2Thessalonians 2

[Rose]

Hi Dave

Excellent points in your last two posts

Thanks for keeping them short.....each point makes more of an impact that way. When the posts get to long I start to zone out

Rose

[TheForgiven]

Notice a big difference between saying an event can happen any time, and soon. Make no mistake, the apostles and Jesus said His coming was 'about to take place', 'upon us', 'at the doors', in 'a little while', 'near', and it was 'the last hour'...... If you are not familiar with these passages, I will provide them. These statements do not leave room for what they were speaking of to occur over 2000 yrs later. That would make their statements false or a severe twisting of plain language is required. I believe the latter has happened to the futurist interp of eschatology. 'Immenence' is a false doctrine.


again, I'll have to continue later.
Peace to you,
Dave

That was very good brother Dave. I liked how you stated "Immenence is a flase doctrine..." That pretty much sums up what many Futurist believe. When the scriptures speak of "Immenence", to them it means anytime; literally, anytime from the start of creation until its end. This rule enables them to place certain prophesies of the Old and New Testament to pretty much any time frame they desire.

I thought I perhaps solved the case with the "at the door" scriptures, but just incase everyone missed it, here they are again.

Compare these two verses:

Matthew 24
32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you [Apostles] see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

James 5:9
Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

Jesus said when they (The Apostles) saw the things taking place, just as James (one of the Apostles) testifies in his letter, then Christ (The Judge) would be "At the Door".

James saw and wrote, Peter saw and wrote, Paul began to see and wrote, the author of Hebrews saw and wrote, and finally John saw and wrote; every Epistle of the New Testament all testified to the coming of Christ, and the signs to know when his nearness was close, and you can't get any closer than what James stated. James himself, who wrote to the scattered Tribes, warned them of the destruction about to come upon them, especially the rich who "fattened themselves up for the day of slaughter".

The way I see it, it's a done deal according to the "plain" scriptures. I see now way of getting around it. It's impossible. Sorry if I'm confident with the scriptures quoted above, but I just can't for the life of me see any possible way of getting around it.

Joe

[TheForgiven]

Matthew 24
32 'Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you [Apostles] see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

James 5:9
Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

Is there no one who can defend against the fulfillment of the above passages in 70AD?

Joe

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Matthew 24
32 'Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you [Apostles] see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

James 5:9
Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

Is there no one who can defend against the fulfillment of the above passages in 70AD?

Joe

The synergy of those verses is stronger than might be noticed at first glance. There are three time markers in Matt 24:33-34:

• Near (engus)
• At the Door
• This Generation

That seems very emphatic to me. The futurist must explain away all three individually, and as a group. That is why they are so convincing. But hten the first century fulfillment is confirmed again in Rev 1 since "near" (engus) is used in conjunction with "en tachei" and the coming of Christ:

Revelation 1:1-7 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Thus in these three passages, we have the following set of correlated words and ideas:

• The Coming of the Lord/Son of Man with clouds
• It is near
• At the door
• These things will happen shortly
• For the time is near
• This generation shall not pass till all is fulfilled

And this is a very short list of the dozens of mutually confirming interlocking prophecies that demand a first century fulfillment. Anyone who denies that the Olivet Discourse and most if not all of Revelation were fulfilled in the first century has a lot of explaining to do.

Richard