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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    Squeeze a little more juice from this orange -- The promised son of Abraham carried the wood up the mountain in Gen22:6, and he was a type or pre-figure of Christ the promised son, so I think the Holy Ghostwriter is throwing us a curve with this one.. designed to encourage our debate and study.

    I still am persuaded that Jesus carried the 'figurative cross' instead of the wooden one,
    and I know all four of the gospels are true down to the tittle, so maybe there was an interval when splinters were possible??
    I think the torturing is an ongoing process until the end of time.
    Christ tortured all the time, like the olive must be pressed to obtain the oil, the essence of the (sevenfold) light.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by weeder View Post

    Thank God that he didnt abandon the Human race to its fallen, death infested state.
    He came up with a plan to restore Mankind to its former glory in paradise....death, pain, disease removed.
    His plan was to incarnate himself as a man and find himself in the realm of death. Being sinless, death had no hold on him..and he overcame it. God so LOVED the world that he gave his Son to save it.
    God knew the kind of death that awaited him and he suffered it to save our sorry ass.


    All I am saying is that mankind played its part in his death. It was all very Roman. If it was up to the Jews they would have stoned him to death, and if the taliban was the ruling power at that time they would of probably beheaded him. The devil is in the details.

    So yes, it was Gods plan that the Son be born a legitamate Human being and die a human death in order to break the curse that plagues humankind by overcoming its death.
    God simply foresaw that his hands and his feet would be pierced etc, something foreign to Judaism,but true of rome.
    Hi Weeder,

    Using your logic in thanking God for not abandoning the human race in its fallen and death infested state, we must also thank God for creating humans with the tendency to sin and the opportunity to act upon those tendencies (like placing a irresistible temptation in front of them in the Garden). Ultimately a creator is responsible for its creation, but the biblegod wants to dump the responsibility and blame onto his creation. Was the biblegod not able to create humans in his own image like Jesus? It appears not.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Last edited by Rose; 08-10-2012 at 05:34 PM.
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  3. #23
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    Deuteronomy 8:8,
    a land of wheat and barley, vines and figs and pomegranates, a land of oil producing olives and honey
    You see "oil producing olives" is the sixth fruit, belonging to the sixth day, the day on which everything happened, the institution of the Lords's supper,
    the praying in Getsemane ( = oil press), the betrayal, the condemnation (rejection), Peter's denial, the torturing, the crucifixion, the sepulture.
    Last edited by sylvius; 08-10-2012 at 01:11 PM.

  4. #24
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    My take on this is that God did indeed know what man was capable of doing. It goes to show that God's punishment can be swift and painless compared to man's punishment. There are passages in the scripture that describe events that took place such as the mocking and scourging of Jesus, and it is remarkable that the events which took place had been recorded hundreds of years before they happened, but for those that deny all prophecy, I do not expect you to agree with this.

    Had the Jews killed Jesus by stoning, Rose could argue that this method of killing was not swift and not painless, so we have a debate as to what was worse, stoning or crucifixion? Either way, it was not without its pain, but I would say that Jesus would have died quicker by stoning than by crucifixion. If Jesus was to be killed by man and by not by the Jews (directly), then Jesus was to die by the hands of merciless men. This gives us the opportunity to consider the mercy of God compared to the mercy of men; and I know whose mercy I would prefer.

    It was not without reason that Moses was instructed to fasten a serpent to a pole at the time the people that were in the wilderness, so that those who were bitten by a serpent could go and look on the serpent and be healed (saved from certain death). This was a 'type' pointing forward to the time when the Son of God would be held up on a tree. Jesus was lifted up on a pole (tree) so that those who believe in him can be saved and those who wish not to believe, will not be saved.

    I have to say, that the torture to which Rose refers to, was inevitable and God knew the type of death his Son would have to endure at the hands of men and Jesus would have known what was going to happen to him and hence the reason he agonized in the garden praying to his Heavenly Father that that particular cup might pass from him, but knowing he had to die (which was his Father's will), Jesus knew he would have to die by hands of the Romans. We know, the Romans were without mercy and were great exponents of the art of slow death.

    Crucifixion was a slow death. Most of those crucified died from asphyxiation, because (eventually) the victim was unable (due to lack of strength) to take the weight off their diaphragm by lifting up on their feet. Lifting up on the feet was painful because of the nail that had been driven through both feet. The death of Jesus could have taken much longer. The Roman guards were surprised that Jesus died so quickly and we know from scripture than Jesus gave up quickly the fight to survive. This was done for two reasons; the first was that Jesus shortened the time of his agony, and second, so that scriptures might be fulfilled, and so we have another prophecy fulfilled, which those who deny all prophecy will not concede.
    (John 19:31) The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
    (John 19:36) For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
    (Numbers 9:12) They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it.
    (Psalm 34:20) He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.

    Not only do we have one verse in scripture, but we have two verses that can be attributed to this fulfillment. Since Jesus is in type the passover lamb by which we can be saved, it is fitting that not one bone of Jesus's body was broken, and so it was necessary for Jesus to die quickly, or else the Roman guards would have had to break the legs of Jesus to make him die sooner, so that the Jews could satisfy the requirements of their law.
    The death and resurrection of Jesus is remarkable (and the missing body of Jesus has not explained by those who do not believe in the resurrection), but the scriptures describing events in the future which actually took place, never could have been written by man. The reason put forward by the doubters is that all of this was written after the event (in hindsight) and that is ludicrous and shows their lack of their understanding.
    The scriptures have been fulfilled to the letter and this shows how remarkable God is in the fulfillment of His plan, He is able to bring about the events with spot on timing. It is evidence that God rules in the kingdoms of men (as told by the prophet Daniel) and unbeknown to man, God is at work behind the scenes influencing what men will do; knowing what "buttons to press" in order for men to act in the way God knows they will act.

    So, while it was unfortunate that God had to let His only begotten Son die by the cruel hands of men (and their torturous ways) it was necessary at the time, as that was the way the Romans killed their victims. It is not true to say that God deliberately wanted His Son to be tortured as there was no other way in those days. It was inevitable that Jesus was going to suffer a great deal of pain to be killed by men. Jesus also knew what he was to suffer and he was prepared to go through with it so that you and I can have the same hope as he did; (Hebrews 12:2)2 who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.. As this verse indicates, we should not forget the humiliating shame that was associated with crucifixion by being hung up naked on the tree.

    The Bible is true, God's word is consistent and harmonious and the events of Jesus's death and resurrection prove this.

    David
    Last edited by David M; 08-11-2012 at 12:11 AM.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Well, we shouldn't be too hard on Cheow for not noticing the verse in John, since it contradicts the account given in the three synoptic Gospels which say that Simeon is the one who carried the cross:
    "And when they had mocked Him, they took the robe off Him, put His own clothes on Him, and led Him away to be crucified. Now as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name. Him they compelled to bear His cross. And when they had come to a place called Golgotha, that is to say, Place of a Skull, they gave Him sour wine mingled with gall to drink. But when He had tasted it, He would not drink" (Matthew 27:31).
    "And when they had mocked Him, they took the purple off Him, put His own clothes on Him, and led Him out to crucify Him. Then they compelled a certain man, Simon a Cyrenian, the father of Alexander and Rufus, as he was coming out of the country and passing by, to bear His cross. And they brought Him to the place Golgotha, which is translated, Place of a Skull" (Mark 15:20).

    "Now as they led Him away, they laid hold of a certain man, Simon a Cyrenian, who was coming from the country, and on him they laid the cross that he might bear it after Jesus. And a great multitude of the people followed Him, and women who also mourned and lamented Him. (Luke 23:26).

    "Then he delivered Him to them to be crucified. So they took Jesus and led Him away. And He, bearing His own cross [CONTRADICTION], went out to a place called the Place of a Skull, which is called in Hebrew, Golgotha, where they crucified Him, and two others with Him, one on either side, and Jesus in the center" (John 19:16).

    So there we have it. Yet another contradiction in the Bible. Nothing new here.
    There is nothing contradictory if you understand Roman custom. It was customary for the Romans to compel others to carry the cross as the prisoners may have been hand bound as with Jesus. It was also staed that some prisoners carry only the beam that was for used for nailing the arms and the pther beam was carried by others as it will be too heavy for a normal person to carry the whole wooden cross which could easily weighed 300 pounds. Jesus could have carried part of the cross himself part of the way to Golgotha. Please see wiki:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion

    MaY God Bless us to carry the Cross.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Again, you have missed the point of this thread. The question wasn't whether or not Jesus could have "disappeared" from the cross as you say, but why was it necessary for him to be tortured in the manner he was. As I said in my opening post, none of the animals that were sacrificed according to Jewish law were ever tortured before their death, so why was it needful for Jesus to suffer in agony before he died, if all that was needed was the death of a sinless man?

    The Gospel of Matthew says they led Jesus away to crucify him and then compelled Simon to bear his cross, implying that Jesus could not bear his own cross. Also, anyone who has been flogged 39 times could easily be near the point of death, and you're saying he wasn't in agony or pain! I think you need to do a little research on the matter.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Jesus hands were bound and could not carry the cross all the way. Jesu could alleviate the pain and agony of otherssiffering from diseases and He could easily alleviate His own pain and agony as well. Jesus was flogged but no record of injury or pain or agony in the Gospel accounts whatsoever. He could even walk and stand in front of Pilate and answered His questions with ease. I don't quite understand why people wanted to dramatise or exaggerate the flogging and pain and agony on the cross when there is no record of such in the Gospels. Jesus was no ordinary man but the Son of God and He could easily have done miracles to HIs body. Yes, he suffered the flogging and moicking and humiliation but the pain and agony and torture of the floggings and on the cross I am doubtful unless the Gospels recorded them.

    May God Bless all who carry His Cross.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi Weeder,

    Using your logic in thanking God for not abandoning the human race in its fallen and death infested state, we must also thank God for creating humans with the tendency to sin and the opportunity to act upon those tendencies (like placing a irresistible temptation in front of them in the Garden). Ultimately a creator is responsible for its creation, but the biblegod wants to dump the responsibility and blame onto his creation. Was the biblegod not able to create humans in his own image like Jesus? It appears not.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Hi Rose
    I would thank God for having a choice, despite the mess i have made in my own life.

    Could God have made man any other way in order to fellowship with him?

    God could easily create a robot to fellowship with, but i dont see how God ( or man ) could get anything out of a relationship like that. That whole concept is ridiculous.


    What virtue is there in obeying God if we dont have an inclination to do otherwise?
    Without a choice, our love for another Human being would mean what? Falls flat and becomes meaningless if we are only doing what we were programmed to do.

    Having free will, and excersing that against our tendencies to sin and selfishness for the benefit of another is a beautiful thing.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by weeder View Post
    Hi Rose
    I would thank God for having a choice, despite the mess i have made in my own life.

    Could God have made man any other way in order to fellowship with him?

    God could easily create a robot to fellowship with, but i dont see how God ( or man ) could get anything out of a relationship like that. That whole concept is ridiculous.


    What virtue is there in obeying God if we dont have an inclination to do otherwise?

    Without a choice, our love for another Human being would mean what? Falls flat and becomes meaningless if we are only doing what we were programmed to do.

    Having free will, and excersing that against our tendencies to sin and selfishness for the benefit of another is a beautiful thing.
    Hi Weeder,

    Jesus became man and was able to have fellowship with God, free choice and be tempted in all ways that humans are. Why couldn't God have created humans in the same manner as Jesus?

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  9. #29
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    Well Jesus was God to begin with, where man was not.

    Thats not to say Adam didnt have the same access to the tree of life (GOD) as Jesus did.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by weeder View Post
    Well Jesus was God to begin with, where man was not.

    Thats not to say Adam didnt have the same access to the tree of life (GOD) as Jesus did.
    I thought Jesus was a man too.

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