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  1. #1
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    Q&A: Gloria Steinem on ending rape in war

    An excellent interview of Gloria Steinem by Lauren Wolfe (here).

    Lauren Wolfe: What are some of the reasons rape is so prevalent in war?
    Gloria Steinem

    Gloria Steinem: First, it’s important to note that rape and war didn’t always go together. For instance, European colonists wrote astonished letters home about how “even these savages”—by which they meant the residents of this continent they were invading—didn’t rape, not even their women prisoners. But those were wars of self-defense. If you’re going to get groups of men to risk their humanity, health, and lives in wars of offense, the traditional way is not to pay them a lot, but to addict them to the “cult of masculinity.” You have to convince them they’re not “real men” unless they kill and conquer. And, at its most basic, “masculine” means not being “feminine.” On a continuum, it means controlling women, conquering women, raping women, even with objects: bottles and broom handles in “peacetime” here, and gun barrels and knives in Bosnia or Congo. There’s a reason why it’s a truism that rape is not sex, it’s violence.
    It’s also true that men may rape in groups out of social pressure to prove their “masculinity”—in peacetime, too—but gang mentality is a way of life in war. Military officers sometimes order men to rape as proof of loyalty and shared culpability. Some men express regret and say they wouldn’t have raped without group pressure. Also the group hatred war requires means humiliating enemies by raping “their” women, implanting sperm, taking over their means of reproduction, wiping out the enemy race or ethnicity. Cultures that put all “honor” in the purity of “their” women—and keep women weak—are actually setting them up as targets.
    Even in peacetime, the “cult of masculinity” is so powerful that men commit crimes in which they have absolutely nothing to gain and everything to lose: “senseless” killings like those in schools and post offices, serial murders, domestic violence, stalking, killing their wives and children and then killing themselves. They’re not hate crimes because they don’t hate the people they kill—but those people symbolize their lack of control, and so are killing the “masculinity” on which their whole sense of self depends. In interviews, such men often describe themselves as victims because they believe they should have been allowed to have control. I think we should call such crimes “supremacy crimes.” (continued)
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

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  2. #2
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    Hello Rose

    I do not want to drag up the conversation we have had, but I will make this comment concerning the 32,000 virgins that were taken by the Israelites.

    If "rape in war" is done in these days as in the Congo and other places, it shows that the Israelites following the instruction of God were not barbaric by comparison to what men will do when left to their own devices whether under instruction from their commanding officers or not in the times we are living. The Israelite soldiers did not rape in times of war. The Israelites were under instruction to kill the reprobate people living in the land, and the instruction not to take pleasure in violence towards the women who were to be killed did not have to be given, because that was not part of their remit. The Israelites were not perfect and they did not obey God's instruction to the letter, but nevertheless, they were not as cruel as you would make out.

    Concerning the 32,000 virgins that were taken, though you call it rape when they were later married to the Israelite soldiers, they were treaty with civility and protected as wives.

    That's all I want to say on the matter.

    All the best,

    David

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    An excellent interview of Gloria Steinem by Lauren Wolfe (here).
    There are many reasons why soldiers rape. Male superiority is one thing but from records of soldiers in WW2, we knew that the Russian soldiers rape German women after they occupied Germany at the end of WW2 was mainly as a revenge against the German soldiers raping the Russian women. And their female soldier colleagues even encouraged them. There were also incidents in which soldiers raped so that they could at least have their "generations" in case they died during the war. They also raped as a form of ethnic cleansing in which the babies born were of Russian and German blood and thus unlikely to rebel against the Russian occupiers when they grown up.

    Just for the reverse, do female soldiers rape men? They do for the reasons of having children. The were some recorded incidents in Cambodia during the killing fields in which female Khmer Rouge soldiers raped their male captives before killing them or forced their male captives to marry or have sex with them.

    Women raping men impossible? See for yourself:

    http://www.google.com.sg/#hl=en&outp...w=1128&bih=698

    God Blessed.
    Last edited by CWH; 08-06-2012 at 04:22 AM.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    There are many reasons why soldiers rape. Male superiority is one thing but from records of soldiers in WW2, we knew that the Russian soldiers rape German women after they occupied Germany at the end of WW2 was mainly as a revenge against the German soldiers raping the Russian women. And their female soldier colleagues even encouraged them. There were also incidents in which soldiers raped so that they could at least have their "generations" in case they died during the war. They also raped as a form of ethnic cleansing in which the babies born were of Russian and German blood and thus unlikely to rebel against the Russian occupiers when they grown up.

    Of course there are many "reasons" that men rape women, but all of them are barbaric and unjustified! Instead of trying to come up with reasons why men rape women, you should be raising your voice to condemn rape in any way, shape or form. Rape is NEVER, Never, never justified and the men of the world should rise up with one voice and condemn the barbaric practice of rape. Rape is an affront to the human race that is perpetrated against your mothers, wives, sisters, daughters and your fellow female humans, it does nothing but degrade societies in which men allow these practices to continue without condemnation. Rape could practically be wiped out in a heartbeat if the male leadership of the world (including religious leadership) spoke with one voice and condemned rape as a barbaric practice of uncivilized men.


    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Just for the reverse, do female soldiers rape men? They do for the reasons of having children. The were some recorded incidents in Cambodia during the killing fields in which female Khmer Rouge soldiers raped their male captives before killing them or forced their male captives to marry or have sex with them.

    Women raping men impossible? See for yourself:

    http://www.google.com.sg/#hl=en&outp...w=1128&bih=698

    God Blessed.

    Did you even read the articles you quoted? The only way a woman can rape a man is by seduction, and that is only considered rape if the male is underage. Penetration cannot occur unless a man has an erection which can only happen through arousal, so there is no way a woman can force a man to have intercourse with her unless he is willing. Of course males rape other males all the time, because the male doing the raping is aroused.


    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Rose

    I do not want to drag up the conversation we have had, but I will make this comment concerning the 32,000 virgins that were taken by the Israelites.

    If "rape in war" is done in these days as in the Congo and other places, it shows that the Israelites following the instruction of God were not barbaric by comparison to what men will do when left to their own devices whether under instruction from their commanding officers or not in the times we are living. The Israelite soldiers did not rape in times of war. The Israelites were under instruction to kill the reprobate people living in the land, and the instruction not to take pleasure in violence towards the women who were to be killed did not have to be given, because that was not part of their remit. The Israelites were not perfect and they did not obey God's instruction to the letter, but nevertheless, they were not as cruel as you would make out.

    Concerning the 32,000 virgins that were taken, though you call it rape when they were later married to the Israelite soldiers, they were treaty with civility and protected as wives.

    That's all I want to say on the matter.

    All the best,

    David
    Hello David,

    Instead of focusing on trying to give reasons and justify the Israelite's who raped women and treated them like property, your focus should be on condemning the barbaric practice of rape wherever it is found. Like I said to Cheow, if the men of the world would stand up in support of the other half of the human population, and condemn the barbaric practice of rape it could practically be eliminated.

    Rarely does one see religious leaders speaking out against biblical rape, instead they set about to try and justify it...how pathetic is that? Rape is a barbaric macho male thing that makes men feel powerful, but in reality it is nothing but uncivilized behavior that is common only to the male human animal. It doesn't matter where one finds rape, whether it be in the pages of a religious book, or in a woman"s home it should be denounced in the strongest terms possible! It does nothing but degrade the male mindset, that is why it is so wrong not to call the biblical sexual violation of women what it is...EVIL.

    Stop with the justification and call that which is evil...WRONG, quit trying to make it appear honorable by saying "they were treated with civility and protected as wives". The bottom line is those women DID NOT want to be the wives of those men, they were force into a relationship they DID NOT want! How would you like to be forced to have sex with someone who just killed your entire family? Those women were real people with real feelings just like you or me, so quit trying to dismiss the reality of the matter. Try and put yourself into another persons shoes, you might be surprised.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hello David,

    Instead of focusing on trying to give reasons and justify the Israelite's who raped women and treated them like property, your focus should be on condemning the barbaric practice of rape wherever it is found. Like I said to Cheow, if the men of the world would stand up in support of the other half of the human population, and condemn the barbaric practice of rape it could practically be eliminated.

    Rarely does one see religious leaders speaking out against biblical rape, instead they set about to try and justify it...how pathetic is that? Rape is a barbaric macho male thing that makes men feel powerful, but in reality it is nothing but uncivilized behavior that is common only to the male human animal. It doesn't matter where one finds rape, whether it be in the pages of a religious book, or in a woman"s home it should be denounced in the strongest terms possible! It does nothing but degrade the male mindset, that is why it is so wrong not to call the biblical sexual violation of women what it is...EVIL.

    Stop with the justification and call that which is evil...WRONG, quit trying to make it appear honorable by saying "they were treated with civility and protected as wives". The bottom line is those women DID NOT want to be the wives of those men, they were force into a relationship they DID NOT want! How would you like to be forced to have sex with someone who just killed your entire family? Those women were real people with real feelings just like you or me, so quit trying to dismiss the reality of the matter. Try and put yourself into another persons shoes, you might be surprised.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Good morning Rose

    I condemn rape wherever it is done and I support any cause that will help eliminate it, but seeing what is taking place in the world, I do not think there is enough time and there is not enough will to eradicate the problem as with many other problems man has caused, time is running out.

    In the context of marriage of the 32,000 virgins, it was not rape. If I make it appear honorable, it is to counteract your claim that the women did not accept their situation and that they were forced to have sex if they did not want to. You were not there so you cannot say for definite what took place. I concede that a small percentage might have been raped as in a large group of people there are always rebels, but that does not have to go for the majority. I think what I say has equal value to anything you say to the contrary.

    Did Absalom rape David's wives or did David's wives go willingly with Absalom? I think the motives of David's wives was such that their loyalty went with whoever had the power and influence. The wives of King David probably felt safer and better off by going with Absalom.
    These situations are never as clear cut as we might think they are. Of course there would be some of the 32, 000 virgins who would have objected and then they could be divorced. Maybe by your definition a few felt that they were raped after the ritual of marriage, but I suggest that the majority felt better off (eventually) than if they their families had been at war with any other nation than the Israelites.

    Look at the nations who want to annihilate Israel today. Do you think those nations will show any remorse for killing all of Israel that are composed of men, women, children and babies? Mankind shows how brutal it can be in all generations. Had Israel not gone on the offensive with God fighting for them, they would have been killed by the inhabitants of the land they were entering. If you have to make a decision as to which people are best fitted to enjoy the land, why not consider Israel the better race. Would the Canaanites have shown more mercy to the Hebrews than the Hebrews showed to the Canaanites? I do not think so.
    Until you admit the Canaanites were reprobates and you start to blame man for all of men's problems, instead of God, I will keep reminding readers of your posts that God is not the one to blame. Blaming the people who wrote of the biblegod is not enough. You are promoting the God of the Bible as evil. The Bible says of God; (Jer 9:24) I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD. It is about time you tell of the positive aspects of God and talk about His love to those who also show lovingkindness, wisdom and righteousness to their fellow man and who believe in God and His Son.

    Whether you believe it or not, the Bible shows God as offering us eternal life and what is bad with that? When God has the power to raise to life those who are acceptable and will restore all things and reverse the process of man destroying the earth, then that is good news to promote instead of claiming God is unjust and wicked, when you cannot or do not want to understanding that God is just and is true to His word. God tells us that man will be judged by his works and it is about time that just as you ask me to recognize rape as the brutal act it is, I ask you to start recognizing reprobates as the evil people they were and blame them first before blaming God for their destruction.

    Again, whether you believe it or not, God will set up a kingdom and grant the faithful eternal life on earth in which there will be no evil or injustice no death and no pain and so who else can make you that offer? Reject the offer, if you want to, but do not prevent the young innocent children from coming to God by spreading the message to them that God is evil and He does not exist or that there is nothing to look forward to. You blame God for killing innocent children and yet your rejection of the God of the Bible is effectively killing children by leading children away from God and not teaching them of God's goodness and why it is necessary that we obey God's instruction and love one another and love God as expressed in the two great commandments.

    You will not see it this way, but this is what I fear you are doing, because I do not see anything from you written in a positive way about God, but only negative things. We might think the Bible is speaking to someone else like Jesus did when he spoke against the Pharisees, but in reality the Bible is speaking to us today. The same message that was given to God's chosen people millennia ago is the same message we can learn from today.

    All the best,

    David

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Of course there are many "reasons" that men rape women, but all of them are barbaric and unjustified! Instead of trying to come up with reasons why men rape women, you should be raising your voice to condemn rape in any way, shape or form. Rape is NEVER, Never, never justified and the men of the world should rise up with one voice and condemn the barbaric practice of rape. Rape is an affront to the human race that is perpetrated against your mothers, wives, sisters, daughters and your fellow female humans, it does nothing but degrade societies in which men allow these practices to continue without condemnation. Rape could practically be wiped out in a heartbeat if the male leadership of the world (including religious leadership) spoke with one voice and condemned rape as a barbaric practice of uncivilized men.

    Did you even read the articles you quoted? The only way a woman can rape a man is by seduction, and that is only considered rape if the male is underage. Penetration cannot occur unless a man has an erection which can only happen through arousal, so there is no way a woman can force a man to have intercourse with her unless he is willing. Of course males rape other males all the time, because the male doing the raping is aroused.


    Rose
    Of course, I don't support rape of all kinds. But is it possible to get rid of rape? As long as there is lust of the flesh, it is humanly impossible. Therefore, to get rid of rape is to get rid of lust....pornography, sex toys, nudity, homosexuality, prostituition, fornication, promiscuity, adultery, one-night stand etc. Possible?.....

    I have also shows that not only men rape women, there are cases where women rape men and some can be equally brutal as in the case of Cambodian female Khmer Rouge soldiers pointing a gun at their male captives and forcing them to have sex with them. The male captives were likely killed after that. Women raping male is very humiliating from the male victim's perspective. If someone pointing a gun at you and forcing you to rape men and boys or be killed, would you do it? There are of course other types of rapes..... men to men, women to women. You must get rid of LUST first before you can get rid of rape.

    May God help us get rid of lust and lead us not into temptations.
    Last edited by CWH; 08-06-2012 at 07:53 PM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Good morning Rose

    I condemn rape wherever it is done and I support any cause that will help eliminate it, but seeing what is taking place in the world, I do not think there is enough time and there is not enough will to eradicate the problem as with many other problems man has caused, time is running out.

    In the context of marriage of the 32,000 virgins, it was not rape. If I make it appear honorable, it is to counteract your claim that the women did not accept their situation and that they were forced to have sex if they did not want to. You were not there so you cannot say for definite what took place. I concede that a small percentage might have been raped as in a large group of people there are always rebels, but that does not have to go for the majority. I think what I say has equal value to anything you say to the contrary.

    Did Absalom rape David's wives or did David's wives go willingly with Absalom? I think the motives of David's wives was such that their loyalty went with whoever had the power and influence. The wives of King David probably felt safer and better off by going with Absalom.
    These situations are never as clear cut as we might think they are. Of course there would be some of the 32, 000 virgins who would have objected and then they could be divorced. Maybe by your definition a few felt that they were raped after the ritual of marriage, but I suggest that the majority felt better off (eventually) than if they their families had been at war with any other nation than the Israelites.
    Hi David,

    In the case of the 32,000 virgins it was a clear command from Yahweh carried out by Moses. Those women were not given a choice, but were given to the Hebrew soldiers by orders from Moses. These women had no say in the matter and that is the definition of rape, so there is no way you can say it was not rape. It was men who used the women like war booty without ever even considering the feelings of the women, because women were considered property. Anyone knows that if those women were given a choice they would have chosen freedom.

    I am astonished at the way you speak of women's feelings, there is not a woman on the planet who wants to be passed around from man to man to be screwed. Don't you have a wife or a daughter? Would your wife or daughter want to be given to another man to be raped, because you committed some offense in God's eyes. Women have feelings just like you, they are not alien beings that want to have sex with the men who just murdered their families.

    It's time for believers like yourself to stand up and condemn the atrocities that are contained in the Bible. Whether one believes in God or not, does not change what is wrong, and rape is WRONG. Men are the ones who need to speak out and condemn rape wherever it is found, and that means even in the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Look at the nations who want to annihilate Israel today. Do you think those nations will show any remorse for killing all of Israel that are composed of men, women, children and babies? Mankind shows how brutal it can be in all generations. Had Israel not gone on the offensive with God fighting for them, they would have been killed by the inhabitants of the land they were entering. If you have to make a decision as to which people are best fitted to enjoy the land, why not consider Israel the better race. Would the Canaanites have shown more mercy to the Hebrews than the Hebrews showed to the Canaanites? I do not think so.
    Until you admit the Canaanites were reprobates and you start to blame man for all of men's problems, instead of God, I will keep reminding readers of your posts that God is not the one to blame. Blaming the people who wrote of the biblegod is not enough. You are promoting the God of the Bible as evil. The Bible says of God; (Jer 9:24) I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD. It is about time you tell of the positive aspects of God and talk about His love to those who also show lovingkindness, wisdom and righteousness to their fellow man and who believe in God and His Son.
    The Canaanites could very well have been reprobates, but then so were the Hebrews. The Canaanites offered their children to Moloch and the Hebrews slaughtered the Canaanite children by Yahweh's command...what's the difference? It is accounts like this and all the others in the Bible that has led me to the conclusion that the biblegod does not exist. It is not me who is promoting the biblegod as evil, but rather it is the authors who portray Yahweh in a very evil light. I am only responding to what is written in the pages of Scripture.


    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Whether you believe it or not, the Bible shows God as offering us eternal life and what is bad with that? When God has the power to raise to life those who are acceptable and will restore all things and reverse the process of man destroying the earth, then that is good news to promote instead of claiming God is unjust and wicked, when you cannot or do not want to understanding that God is just and is true to His word. God tells us that man will be judged by his works and it is about time that just as you ask me to recognize rape as the brutal act it is, I ask you to start recognizing reprobates as the evil people they were and blame them first before blaming God for their destruction.

    Again, whether you believe it or not, God will set up a kingdom and grant the faithful eternal life on earth in which there will be no evil or injustice no death and no pain and so who else can make you that offer? Reject the offer, if you want to, but do not prevent the young innocent children from coming to God by spreading the message to them that God is evil and He does not exist or that there is nothing to look forward to. You blame God for killing innocent children and yet your rejection of the God of the Bible is effectively killing children by leading children away from God and not teaching them of God's goodness and why it is necessary that we obey God's instruction and love one another and love God as expressed in the two great commandments.

    You will not see it this way, but this is what I fear you are doing, because I do not see anything from you written in a positive way about God, but only negative things. We might think the Bible is speaking to someone else like Jesus did when he spoke against the Pharisees, but in reality the Bible is speaking to us today. The same message that was given to God's chosen people millennia ago is the same message we can learn from today.

    All the best,

    David
    There are many positive things written in the Bible, and I have said so many times, but there are also just as many or more negatives. I am no longer willing to blind my eyes to the bad and that is why I can no longer believe that the biblegod is the creator of the universe. As I have said many times before, there is no way a male-biased tribal warrior god could be the intelligence behind the cosmos.

    If the Bible is speaking to you today, then it is telling you it is okay to treat women as property, okay to kill a woman's family and give her to the soldiers, and okay to have slaves because that's what the Bible teaches and Jesus never went against any teaching contained in the Bible.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Of course, I don't support rape of all kinds. But is it possible to get rid of rape? As long as there is lust of the flesh, it is humanly impossible. Therefore, to get rid of rape is to get rid of lust....pornography, sex toys, nudity, homosexuality, prostituition, fornication, promiscuity, adultery, one-night stand etc. Possible?.....

    I have also shows that not only men rape women, there are cases where women rape men and some can be equally brutal as in the case of Cambodian female Khmer Rouge soldiers pointing a gun at their male captives and forcing them to have sex with them. The male captives were likely killed after that. Women raping male is very humiliating from the male victim's perspective. If someone pointing a gun at you and forcing you to rape men and boys or be killed, would you do it? There are of course other types of rapes..... men to men, women to women. You must get rid of LUST first before you can get rid of rape.

    May God help us get rid of lust and lead us not into temptations.
    The question remains unanswered. Why is it that rarely does on hear any Christian teacher stand up and condemn the horrendous accounts of rape recorded in the Bible? If rape is wrong when it occurs outside of the Bible then it is wrong when it occurs inside the Bible. Rape is a violation of a woman's human rights and should be condemned, yet I have never in all my reading and study ever found one Christian man stand up and say it was WRONG for Moses to command that all the Midianites be slaughtered EXCEPT for the virgin girls, and then distribute them among the male soldiers. The reason they can't say it is wrong is because Yahweh ordered Moses to do it!

    If the Midianites were so wicked and perverse, why save the virgins and give them to the men for child bearing? It makes no sense! Rape is ALWAYS, Always, always wrong, even when God commands it in the Bible, and it's about time people start standing up a speaking TRUTH.


    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  10. #10
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    The question remains unanswered. Why is it that rarely does on hear any Christian teacher stand up and condemn the horrendous accounts of rape recorded in the Bible? If rape is wrong when it occurs outside of the Bible then it is wrong when it occurs inside the Bible. Rape is a violation of a woman's human rights and should be condemned, yet I have never in all my reading and study ever found one Christian man stand up and say it was WRONG for Moses to command that all the Midianites be slaughtered EXCEPT for the virgin girls, and then distribute them among the male soldiers. The reason they can't say it is wrong is because Yahweh ordered Moses to do it
    !
    Because there is no rape. It doesn't follow the known behavior of a rapist; a rapist will just screw and go, screw and go. No rapist will wait one month for the grieving process to finish and follow customary marriage rites and declare the woman as his wife and him as his husband before screwing the woman. After that the Israelites will leave them as they were unlikely to survive through the wars so that could remarry again. The virgin girls were in fact willing partners as none bothered to resist the presumed "rape" or commit suicide or run away. I repeat NONE.

    If the Midianites were so wicked and perverse, why save the virgins and give them to the men for child bearing? It makes no sense! Rape is ALWAYS, Always, always wrong, even when God commands it in the Bible, and it's about time people start standing up a speaking TRUTH.
    Or do you want all the virgin girls to be killed? Those virgin girls have not committed any sexual sin unlike their parents or the Midianite men, women and even children. God wanted to preserve some of the seeds of the Midianites and merged them with the seeds of the Hebrews and the offsprings will become Israelites so that they will be considered as God's children. Such merger will result in a generation of less wicked people and following the better Hebrew customs instead of the Midianite's evil perverse customs.


    God Bless His people.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

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