone "how to have a peaceful and happy life."

    It is an unfortunate fact that contrary to your assertion, most of the problems in this world are caused by people who think they love and are obeying God. Witness 9/11, the Crusades, and all the evil done in history in the name of religion.

    So, all the standard answers that Christians would give about the Bible seem childishly simplistic and totally wrong to me. But still, the Bible has tremendous value as a "mystical" book that also is a record of the metaphysical interpretations and speculations of our ancestors, and as such it gives tremendous insight into Archetypal Psychology. Sometimes it seems like a "magic mirror" that reveals the heart of the reader.

    And where do you get the idea that anyone has any "hate" for God? That seems absurd to me. I don't have any hate towards God at all. Would you say I "hate Allah" because I reject Islam? Of course not.

    Cheers!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I see you have picked up on the one point and not answered any of the questions. If you believe that God exists, but not the God (as you understand) of the Bible, would you not want to be righteous in the sight of the god you can believe in?
    The true God - whatever that word refers to - would not be hung up on artificial "righteousness" based on laws and ordinances. True righteousness is based on Love and the Golden Rule. Do that and you need not worry about anything else. That's the primary problem with the Bible - it teaches a false kind of righteousness.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Hey there David,
    And where do you get the idea that anyone has any "hate" for God? That seems absurd to me. I don't have any hate towards God at all. Would you say I "hate Allah" because I reject Islam? Of course not.
    Hello Richard
    God knows that there are people that hate him. I came across the following verse while looking something up; Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
    In the context of the verse, those who practice idolatry cannot love God. Maybe they hate complying with His instructions.

    God sees that He has enemies and enemies do not generally love one another.

    Deut 32: 41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

    All the best,

    David

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi David,

    I have a question. Is there anything contained in the Bible, as far as life's instructions go that cannot be found in other texts that were written before the Bible? Doesn't the "Golden Rule" pretty much cover everything we need to know about how to treat others?

    Rose
    Hello Rose
    Maybe there is but I need to be shown what other early writings contain say the Golden Rule. The earliest I can find this in the scriptures is the following verse.

    Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

    I will ask you Rose what other writings containing the Golden Rule predates the Book of Leviticus?

    All the best

    David

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    The true God - whatever that word refers to - would not be hung up on artificial "righteousness" based on laws and ordinances. True righteousness is based on Love and the Golden Rule. Do that and you need not worry about anything else. That's the primary problem with the Bible - it teaches a false kind of righteousness.
    Hello Richard

    I admit that as I have come to the conclusion God exists, it is my choice to accept God's instructions. I know because of what God promises that despite my failing to live perfectly to God's instructions, God is merciful to the those who are contrite and repent and strive to to do His will and those who do will be rewarded. Until the day of resurrection comes, I cannot confirm that belief. No-one can prove what is to come but God has given us the assurance in that He has raised Jesus from the dead. I know you will say "prove it" and that you do not accept the evidence of the Bible and there is not much record in secular history to support that Jesus was the person as described in the Bible.

    Seeing as I accept the Bible's explanation that holy men of God were inspired to write down God's word, the reason we do not have much recorded in secular history might be due to the fact that God did not have the need to preserve the writings of men. You do not see the miracle that the Bible is as I do, and for this reason, it is not a surprise that the writings of men have not survived as the Bible has survived. God wants us to have faith in His word and so God has not caused secular writings to be preserved, just enough to support the fact that Jesus lived.

    I do not call righteousness according to God's requirements artificial. I see Rose has mentioned the Golden Rule in another post and I have replied to say that the first occurrence of this is in Leviticus 19: 18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

    As you know Jesus said the same thing and he summed up all the law in the two great commandments which to me is the more complete Golden Rule. Since keeping the Golden Rule is righteousness in God's sight, then this confirms what you define as "true righteousness" which contradicts your opening statement about being "artificial". We should be in agreement on this if we regard anyone who keeps the complete Golden Rule as summed up in the two great commandments as righteous.

    All the best

    David

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Throughout the Gospels it is written that Jesus speaks out against the way religious leaders were interpreting many of the Old Testament laws that were given to the Jews by their god Yahweh, so why didnít he also speak out against the inequality of women that was also written in the law? For example when the Jews sought to stone the woman caught in adultery they were carrying out the law given to Moses by Yahweh; instead of rebuking those who were carrying out the law, Jesus should have condemned the law itself and rebuked his father who gave it. Jesus could have said: this woman is of equal value to a man, so why is not the man here also to be stoned? If Jesus would have set a precedent by speaking up and declaring that women are of equal value to men and deserve equal human rights, he could have changed the course of history with respect to women. Never in all of his words did Jesus ever rescind one law with respect to women, nor did he ever condemn one atrocity against women commanded by Yahweh whom he called his father. Under the Law of Moses a man could condemn a woman to a death by stoning if she could not prove her virginity upon marriage, was any such law written for menÖof course notÖdid Jesus ever mention that? No.

    For all the magnificent words spoken by Jesus about his love for humanity, he failed miserably when it came to promoting equal human rights for women. Because of his negligence in regards to womenís rights, the apostle Paul also refused to speak up for equality of women, and instead reaffirmed the secondary position of women being in subjugation to men and considered propertyÖthis in turn has led to the continued discrimination against women in the Christian church up until today. Just imagine what could have been accomplished by a few positive words on the equality of women spoken by Jesus? It wouldnít have taken two thousand years for women to gain equal rights, with no thanks given to the authors of the Bible. Not only was the status of women as property upheld by Jesus, but also the legitimacy of slavery was endorsed by him which leads to the inevitable conclusion that the god Jesus called his father did not believe in human equality.


    Rose
    This is one of the stupiest post I have ever heard. Do you know what is the implication if God is very strict with adultery? 70% of all Americans will be klilled!...from statistics 70% American men and women have committed adultery at least once in their life! God is merciful in the sense that He did not carry out the commandment of do not commit adultery strictly or hardly anyone will be alive today but he continue to tolerate it hoping one day we will learn from our folly. Adultery will only results in the collapse of family value and the sanctity of marriage and this will lead to distrust among couples and problem kids. If everybody commits adultery then what is the point of marriage? Where then is the love for God and the love of thy neighbor as thyself?

    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...8080022AACuyjv

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adultery

    Is equal human rights for males and females always good? I don't think so. To me it doesn't matter if there is male or female dominance or inequlaity as long as all must work towards common good for society. There are more important things at hand rather than to fight for male and female inequality, why not fight against smoking, drug dependence, alcoholism, abortion which have killed millions around the world? why not fight for stricter gun control which have caused hundreds of innocent lives? why not fight relentlessly against evil, wickedness and greed that have caused countless suffering to all people? why not fight against poverty and wars and viloence? why not fight against irresponsible drivers that caused accident death and injury to millions of people yearly? Why not spent fortunes eradicating diseases, cancers, AIDS around the world? Why not strive to allow all to enter the kingdom of heaven?

    God Bless.
    Last edited by CWH; 08-17-2012 at 07:48 PM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Rose
    Maybe there is but I need to be shown what other early writings contain say the Golden Rule. The earliest I can find this in the scriptures is the following verse.

    Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

    I will ask you Rose what other writings containing the Golden Rule predates the Book of Leviticus?

    All the best

    David
    The writings of Confucius don't necessarily predate the book of Leviticus, but he lived in an entirely different culture than the Hebrews with no contact with them, and his writings contain the Golden Rule. Besides that the verse in Leviticus was only addressed to the Hebrews themselves, and as you might have noticed the Hebrews never treated their foreign neighbors as themselves.

    Lev.19:17-18 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.


    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    The writings of Confucius don't necessarily predate the book of Leviticus, but he lived in an entirely different culture than the Hebrews with no contact with them, and his writings contain the Golden Rule. Besides that the verse in Leviticus was only addressed to the Hebrews themselves, and as you might have noticed the Hebrews never treated their foreign neighbors as themselves.

    Lev.19:17-18 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.


    Take care,
    Rose
    You must know the meaning of love thy neighbor as thyself which is not equate to loving everybody. This is stated very clearly ibn my thread:

    Love Thy Neighbor as Yourself
    Just to find out fromthe floor their insight into thy neighbor. Who are our neighbors? What is your opinion? Is thy neighbor......
    1. Everybody? If so, why is everybody our neighbor?...incuding your enemies?....
    2. Those around us? Sounds more like it but how about those not around us? Are they also our neighbor?..... Are we supposed to love those around us only?
    3. Those who interact with us directly or indirectly? Well ok, how about those who did not interact with us at all? Do we still love those who don't interact with us at all?
    4. Those who need our help? How about those who do not need our help, are they our neighbor also?

    What is the Bible's definition of thy neighbor?

    Luke 10:25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. 'Teacher,' he asked, 'what must I do to inherit eternal life?'
    26 'What is written in the Law?' he replied. 'How do you read it?'

    27 He answered, 'ĎLove the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mindí[c]; and, ĎLove your neighbor as yourself.í[d]'

    28 'You have answered correctly,' Jesus replied. 'Do this and you will live.'

    29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, 'And who is my neighbor?'
    30 In reply Jesus said: 'A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[e] and gave them to the innkeeper. ĎLook after him,í he said, Ďand when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.í

    36 'Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?'

    37 The expert in the law replied, 'The one who had mercy on him.'
    Jesus told him, 'Go and do likewise.'

    I think the answer is very clear, thy neighbor is the one who show us mercy or the one whom we show mercy to.

    What is your opinion?


    http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...or-as-Yourself

    Even if you show mercy to your enemy or your enemy shows mercy to you, your enemy is your neighbor. Love thy neighbor means showing mercy to everyone.

    May God Bless our neighbor.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Good morning Rose

    I see you have picked up on the one point and not answered any of the questions. If you believe that God exists, but not the God (as you understand) of the Bible, would you not want to be righteous in the sight of the god you can believe in?

    If woman had been created first and man second, then maybe we would be having the same discussion dealing with men's rights.
    The fact is, there is an order and a hierarchy as in any business. Business is not a perfect example; as we know that there is a lot of discrimination in business, but this is of men's making and has nothing to do with God. However, using this imperfect example the same can go for men as women. We might have the same capability to be the managing director of a company, but there can only be one managing director and the people at the bottom (men as well as women) can feel that they would like to have their turn at the top, but that cannot happen. Hence those who come to believe in God are taught to be content with their lot.
    Hello David,

    Equal rights has nothing to do with who was created first, and besides that the Bible is totally confused about the creation story anyway. First off, in Genesis 1, God creates male and female equally in his image, then the story get totally changed in Genesis 2, with God creating man from the dust and having Adam try to find a mate from all the animals who were already created, then deciding to create woman from the rib of the man. What a mixed up mess...

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I do not find the discrimination you claim about God. God judges people but is not discriminating between gender and God is not partial. There is an order and we have to accept the fact that God made male first. The ritual of purification for a woman giving birth to a male and a female and the difference in the ritual for a male is not grounds for saying God is discriminating about the persons born, whether they are male of female. They have their complimentary roles to play in the service of God, which you seem to be opposed to. There are many women in the church that accept their different roles, and do not see God as discriminating against them or denying them their rights. Men and women have equal rights and there is much evidence of this.
    The Bible is full of discrimination against women! Women were considered property according to the law and they most certainly did not have equal human rights. The only reason you say God made the male first is because you choose to believe the order in Genesis 2 instead of Genesis 1...why is that? Probably because you are trying to justify your biblegod's discrimination against women. Just because women accept the roles that men have given them does not mean they are just or equal...it's time for women in the church to start speaking up for their equal rights and stop being pushed around by men who are following a male biased tribal war god.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    In the law given to Moses, women are of equal value as men. I do not see that women are treated as inferior or have a lower value. Here are two examples;

    Even amongst God's chosen people, men were sold as slaves, so men are not elevated above women.
    (Deut 15:12) And if thy brother, an Hebrew man, or an Hebrew woman, be sold unto thee,

    Women could take the Nazarite vow, the same as men.
    (Numbers 6:2) When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the LORD:

    The text goes on talking in the male sense, but it is evident that both female and male are included. Maybe you object to women not having beards for the text goes on to say; All the days of the vow of his separation there shall no razor come upon his head; this includes a man's beard. For a woman her hair is " her crowning glory". That is why it is expected that a woman who comes into the presence of God during a formal service covers her head.
    Women (in general) are the fairer sex they are seen as beautiful and men are not. Is God discriminating against men in respect to beauty?
    What kind of equality is that? Men were sold as slaves just like women. As far a monetary value goes females were worth half the value of a man.

    Lev.27:1-7 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When a man shall make a singular vow, the persons shall be for the LORD by thy estimation. And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary. And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels. And if it be from five years old even unto twenty years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels. And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. And if it be from sixty years old and above; if it be a male, then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels.

    Women are beautiful and men are hansom, what does that have to do with equality?

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    The Bible reveals the good and the bad about the people chosen because they were descendants of Abraham, and God shows their warts and all. How the men treated women, does show bias in favor of men, but that is not what I see is according to God's will, and that is why I shall keep saying; "blame men and not God". The world is biased against women and in some quarters (like the quarter you are in) that is changing, and it is by your efforts and those who support you that women's rights are being restored.

    The Bible shows us the way the world is and teaches the faithful to avoid it. God does not approve of worldly ways and so God does not approve of discrimination and denial of women's rights. I am not denying that the Bible shows some abuse of women's rights, but attributing the cause to God is not correct.


    All the best,

    David
    The biblegod is the one who gave the laws that discriminate against women, but of course I believe that the biblegod was made up by men anyway, so you are right in saying that it is mans fault for denying women equal rights.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

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