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  1. #1
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    Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

    Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
    And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

    Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
    That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

    Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

    If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

    Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankindís responsibility and not some imaginary Godís. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

    Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

    Consider.
    First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
    In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

    Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
    As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
    Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

    Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

    This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

    Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

    There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

    These links speak to theistic evolution.

    http://www.americamagazine.org/conte...rticle_id=1205

    http://www.youtube.com/user/ProfMTH#...8036F680C1DBEB

    If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

    If the above is not convincing enough for you then show me where in this baby evil lives or is a part of itís nature and instincts.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

    Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
    And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

    Regards
    DL

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post

    If the above is not convincing enough for you then show me where in this baby evil lives or is a part of itís nature and instincts.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

    Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
    And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

    Regards
    DL
    Hello DL

    Another set of questions from you. I see you have explained what you believe so I now realize why you won't or cannot answer my questions in my previous posts to you.

    I shall kick off the replies to your questions above.


    I do not think that "sin" is inbuilt. Sin is the result of disobedience. We sin/transgress against the State or the country we live in if we disobey the law of the land. The Bible states (Rom 4:15) for where no law is, there is no transgression.

    So where there is no law, there is no sin.


    Jesus obeyed God's laws (instructions) completely, that means that he never once disobeyed. Therefore, Jesus proved that a person given the correct instruction from the earliest age of being able to understand could follow instruction. Jesus had the very early realization that he was special and would have been told by his mother Mary that he was born of God. This is why Jesus said, when found in the temple; "I must be about my Father's business"

    Jesus proved it was possible to lead a sinless life and thereby vindicated God from all those who who say it was impossible. Jesus was not born sinful, yet Jesus had the capability to sin. This is what Makes Jesus man and could not be God, for God cannot sin, because God is not subject to any law. God has given man laws to follow or reject in the same way as man has imposed laws on himself in order for society to function. Maybe if man followed the law of God, society would function better.

    Until Adam and Eve were given the instruction "not to eat" they had no instruction to disobey. In other ways, Adam and Eve had choice in that in the Garden they could eat of any fruit and we can assume that there was a variety to choose from. So Adam and Eve had choice in what they ate or did but as long as they were under no instruction, they could not sin. For example you can chose when you want to stand up and sit down, you have a choice and whatever you do, you are not sinning because there is not law to say you must "stand up" or you must "sit down"; whatever you decide to do in this respect, it is your freedom to do whatever.

    Now I cannot make you sin. You have a choice. If I said to you for example; "in the next hour you must not sit down" and you decide you are going to sit down and you sit down, then you would have decided to sin against me. I gave you an instruction and you decided that you were not going to obey the instruction. Your decision to sin against me (my instruction) is not something I can make you do. It is the same as you being happy or sad. I cannot make you be happy or sad, it is your state of mind you choose to have.

    Jesus showed us how he overcame the temptation to do evil and sin. We can stop ourselves from doing many things that are sinful if we "have the mind of Christ" as the Apostle Paul exhorts us.
    When Jesus was in the wilderness having thoughts within his mind of the ways in which he could use God's power to his own advantage, Jesus would overcome the temptation by recalling the scriptures which he had read (often) and which he understood (very well). For example, Jesus says when he was tempted the three times; It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.; It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.; for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

    We sin against God or society when the laws of God or the laws of the land are not complied with and we do so either sin by commission when we remember what the law,but fail to comply with it, or sin by omission when we fail to remember what the law is and go against the law.

    Jesus proved it was possible to lead a sinless life and hence it should be possible for anyone with the correct instruction and who has the will-power to follow instruction to lead a sinless life.

    The big problem we have is our own pride, selfishness, greed and headiness. You might call it competitiveness, but why do we need to be competitive? This is one of the great things about the gift of eternal life that God is offering us. Imagine living for eternity in a perfect world - I see no reason for anyone to be competitive when living for eternity in the kingdom of God. It is not like we must "eat, drink and be merry" for tomorrow we die.

    As a concluding scripture to summarize and think about:

    1 John 2
    16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
    17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.



    David
    Last edited by David M; 08-06-2012 at 02:19 AM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello DL

    Another set of questions from you. I see you have explained what you believe so I now realize why you won't or cannot answer my questions in my previous posts to you.

    I shall kick off the replies to your questions above.


    I do not think that "sin" is inbuilt. Sin is the result of disobedience. We sin/transgress against the State or the country we live in if we disobey the law of the land. The Bible states (Rom 4:15) for where no law is, there is no transgression.

    So where there is no law, there is no sin.


    Jesus obeyed God's laws (instructions) completely, that means that he never once disobeyed. Therefore, Jesus proved that a person given the correct instruction from the earliest age of being able to understand could follow instruction. Jesus had the very early realization that he was special and would have been told by his mother Mary that he was born of God. This is why Jesus said, when found in the temple; "I must be about my Father's business"

    Scriptures also say that Jesus learned obedience.
    He disobeyed then and did sin.
    Ignore scripture all you like. It is still there.
    Jesus proved it was possible to lead a sinless life and thereby vindicated God from all those who who say it was impossible.
    A man /God is not a man.

    Jesus was not born sinful, yet Jesus had the capability to sin. This is what Makes Jesus man and could not be God, for God cannot sin, because God is not subject to any law. God has given man laws to follow or reject in the same way as man has imposed laws on himself in order for society to function. Maybe if man followed the law of God, society would function better.
    You said God had no laws. You think we would function better without laws do you?

    Until Adam and Eve were given the instruction "not to eat" they had no instruction to disobey. In other ways, Adam and Eve had choice in that in the Garden they could eat of any fruit and we can assume that there was a variety to choose from. So Adam and Eve had choice in what they ate or did but as long as they were under no instruction, they could not sin. For example you can chose when you want to stand up and sit down, you have a choice and whatever you do, you are not sinning because there is not law to say you must "stand up" or you must "sit down"; whatever you decide to do in this respect, it is your freedom to do whatever.
    It was a unique tree so there was no other "any tree".
    Instructions go against free will do they not?
    Did A & E have free will or not?

    Now I cannot make you sin. You have a choice. If I said to you for example; "in the next hour you must not sit down" and you decide you are going to sit down and you sit down, then you would have decided to sin against me. I gave you an instruction and you decided that you were not going to obey the instruction. Your decision to sin against me (my instruction) is not something I can make you do. It is the same as you being happy or sad. I cannot make you be happy or sad, it is your state of mind you choose to have.
    Did God have to murder A & E for their disobedience?

    Jesus showed us how he overcame the temptation to do evil and sin. We can stop ourselves from doing many things that are sinful if we "have the mind of Christ" as the Apostle Paul exhorts us.
    When Jesus was in the wilderness having thoughts within his mind of the ways in which he could use God's power to his own advantage, Jesus would overcome the temptation by recalling the scriptures which he had read (often) and which he understood (very well). For example, Jesus says when he was tempted the three times; It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.; It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.; for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

    We sin against God or society when the laws of God or the laws of the land are not complied with and we do so either sin by commission when we remember what the law,but fail to comply with it, or sin by omission when we fail to remember what the law is and go against the law.

    Jesus proved it was possible to lead a sinless life and hence it should be possible for anyone with the correct instruction and who has the will-power to follow instruction to lead a sinless life.

    The big problem we have is our own pride, selfishness, greed and headiness. You might call it competitiveness, but why do we need to be competitive? This is one of the great things about the gift of eternal life that God is offering us. Imagine living for eternity in a perfect world - I see no reason for anyone to be competitive when living for eternity in the kingdom of God. It is not like we must "eat, drink and be merry" for tomorrow we die.

    As a concluding scripture to summarize and think about:

    1 John 2
    16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
    17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.



    David
    Less preaching please.
    You have no way of proving any of your B S so keep it to a minimum.


    It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

    If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

    God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

    This then begs the question.

    What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

    Only an insane God. Thatís who.

    The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing itĎs immorality.

    One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women.
    They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqN8E...eature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dspW...eature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c0RF...eature=related


    Can you help but sin is the question at hand. Care to opine?

    Regards
    DL

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
    Less preaching please.
    You have no way of proving any of your B S so keep it to a minimum.


    It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

    If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

    God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

    This then begs the question.

    What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

    Only an insane God. Thatís who.

    The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing itĎs immorality.

    One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women.
    They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqN8E...eature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dspW...eature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c0RF...eature=related


    Can you help but sin is the question at hand. Care to opine?

    Regards
    DL
    You are absolutely right DL! This is the message that needs to be shouted from the housetops. The Bible is so full of male-bias it's hard to read a page that does not contain some form of inequality or violation of a woman's human rights. Why have men been so willing to overlook the gross immorality against women contained in the pages of Scripture? Is it because religion has warped their sense of morality and blinded their eyes? It seems no matter what gross violation of women's rights that God commands men try and justify it...

    All the best,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
    Less preaching please.
    You have no way of proving any of your B S so keep it to a minimum.
    Hello DL

    I will keep this to a minimum, I have responded to another of your posts in which I have said I will not be responding to any more of your post because you cannot maintain a rational discussion and now you have become abusive, it is Goodbye!

    David

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    You are absolutely right DL! This is the message that needs to be shouted from the housetops. The Bible is so full of male-bias it's hard to read a page that does not contain some form of inequality or violation of a woman's human rights. Why have men been so willing to overlook the gross immorality against women contained in the pages of Scripture? Is it because religion has warped their sense of morality and blinded their eyes? It seems no matter what gross violation of women's rights that God commands men try and justify it...

    All the best,
    Rose
    I do more than my share in this and will continue but men will not do right till women demand it.

    Let us pray to all the Gods that women rise up. It is in her hands.

    Regards
    DL

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello DL

    I will keep this to a minimum, I have responded to another of your posts in which I have said I will not be responding to any more of your post because you cannot maintain a rational discussion and now you have become abusive, it is Goodbye!

    David
    That is abuse?

    Strange that you have such a sensitivity to this minor abuse as compared to the policies and God you follow who does a lot worse.

    Then again that would mean choosing your morals and your dogma does not allow for you to take the moral high ground.

    Regards
    DL

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello DL

    Another set of questions from you. I see you have explained what you believe so I now realize why you won't or cannot answer my questions in my previous posts to you.

    I shall kick off the replies to your questions above.


    I do not think that "sin" is inbuilt. Sin is the result of disobedience. We sin/transgress against the State or the country we live in if we disobey the law of the land. The Bible states (Rom 4:15) for where no law is, there is no transgression.

    So where there is no law, there is no sin.
    Hey there David,

    I think you have a false view of morality. It has nothing to do with "rules." It has to do with whether something is right or wrong regardless of "rules" established by anyone. I cannot morallly "sin" against a law of man established by government because those laws are not necessarily moral in the first place. If the are moral, then the sin is against morality, not the law per se.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Jesus obeyed God's laws (instructions) completely, that means that he never once disobeyed. Therefore, Jesus proved that a person given the correct instruction from the earliest age of being able to understand could follow instruction. Jesus had the very early realization that he was special and would have been told by his mother Mary that he was born of God. This is why Jesus said, when found in the temple; "I must be about my Father's business"
    That is not true. Jesus did not obey God's command to stone the adulterous women. His morality was much higher than that because he understood that mercy is a moral virtue. If morality is based on laws, then mercy that violates those laws would be immoral. For example, when God did not punish David for adultery and murder as given in his own law, he was immoral. How would you feel if a man impregnated your married daughter and murdered her husband and then the judge let him go? Obviously, you would say the judge was unjust.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Jesus proved it was possible to lead a sinless life and thereby vindicated God from all those who who say it was impossible. Jesus was not born sinful, yet Jesus had the capability to sin. This is what Makes Jesus man and could not be God, for God cannot sin, because God is not subject to any law. God has given man laws to follow or reject in the same way as man has imposed laws on himself in order for society to function. Maybe if man followed the law of God, society would function better.
    If "God cannot sin" merely because he is above the law, then "sin" cannot be based on law because God most certainly can do things that are sinful (immoral). If you deny this, then words have lost all meaning.

    The Bible causes a lot of confusion about morality because it mixes morality with arbitrary rules that have no moral value, like not eating shellfish.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #9
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    "If you deny this, then words have lost all meaning. "

    That is often the case with Christians who do back flips in language to make their twisted theology make sense.

    I do not like the Muslim theology much as it is male dominated the same as all Abrahamic religions are but this speaker makes sense as compared to Christian dogma that is senseless.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VsN3IG1HtQ

    You will note that in English, genocide is considered a great sin and crime but to Christians, genocide becomes a good tool of justice. Insanity.

    Regards
    DL
    Last edited by Greatest I am; 08-12-2012 at 01:37 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
    I do more than my share in this and will continue but men will not do right till women demand it.

    Let us pray to all the Gods that women rise up. It is in her hands.

    Regards
    DL
    You are right, though it is a sad thing indeed that women have to demand equal human rights from men who already share full human rights. I am grateful for men like yourself that let their voices be heard in the same manner as the free men and women of this country who gave their lives during the Civil War to fight for the freedoms of slaves.

    All the best,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

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