Q&A: Gloria Steinem on ending rape in war

[David M]

Good morning David,

There are many logical, factual, and moral problems with your justification of the moral abominations attributed to God in the Bible.

1) it was a prescriptive measure to eradicate those reprobates from the land so that the Israelites would not be snared.

That doesn't work because the incorporation of 32,000 Midianite women most certainly would have corrupted the Israelites with their pagan ways, just like Solomon's many wives. If you try to argue against this point, then you have no justification for the killing of the baby boys.

2) God permitted those not tainted (the virgins) to be spared

Your statement blows my mind. You speak of God as if he was just a bystander who "permitted" his personal spokesman to command something contrary to his will. Your argument fails because God gave his tacit approval of everything that Moses commanded, as is confirmed by the fact that he himself gave the command to distribute the virgins to the soldiers. If anything happened contrary to God's will, he could have corrected it then and there when he as talking to Moses. He said nothing against what Moses commanded so he was implicitly approving the command to kill everyone but the virgins.

Moses did not make up his own commands. God gave the people commands through Moses. The command was that ALL the Midianites should be killed and none spared. Had that instruction be followed, we would not being having a discussion about what happened next. ALL the problems that followed are as a consequence of man's disobedience. God had to deal with consequence of man's disobedience just as man also had to live with the consequences of his disobedience. We can argue the rights and wrongs of dealing with the consequences, but it is man who is to blame first and foremost.

And the idea that the female virgins were the only ones not "tainted" is obviously fallacious because the if they were not tainted then neither were the virgin boys.

I was using the expression "tainted" as this was the expression used in another post on this subject. A female virgin has a physical condition to prove virginity whereas a male virgin does not.

3) it is not without reasonable speculation that the virgins would have come to know the reason why they had not been killed

Yes, the virgins knew perfectly why they were not killed and it certainly is "not without reasonable speculation" that they were utterly horrified by the knowledge that they were spared so that they could be sex-slaves to the very soldiers that had just slaughtered every person they ever loved.

You continue to you use the expression "sex slaves" which I disagree with and have already given you reasons why I disagree in posts dealing with this subject. I shall continue to make my statements in the same way as you make your statements; I am past arguing on the statements you make.

David, please consider what you are actually doing when you attempt to justify the moral abominations of the Bible. You will never convince any moral person of anything other than the fact that the Bible tends to corrupt both the mind and the morals of those who believe it. Can you not see the great irony here? By justifying the Bible, you only prove that it destroys good morals and rationality.

I am considering these things and I am doing so in a rational way and taking into account ALL that the Bible (God) has told us concerning Himself and what he requires of men and women. I see it is humans who are at fault in the first instance and God is dealing with the disobedience of men and women. Blame disobedient men and women before blaming God for dealing with the problems their disobedience brings.

4) how do we not know,they were not grateful for their lives being spared?
It's easy to know how they would have felt. Just ask any woman in a war zone who was captured and raped by the soldiers who killed every person she ever loved. The fact that you can't see this stuns me. What has your religion done to your humanity? From my perspective, these conversations confirm absolutely that I was correct in my rejection of Biblical Christianity.

I agree that the women would also have felt the way you say, but I was not answering or asking that question. You are changing the subject of the statement I made. Unless the remainder of their lives was lived in utter misery (and we have to speak generally as there is always the exception) then being alive is better than being dead. You are not able to go back and ask these women so as you would say; "the point in moot"

1) Not all the virgins were given to the soldiers to be married, so first of all, you must accurately portray what happened.

Half of the women were given to the soldiers. That is sufficient to establish all the points Rose and I have been making. There was no need to specify this point. Adding unnecessary words makes for bloated posts.

Then please use the word "some" instead of conveying the idea of "all" and you do not have to bloat the post.

2) if they had refused to have sex with their arranged husband, then that would have given the soldier no delight and so he would have divorced her

Yes, that's what the "Holy Law" commands. After a man has used and abused a woman and stolen her virginity he was free to cast her out like a soiled rag if she didn't "please" him. And you are good with that? Again, I am continually stunned by how the Bible corrupts good morals.

"Used and abused" and "cast off like a soiled rag" are your expressions which has no foundation in the Bible. I am not good with your expressions and I am good that virgins were given a period to morn and that they were treated as wives.

3) These 32, 000 virgins were treated with respect, to say differently is to ignore what is written.

There is not one word that indicates the captives were "treated with respect." You are making things up. If they were "treated with respect" they would have been freed. If they were treated with respect they would not have been raped and then tossed out if they failed to "delight" the rapist who murdered everyone they ever loved. Your comments reveal a total lack of human compassion. But on the upside, at least you are obeying God's command to "show no mercy."

Freeing 32,000 virgins would not have done them any favors. You have to ask what would happen to them to understand the absurdity of the suggestion. Once again you use expressions that are unfounded. Please quote scripture that supports your turn of phrase. It is God who showed mercy to the virgins, I am commenting on what I read and understand.

Genocide is absolutely immoral. But Christians can't admit this simple fact because God commanded it in the Bible. This came up in the debate between Hektor Avalos and Keith Darrel called "Is the Bible a Moral Guide for Today." The Christian asserted that without God there could be no absolute morality. The great irony is that the ATHEIST was able to declare that genocide is absolutely immoral whereas the CHRISTIAN refused because God commanded it. This proves yet again the vanity and logical incoherence of the Christian beliefs. The Bible corrupts good morals. It does not establish them.

Genocide carried out by man not under instruction be God is immoral. Many atrocities have been carried out by man in the name of religion supposedly carrying out God's will, and in these cases it is wrong. It is on the basis that God saves those who worth saving and therefore those who God does not save are not worth saving; hence the expression reprobates. We can learn from these records not to do the same as those who were not saved.

"Not worth saving." So that's how you see a whole nation of people, including innocent babies? Such a view is morally corrupt.

You accuse me of being morally corrupt for understanding the basis on which God called for genocide of a corrupt nation. Your failure to recognize a corrupt nation equally "astounds me".

And from a Biblical perspective, the Canaanites were no different than the Israelites. Indeed, the Israelites were worse because they had the Law of God and yet behaved worse than the Canaanites.

Individually, if an Israelite did as the Canaanite they were worse as they should have known better. God made this pronouncement on anyone in the land and it is evident from this example that turning a blind eye was equally bad;
(Leviticus 20:2)
2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.
3 And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name.
4 And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not:
5 Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people.

Yes, the Canaanites were sooooooo verrrrry bad because they were killing some of their children, so God sent in the Israelites to do it for them!

God also sent his Angel before them, the Israelites did not have to do much other than to believe and have faith and they could not even do that. Yet God had given a law to the His people and that did make them better than the nations around them, but when they failed to observe the law individually or as a nation, they were punished by God. It is only because of the fulfillment of God's promises that the nation of Israel has survived or else from the times when they were corrupted, God could easily have wiped them out as He did with other nations.

Your attempt to demonize the Canaanites can never justify the genocide. Sorry.

I do not demonize the Canaanites, I am going on what the Bible says about them. I am thankful to God that He saves those who are pleasing to Him and that is the camp I prefer to be in. We are all under the sentence of death because we have all sinned and sooner or later we shall all die. I thank God that death does not have to be the end, and that God has given us a way out. I accept that God is wiser than man and is working out His purpose; it is a pity that so many refuse to accept God's terms, but then if that was the case, things would be very different to as things are the way God predicted which is another reason for believing God's word is true. You can turn a blind eye to the abominations of men and say that God is immoral for killing people who have rejected Him, but that is what you are doing when you do not concede that God is acting in accordance with the rules He has laid down for man, knowing it is in man's best interest that men follow God's rules.

I think it would be great to have a balanced discussion of the biblegod, but that's impossible as long as you refuse to admit that the Bible says many things about him that are both irrational and immoral.

It is impossible so long as you cannot rationalize the actions of God and continue to consider them immoral (by man's standard). You are avoiding a lot of scripture that shows God is just in what He does.

You can surf around the old versions of my website and you will see nothing but exuberant praise of God beyond all limits:

biblewheel.com 2.0 (2009 - 2011)
biblewheel.com 1.0 (2001 - 2009)

I was asking Rose for direction to some posts in which she has said good things about God. Since I have joined this forum from the beginning of this year, I have not read one positive comment from Rose (or from you now that I think about it). We all know that your understanding of God has changed over recent years and what you wrote years ago is not what you believe now. Maybe for the record, you should state now what you believe is "good" about the God of the Bible.

Well, we are off to the mountains for the day.

Let's hope you get closer to God the higher you climb; have a good trip.

David

[David M]

Hey there David,

First, I find it fascinating that you frequently refuse to answer my points and choose instead to simply reject them under the pretense that they are "not backed up by scripture" and based on "humanist thinking." Such empty assertions mean nothing and are nothing but an admission that you can't refute what I wrote.

Second, your point about "reprobates" doesn't work unless you are asserting that babies can be reprobate and that every man, woman, and child of the Midianites were reprobate except the 32,000 sexy virgins. That ain't gonna fly. I already explained why, but you ignored my answer.

Have a nice day!

Richard

Good morning Richard
I am not refusing to answer your points. I have just before this reply responded to your earlier response to my post. I have given scriptures to back up what I say or from where I draw my conclusions such as that given by citing Romans chapters one and two. The lessons should be obvious to anyone reading those chapters.
I am not making any pretense. You are making assertions against God which are not backed up by what God has said about Himself. If you are speculating (as I sometimes speculate) then that is OK, just say you are speculating, otherwise, as I have said, I will reason with you based on what is written in the Bible. If you say that God is immoral, then show me in the Bible that God is immoral. I can show you many instances where God is acting according to as He has spoken and has warned people in advance of the consequence of their actions. To be punished by God for disobedience to Him is not immoral. Turning a blind eye to God is no excuse for not knowing. To preempt one response this will generate from you, I will add the following quotation;
(Deut 5)
9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
10 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

All the best,

David

[Rose]

Moses did not make up his own commands. God gave the people commands through Moses. The command was that ALL the Midianites should be killed and none spared. Had that instruction be followed, we would not being having a discussion about what happened next. ALL the problems that followed are as a consequence of man's disobedience. God had to deal with consequence of man's disobedience just as man also had to live with the consequences of his disobedience. We can argue the rights and wrongs of dealing with the consequences, but it is man who is to blame first and foremost.

Hi David,

In Numbers 31 the Lord tells Moses to avenge the children of Israel by going to war with the Midianites which they did killing all the males. God never said in this particular incident to kill everyone, which was obvious since Moses allowed the soldiers to keep the virgins just like it says they can in Deuteronomy 21.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.

If as you say all the problem arose from man's disobedience in not killing all the Midianites, then why was it when the biblegod flooded the world killing every living thing except what was on the ark along with righteous Noah and his family that wickedness continued through Noah? Killing is not the answer.

I was asking Rose for direction to some posts in which she has said good things about God. Since I have joined this forum from the beginning of this year, I have not read one positive comment from Rose (or from you now that I think about it). We all know that your understanding of God has changed over recent years and what you wrote years ago is not what you believe now. Maybe for the record, you should state now what you believe is "good" about the God of the Bible.


Let's hope you get closer to God the higher you climb; have a good trip.

David

Up until 2010 and somewhat beyond all my posts were of a positive nature, now it's time to start balancing things out and look at the dark side of the Bible. Once a person finds out the God they once believed in is a mass murderer and total misogynist it kinda changes their perspective on things, which is exactly what happened to me. All the good found in the Bible is for naught as far as I'm concerned, because you can't call a mass murderer good no matter how many good things they have done! The way I look at the Bible now is that it is a good historical record of the primitive male mindset.

Take care,
Rose

[David M]

Hello Rose

Hi David,

In Numbers 31 the Lord tells Moses to avenge the children of Israel by going to war with the Midianites which they did killing all the males. God never said in this particular incident to kill everyone, which was obvious since Moses allowed the soldiers to keep the virgins just like it says they can in Deuteronomy 21.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.

Thanks for pointing out the slight error, with discussing the Canaanites, I was forgetting we are still in the time of Moses before the people went into the land to occupy it. We are now dealing with the Midianites and whatever the initial instruction was, it was not obeyed. In this case Moses was wroth for what had been carried out; (Num 31:14 ) And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. From the question asked by Moses, it appears that all the women and children whould have been killed. (Verse 15) And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? 16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

What resulted was a compromise and the virgins were saved and the virgins were kept. Compared to the idolatrous nations we should note the lengths the Israelites went to purify themselves after the battle. (verse 19) And do ye abide without the camp seven days: whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify both yourselves and your captives on the third day, and on the seventh day.20 And purify all your raiment, and all that is made of skins, and all work of goats' hair, and all things made of wood. 21 And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses; These laws were given to the people for a reason, and keeping pure and spotless is the lesson that applies to all God's people in every generation. Unfortunately, the Israelites did not do all according to God's law and they were not the good examples they should have been and God did not leave them unpunished for the disobedience.

If as you say all the problem arose from man's disobedience in not killing all the Midianites, then why was it when the biblegod flooded the world killing every living thing except what was on the ark along with righteous Noah and his family that wickedness continued through Noah? Killing is not the answer.

We have already gone over this point elsewhere. Killing is not the total answer and God was not eradicating man's potential to sin. God destroyed the people in the flood only when down to the last man worth saving. Noah was not perfect, but God saved him, because Noah was righteous in God's eyes and that is the lesson we have to learn. God saves the righteous, but those who are not righteous and who hate God, God gives up on them and they are reprobates in His sight and He does not save them. So whether they die sooner or later makes no difference, the fact that they died sooner in the flood and when God ordered the land to be cleared of the reprobate nations, was to reduce the problem. Israel were snared sooner because they did not clear the land of all the people;they could still have been influenced by those idolatrous nations that were outside the land and it would have taken longer. The Israelites were not good at keeping God's law and God punished them. It is good if everyone could keep God's laws, but since God's laws are rejected, it is not surprising we have all the problems we do and this is of man's making; not God's.

Up until 2010 and somewhat beyond all my posts were of a positive nature, now it's time to start balancing things out and look at the dark side of the Bible. Once a person finds out the God they once believed in is a mass murderer and total misogynist it kinda changes their perspective on things, which is exactly what happened to me. All the good found in the Bible is for naught as far as I'm concerned, because you can't call a mass murderer good no matter how many good things they have done! The way I look at the Bible now is that it is a good historical record of the primitive male mindset.

Take care,
Rose

The Bible is not by any means the reflection of a primitive mindset. To say this is to ignore a lot of the Bible. The hygiene laws given to Moses were way ahead of their time.
Your perspective has changed but has swung too far in the opposite direction. You came to realize there is more to know about God that is not told by the main Christian churches. That is why, the God of the Bible and the real Jesus is not known by the majority of Christendom. I do not ignore the fact that God killed people in mass and I have to understand why and learn from it. It was not for naught that it is written; (Heb 10:31) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Those who do not hate God and who seek after righteousness, have nothing to fear. There are abundant examples in the Bible where God saves the righteous. Do you want to be righteous? It should be no surprise when God does not save the unrighteous. It is very simple test to apply to all the characters mentioned in the Bible and we can learn the lessons (good and bad) concerning those who were righteous and those who were not.

Why should God save any people who hate Him?
Exodus
5 for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
It is abundantly evident that God shows mercy to those that love Him and that love extends to doing as God has commanded.

We have a set of choices:
Love God or hate God.
Obey God or disobey God
Choose eternal life or choose eternal death
Serve God or serve mammon.

It is very clear that we have to choose one or the other, we cannot have both. I know what my choice is. The same principles apply to us today as in the message God gave to the Hebrews; the land is unimportant compared to the principles involved here. In one sense, for us today the land represents the kingdom of God and unless we heed God's words we cannot expect to dwell in the kingdom.
Deuteronomy 30
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

All the best,

David

[CWH]

[QUOTE]

Hi David,

In Numbers 31 the Lord tells Moses to avenge the children of Israel by going to war with the Midianites which they did killing all the males. God never said in this particular incident to kill everyone, which was obvious since Moses allowed the soldiers to keep the virgins just like it says they can in Deuteronomy 21.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.

Does this sounds like rape?...mourned for one month for the woman.... customary rites to become the Jewish tribe in order to marry a Jewish husband and becomes his wife. The husband can leave her as he wish so that she will not become a widow of dead soldier and can remarry again as a free woman. The husband can not sell her or make money out of her. Ever wonder why there were so many virgin women?..... because most of the Midianite men were homosexuals who were more interested in males just like their counterparts in Sodom and Gomorrah.

If as you say all the problem arose from man's disobedience in not killing all the Midianites, then why was it when the biblegod flooded the world killing every living thing except what was on the ark along with righteous Noah and his family that wickedness continued through Noah? Killing is not the answer.

In Genesis 8, God already knew that the killing of all wickedness with the great flood except righteous Noah and his family will not solve the problem as the evilness will still grew eventually but the rate of evilness will be slower and under control.

21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

Up until 2010 and somewhat beyond all my posts were of a positive nature, now it's time to start balancing things out and look at the dark side of the Bible. Once a person finds out the God they once believed in is a mass murderer and total misogynist it kinda changes their perspective on things, which is exactly what happened to me. All the good found in the Bible is for naught as far as I'm concerned, because you can't call a mass murderer good no matter how many good things they have done! The way I look at the Bible now is that it is a good historical record of the primitive male mindset.

Neither can you call a good man good if he did nothing to rid the world of evil and injustice or is indifference to the evil and injustice that is growing in the world making no effort to make this world a better place to live in.

May God Bless the righteous.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Good morning David,

It looks like we pretty much disagree about everything. I wish there were some foundation of agreement for us to build upon. But to get that, you need to respond to the points that I'm really trying to make rather than offering solutions which consist of little more than "the Bible says it and I believe it."

So I'll just tell you what I think, but I wish you would choose to engage my arguments more and try to understand why reasonable people find the mere assertion that "the Bible is God's Word" and therefore "true" unsatisfactory and unconvincing.

Good morning David,

There are many logical, factual, and moral problems with your justification of the moral abominations attributed to God in the Bible.

1) it was a prescriptive measure to eradicate those reprobates from the land so that the Israelites would not be snared.

That doesn't work because the incorporation of 32,000 Midianite women most certainly would have corrupted the Israelites with their pagan ways, just like Solomon's many wives. If you try to argue against this point, then you have no justification for the killing of the baby boys.

2) God permitted those not tainted (the virgins) to be spared

Your statement blows my mind. You speak of God as if he was just a bystander who "permitted" his personal spokesman to command something contrary to his will. Your argument fails because God gave his tacit approval of everything that Moses commanded, as is confirmed by the fact that he himself gave the command to distribute the virgins to the soldiers. If anything happened contrary to God's will, he could have corrected it then and there when he as talking to Moses. He said nothing against what Moses commanded so he was implicitly approving the command to kill everyone but the virgins.

Moses did not make up his own commands. God gave the people commands through Moses. The command was that ALL the Midianites should be killed and none spared. Had that instruction be followed, we would not being having a discussion about what happened next. ALL the problems that followed are as a consequence of man's disobedience. God had to deal with consequence of man's disobedience just as man also had to live with the consequences of his disobedience. We can argue the rights and wrongs of dealing with the consequences, but it is man who is to blame first and foremost.

Your solution does not work for at least four reasons:

1) Contrary to your assertion, God did NOT give any explicit order that "ALL the Midianites should be killed."

2) If it was God's intent to have them all killed, then he would not have explicitly allows the 32,000 virgins to be saved.

3) The events that followed were under the direct command of God. He did not have to "deal with man's disobedience." If he wanted everyone killed, he could have simply commanded it.

4) Contrary to your assertion, it was GOD HIMSELF who started all the bloodshed when he commanded Moses to slaughter the Midianite men, women, and babies. This moral abomination was commanded by God.

And it is particularly telling that you did not even attempt to answer my first point. If the Midianites were reprobates, then why would you want to incorporate 32,000 virgin reprobates into Israel?

And the idea that the female virgins were the only ones not "tainted" is obviously fallacious because the if they were not tainted then neither were the virgin boys.

I was using the expression "tainted" as this was the expression used in another post on this subject. A female virgin has a physical condition to prove virginity whereas a male virgin does not.

And what does the lack of virginity have to do with being worthy of death? Absolutely nothing. That was my point. You did not answer it. And it is false to assert that you could know if a woman was a virgin by looking at her.

3) it is not without reasonable speculation that the virgins would have come to know the reason why they had not been killed

Yes, the virgins knew perfectly why they were not killed and it certainly is "not without reasonable speculation" that they were utterly horrified by the knowledge that they were spared so that they could be sex-slaves to the very soldiers that had just slaughtered every person they ever loved.

You continue to you use the expression "sex slaves" which I disagree with and have already given you reasons why I disagree in posts dealing with this subject. I shall continue to make my statements in the same way as you make your statements; I am past arguing on the statements you make.

You are not "arguing with the statements I make" - and that's the problem! You merely make you assertions and when I show why they don't work, you ignore the reasons I gave and just repeat your fallacious assertions. Case in point: You focused only on the term "sex slave" and totally ignored my refutation of your assertion that it was "not without reasonable speculation that the virgins would have come to know the reason why they had not been killed." They knew perfectly well why they were not killed. They were distributed to the Israelites to serve in whatever capacity the Israelites desired, and the text makes it clear that one of the primary desires was to take them for "wives" which in this context it is "not without reasonable speculation" to conclude it was for sex. This is obvious because the only criteria was SEXUAL.

David, please consider what you are actually doing when you attempt to justify the moral abominations of the Bible. You will never convince any moral person of anything other than the fact that the Bible tends to corrupt both the mind and the morals of those who believe it. Can you not see the great irony here? By justifying the Bible, you only prove that it destroys good morals and rationality.

I am considering these things and I am doing so in a rational way and taking into account ALL that the Bible (God) has told us concerning Himself and what he requires of men and women. I see it is humans who are at fault in the first instance and God is dealing with the disobedience of men and women. Blame disobedient men and women before blaming God for dealing with the problems their disobedience brings.

Your attempt to justify God by blaming humans doesn't work because no matter how wicked people were, it would not justify God commanding his people to be mass murderers. And you have not written a word to justify the saving of the virgins.

You assume without reason that the Bible is an accurate record of what "God" has said. That's why the Bible corrupts the minds and morals of those who choose to believe it. If you begin with the assumption that the Quran is the Word of God, then anything it says about Allah must be true no matter how many reasons we have to reject it.

4) how do we not know,they were not grateful for their lives being spared?
It's easy to know how they would have felt. Just ask any woman in a war zone who was captured and raped by the soldiers who killed every person she ever loved. The fact that you can't see this stuns me. What has your religion done to your humanity? From my perspective, these conversations confirm absolutely that I was correct in my rejection of Biblical Christianity.

I agree that the women would also have felt the way you say, but I was not answering or asking that question. You are changing the subject of the statement I made. Unless the remainder of their lives was lived in utter misery (and we have to speak generally as there is always the exception) then being alive is better than being dead. You are not able to go back and ask these women so as you would say; "the point in moot"

I understand your point. Survivors of Hitler's death camps were probably glad to be alive though they might have felt like they wished they were dead when imprisoned. But it only helps people see the depth of depravity taught in the Bible if we need to compare the biblegod with Hitler.

1) Not all the virgins were given to the soldiers to be married, so first of all, you must accurately portray what happened.

Half of the women were given to the soldiers. That is sufficient to establish all the points Rose and I have been making. There was no need to specify this point. Adding unnecessary words makes for bloated posts.

Then please use the word "some" instead of conveying the idea of "all" and you do not have to bloat the post.

The word "some" would not be accurate. We know what we are talking about. There is no need to quibble over such minutia.

"Used and abused" and "cast off like a soiled rag" are your expressions which has no foundation in the Bible. I am not good with your expressions and I am good that virgins were given a period to morn and that they were treated as wives.

Yes, and my expressions accurately represent the horror of the law that allowed soldiers to capture a virgin in war, have sex with her, and then discard her if she did not please him. You cannot refute these facts.

3) These 32, 000 virgins were treated with respect, to say differently is to ignore what is written.

There is not one word that indicates the captives were "treated with respect." You are making things up. If they were "treated with respect" they would have been freed. If they were treated with respect they would not have been raped and then tossed out if they failed to "delight" the rapist who murdered everyone they ever loved. Your comments reveal a total lack of human compassion. But on the upside, at least you are obeying God's command to "show no mercy."

Freeing 32,000 virgins would not have done them any favors. You have to ask what would happen to them to understand the absurdity of the suggestion. Once again you use expressions that are unfounded. Please quote scripture that supports your turn of phrase. It is God who showed mercy to the virgins, I am commenting on what I read and understand.

After murdering every person they ever loved, it is ludicrous to speak of "doing them any favors."

There is NOTHING in the text that suggests God showed any "mercy" to the 32,000 virgins who were classed along with the sheep and oxen.

Genocide carried out by man not under instruction be God is immoral.

So genocide is NOT IMMORAL! This totally destroys the Christian argument that there are moral absolutes, and that we could not have any moral absolutes without God.

You accuse me of being morally corrupt for understanding the basis on which God called for genocide of a corrupt nation. Your failure to recognize a corrupt nation equally "astounds me".

The idea of killing babies because the parents were bad is immoral. Simple as that. If Christians can't understand this, I have no choice but to conclude that their sense of morality has been corrupted by the Bible.

Individually, if an Israelite did as the Canaanite they were worse as they should have known better. God made this pronouncement on anyone in the land and it is evident from this example that turning a blind eye was equally bad;
(Leviticus 20:2)
2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.
3 And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name.
4 And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not:
5 Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people.

So you are saying that God was unjust. He punished the Canaanites but not Israel even though they committed the same crimes.

God also sent his Angel before them, the Israelites did not have to do much other than to believe and have faith and they could not even do that. Yet God had given a law to the His people and that did make them better than the nations around them, but when they failed to observe the law individually or as a nation, they were punished by God. It is only because of the fulfillment of God's promises that the nation of Israel has survived or else from the times when they were corrupted, God could easily have wiped them out as He did with other nations.

Yes, God could just kill everyone. But he didn't do that. He showed favoritism - especially for the adulterous murderous king David who is supposed to be a "type" of Christ.

So why is God so enamored with VIOLENCE? He seems like a demented freak. He is ALMIGHTY GOD! He could do whatever he chose. Why did he choose to create a world in which to justify is constant command to murder babies? What's he really all about? Why does he delight in chopping up babies and destroying families and commanding his people to steal not only their land, but their possessions too? Can't you see how horrible the Bible really is when you read it?

I think it would be great to have a balanced discussion of the biblegod, but that's impossible as long as you refuse to admit that the Bible says many things about him that are both irrational and immoral.

It is impossible so long as you cannot rationalize the actions of God and continue to consider them immoral (by man's standard). You are avoiding a lot of scripture that shows God is just in what He does.

"Rationalize the actions of God" <---- that says it all. It would be an exercise in extremely irrational "rationalization" to justify the biblegod. I would have to call evil good and good evil.

And your idea that genocide is only immoral by "man's standard" shows yet again how the Bible corrupts good morals. Genocide is WRONG David. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

I am not aware of "ignoring" any Scriptures. The mere fact that a Scripture says "God is just" does not mean it is so. You need to read the whole Bible with open eyes and an open mind. Then you will see that the Bible is not what you think it is. I have proof, and I have proven it. You cannot refute me on this point. You are merely believing the Bible because that's what you want to do. It is simply impossible to justify the moral abominations and irrationality attributed to God in the Bible.

I was asking Rose for direction to some posts in which she has said good things about God. Since I have joined this forum from the beginning of this year, I have not read one positive comment from Rose (or from you now that I think about it). We all know that your understanding of God has changed over recent years and what you wrote years ago is not what you believe now. Maybe for the record, you should state now what you believe is "good" about the God of the Bible.

Sounds like a great idea! I'll give it some thought and start a thread.

Let's hope you get closer to God the higher you climb; have a good trip.

David

[Rose]

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.

Does this sounds like rape?...mourned for one month for the woman.... customary rites to become the Jewish tribe in order to marry a Jewish husband and becomes his wife. The husband can leave her as he wish so that she will not become a widow of dead soldier and can remarry again as a free woman. The husband can not sell her or make money out of her. Ever wonder why there were so many virgin women?..... because most of the Midianite men were homosexuals who were more interested in males just like their counterparts in Sodom and Gomorrah.

Grow a heart Cheow! Of course it sounds like rape. There is not one word in the entire passage that asks if the woman wants to be the mans wife. IF the man sees a beautiful woman that HE desires and HE wants for HIS wife, HE can have her...that my friend is rape. Women have human rights too, even though the biblegod denies them.

In Genesis 8, God already knew that the killing of all wickedness with the great flood except righteous Noah and his family will not solve the problem as the evilness will still grew eventually but the rate of evilness will be slower and under control.

21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.


Neither can you call a good man good if he did nothing to rid the world of evil and injustice or is indifference to the evil and injustice that is growing in the world making no effort to make this world a better place to live in.

May God Bless the righteous.

If God already knew killing everyone wouldn't solve the problem of evil why did he do it...just for the fun of it?


Rose

[CWH]

[QUOTE]

Grow a heart Cheow! Of course it sounds like rape. There is not one word in the entire passage that asks if the woman wants to be the mans wife. IF the man sees a beautiful woman that HE desires and HE wants for HIS wife, HE can have her...that my friend is rape. Women have human rights too, even though the biblegod denies them.

Where is the evicdence of rape? Did the girls struggled to defend themselves against rape? Did they committed suicide instead of rape? Did the Israelite men forced themselves on to them? If there were no evidence, the judge will just throw out your accusations. They were willing partners knowing that they were considered as part of God's people in which they themselves and their generations will be saved if they believed in the Hebrew God rather than their pagan gods. And if their loved ones who have been killed repented of their sins, they will also be saved. There were many forced marriages or blind marriages and child marriages in the olden days and they were not considered as rapes.

If God already knew killing everyone wouldn't solve the problem of evil why did he do it...just for the fun of it?

I have already said that the purpose is not to eradicate sin but to reduce the rate of sin so that when the critical mass of people who have ever lived on earth has been reached, the harvest to separate the good from the bad will begin during judgement day. It is easy to create robots that has no free will and they will be very obedient and will do exactly what was programmed but with robots that have free-will in which they can make decision and goes against what was programmed. it is not easy to control them. Free-will robots have a distinct advantage over totally programmed robots. They have the free-will to do good or to go against the program and do evil. Which robots do you want to be? Obviously, the free-will robots that do good and yet knowing what is good and what is evil. And what would you do if the free-will robots decided to go against your program and do evil. Obviously, try to repair the defective program (caused by an evil computer virus) and if the defective program is beyond repair, destroy them totally and make good use of their good spare parts instead of allowing them to infect and cause defects in other good robots.

If God were to be strict and eradicate all sin, no men would be alive not even Noah's and his family. Noah's and his family were so far among the best and least sinful of all and that was why they were saved so that the generations that came from them will be less sinful and less evil. But as time goes by, evil will increase and then God will return to control the evilness again. Whoever persevere and remain righteous will be saved. I believe this to be a continuing process....Earth is a farmland for righteous souls for the kingdom of heaven. It is like a prospective pearl hunter looking for fine pearls. Do you want to be that fine pearl? What's the point of looking for diseased oysters that can only produce poor quality pearls? Jesus said, "You are the salt of the world but if the salt has lost its saltiness, what good is it for except to be trampled underfoot by men".

God Bless the righteous.

[Rose]

Where is the evicdence of rape? Did the girls struggled to defend themselves against rape? Did they committed suicide instead of rape? Did the Israelite men forced themselves on to them? If there were no evidence, the judge will just throw out your accusations. They were willing partners knowing that they were considered as part of God's people in which they themselves and their generations will be saved if they believed in the Hebrew God rather than their pagan gods. And if their loved ones who have been killed repented of their sins, they will also be saved. There were many forced marriages or blind marriages and child marriages in the olden days and they were not considered as rapes.

I fear your heart is so hardened there is no hope for you.

If God were to be strict and eradicate all sin, no men would be alive not even Noah's and his family. Noah's and his family were so far among the best and least sinful of all and that was why they were saved so that the generations that came from them will be less sinful and less evil. But as time goes by, evil will increase and then God will return to control the evilness again. Whoever persevere and remain righteous will be saved. I believe this to be a continuing process....Earth is a farmland for righteous souls for the kingdom of heaven. It is like a prospective pearl hunter looking for fine pearls. Do you want to be that fine pearl? What's the point of looking for diseased oysters that can only produce poor quality pearls? Jesus said, "You are the salt of the world but if the salt has lost its saltiness, what good is it for except to be trampled underfoot by men".

God Bless the righteous.

So, I guess your biblegod is not omnipotent after all, since he is unable to create sinless beings, or eradicate sin once it has been introduced into humanity. And while we are on the subject, where did sin come from anyway? In the beginning was God, and he was good, and everything he created was good...so, how did sin come from good if God was all good?

Take care,
Rose

[CWH]

I fear your heart is so hardened there is no hope for you.

No judge in the world will ever agree with you your definition of rape! Everyone is innocent unless proven guilty.

So, I guess your biblegod is not omnipotent after all, since he is unable to create sinless beings, or eradicate sin once it has been introduced into humanity. And while we are on the subject, where did sin come from anyway? In the beginning was God, and he was good, and everything he created was good...so, how did sin come from good if God was all good?

This is the fourth time I am putting out this parable, have you ever read or meditate on this parable of the wheats and the tares?

Matthew 13:24-30
24 Another parable he put before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27 And the servants of the householder came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then has it weeds?' 28 He said to them, `An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, `Then do you want us to go and gather them?' 29 But he said, `No; lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.'"

God Blessed.