Times of the Gentiles

[David M]

Actually that is not correct my friend. Romans 10:9-10 is not HOW to be baptized; that is an assumption based on a fallacy. Romans 10:9-10 is not HOW a Christian is saved, but is the very salvation of a Christian. In other words, it is not the "process" for salvation, but the "truth" of a saved Christian.

A Christian does not need God to send a Prophet to declare the 10 commandments to them. A Christian does not need someone to explain the resurrection of the dead. Nay, a Christian who professes the Lord Jesus as his/her Lord has already been resurrected from the dead, and through this faith are they saved. That is what Paul was explaining to Christians in Rome who were being confused by Jews who caused trouble stating that Christians must first obey the Laws of Moses before they could be true Christians. Paul counters this argument by showing that a Christian is not saved by observing the Laws of Moses; this would mean that someone would have to come from heaven down to earth and declare the laws of God; as was the case with Moses. Nay, a Christian has the Laws of God in his heart.

Therefore, a Christian who professes that Christ is His Lord, and that God raised Jesus from the dead, are thus proving their salvation through this faith, not site. Thus, Romans 10:9-10 is not HOW to be saved, but the very "TRUTH" of our salvation.

Joseph

Hello Joseph

Romans 10:
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

You are correct in your quotation, but I think belief in Christ must show a commitment to Christ and that can be shown by the works we do which can be just having conversations face to face or as we do on this forum.
Baptism is important and while I would not say that without baptism Jesus is not going to reject everyone, I would say, that if you recognize baptism is something Jesus did and said that it was necessary to do in order to fulfill all righteousness why not do it? Better safe than sorry.

Jesus final instruction to his disciples was: (Mark 16:15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

This is why I think a true and full belief is; submitting to baptism, just as Naaman had to dip himself seven times in the river Jordan before he was healed of leprosy.

Baptism is a simple act of faith which is done before witnesses and is an outward sign of an inward belief. "At the end of the day" and "in the final analysis" as they say; it is what is in a person's heart that will count in the day of judgment. I think it is wise to obey than disobey. I think we should obey the requests of Jesus of which two are; 1)to be baptized and 2) to remember him by taking bread and wine.
Jesus says; "this do in remembrance of me" and whilst that instruction was given to his immediate disciples, we see it was carried out by the Apostle Paul.
1 Corinthians 11:
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

David

[sylvius]

Jesus final instruction to his disciples was: (Mark 16:15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

This is a later addition to the Gospel of Mark ( which ends in Mark 16:8).
So it's very doubtful whether this was "Jesus' final instruction", even more, since if you take it literal it means that every person that is not baptized is lost. Which I think misses the true meaning of what Gospel is, "good tidings".
My take is that baptism is not prerequisite for salvation.

Baptism is a simple act of faith which is done before witnesses and is an outward sign of an inward belief.

I don't take that either.
Baptism means to be confrontated with your own shortcomings, which in fact happens all the time, and from which you try to run away.

[duxrow]

Mk16:15 And he [JESUS] said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
v16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
v17: And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues. v18: They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. v19: So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. v20: And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

These final verses in Mark's Gospel don't say anything that isn't covered elsewhere, but it's like a nutshell
or summarizing of the final words of Jesus and I don't wonder that these 'scraps' were given special attention.

He that believeth and (has change in his pocket) or (understands English) shall be saved...
So, NO, baptism isn't a requirement, but more like respect for the Office of Messiah. Eh?
And, as soon as possible, ASAP, after saying "I Do" in front of witnesses.

[sylvius]

These final verses in Mark's Gospel don't say anything that isn't covered elsewhere, but it's like a nutshell
or summarizing of the final words of Jesus and I don't wonder that these 'scraps' were given special attention.

They were added by one who didn't recognize sense in the ending in Mark 16:8.

He that believeth and (has change in his pocket) or (understands English) shall be saved...
So, NO, baptism isn't a requirement, but more like respect for the Office of Messiah. Eh?
And, as soon as possible, ASAP, after saying "I Do" in front of witnesses.

Ain't it more like respect for the institutional church(es)?

[duxrow]

They were added by one who didn't recognize sense in the ending in Mark 16:8.

Ain't it more like respect for the institutional church(es)?

Cut out by those who don't believe in 'speaking in tongues', and another group who think snake-handling is required. Not considering Satan's device of challenging Jesus to 'jump off a cliff', so to speak -- and he recognized the temptation was scripture, but didn't fall for it.. Like we don't try to match Paul's throwing of the viper at Malta. OK? You think?

[duxrow]

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire" Matt 3:11

Acts1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

It's in Acts 2 that the Fire comes down, similar to the fire that fell on Elijah's sacrifice at Mt. Carmel, when the people agreed that the God who sent down the fire would be the one they'd follow.

[TheForgiven]

Hello Joseph


You are correct in your quotation, but I think belief in Christ must show a commitment to Christ and that can be shown by the works we do which can be just having conversations face to face or as we do on this forum.
Baptism is important and while I would not say that without baptism Jesus is not going to reject everyone, I would say, that if you recognize baptism is something Jesus did and said that it was necessary to do in order to fulfill all righteousness why not do it? Better safe than sorry.

Jesus final instruction to his disciples was: (Mark 16:15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

This is why I think a true and full belief is; submitting to baptism, just as Naaman had to dip himself seven times in the river Jordan before he was healed of leprosy.

Baptism is a simple act of faith which is done before witnesses and is an outward sign of an inward belief. "At the end of the day" and "in the final analysis" as they say; it is what is in a person's heart that will count in the day of judgment. I think it is wise to obey than disobey. I think we should obey the requests of Jesus of which two are; 1)to be baptized and 2) to remember him by taking bread and wine.
Jesus says; "this do in remembrance of me" and whilst that instruction was given to his immediate disciples, we see it was carried out by the Apostle Paul.
1 Corinthians 11:
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

David

Hello Dave! Nice to see you again. Looks like we agree on everything here. If I may ask, what Denomination (or non-Denomination) are you affiliated with? You sound to be from the Alexander Campbell movement, i.e. Christian Church/Church of Christ. That is the Church I grew up in. I no longer attend those Churches, but if I had to choose, I'd probably go with Church of Christ, despite their dislike for musical instruments.

Yes, Baptism is necessary but only because it was commanded; to me it is a salvation issue. Those who refuse baptism do so out of ignorance, as though water were the saving means of our salvation. Actually, water is the tool we use to be buried, and it is the Spiritual water that resurrects us. Physical water is just a symbol use to denote our burial into the ground. When our baptism is accomplished in Jesus name (as the Apostles taught), and by your belief in the resurrection, Baptism thus becomes our source of salvation. Peter states, "it saves you not by the removal of filth of the flesh, but by the answer/response/pledge of a good conscious towards God". Peter used the flood of Noah as the "type" prefiguring baptism. Water destroyed sin in the world, and buried them into the ground; in the same way, water saved the 8. So too with Baptism; we are buried in Jesus name denoting the destruction of our old self, and are raised in Jesus name with His Spirit lifting us out from death and into life. Paul states in Colossians 2 that Baptism saves us through our belief in the Resurrection (see also Romans 10:10). Thus in summary, Baptism is a total act of obedience and testimony of our faith (in action) proving our belief in the resurrection; Baptism is a burial and a resurrection, and in this way, saves us from sin.

Joe

[TheForgiven]

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire" Matt 3:11

Acts1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

It's in Acts 2 that the Fire comes down, similar to the fire that fell on Elijah's sacrifice at Mt. Carmel, when the people agreed that the God who sent down the fire would be the one they'd follow.

Many have tried to use this as an argument against Baptism. But that is not the context. John's baptism was a baptism of repentance; not of rebirth. That is why in the book of Acts, some of John's disciples were preaching the Gospels, but were Baptizing in accordance with how John taught. Jesus taught a Baptism of remission (washing) of sins, and it must also be accomplished in His name. John's disciples, despite preaching the gospels, did not baptize in accordance with Christ.

Furthermore, the Baptism of fire (tongues, miracles, etc.) was limited to the first century. Once the Apostles began dying off, tongues began to cease, along with the different miracles.

In the book of Acts, Peter began preaching to Greeks, and as he was speaking, the Spirit of fire came upon them (Greeks) and they began speaking in tongues. This was a necessary sign to the Jews that God has accepted them despite their lack of physical circumcision, and also to protect Peter from accusations by the Jews that he (Peter) preached to the Gentiles against their wishes. Peter thus says, "Can anyone forbid that these should be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as we had (Pentecost)"? And so he (Peter) ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus. This is the only time the New Testament records anyone receiving the "Gifts" of the Spirit without the laying on of the Apostles hands; this is the key point God was trying to show them, that they (Jews) could not hinder the Gospel from going to the Gentiles.

So John's Baptism was a baptism of repentance, but Jesus Baptism (done in water) is an act of remission and resurrection; two different Baptisms; one in John's instruction, and the other in Jesus.

Joseph

[David M]

Hello Dave! Nice to see you again. Looks like we agree on everything here. If I may ask, what Denomination (or non-Denomination) are you affiliated with? You sound to be from the Alexander Campbell movement, i.e. Christian Church/Church of Christ. That is the Church I grew up in. I no longer attend those Churches, but if I had to choose, I'd probably go with Church of Christ, despite their dislike for musical instruments.

Yes, Baptism is necessary but only because it was commanded; to me it is a salvation issue. Those who refuse baptism do so out of ignorance, as though water were the saving means of our salvation. Actually, water is the tool we use to be buried, and it is the Spiritual water that resurrects us. Physical water is just a symbol use to denote our burial into the ground. When our baptism is accomplished in Jesus name (as the Apostles taught), and by your belief in the resurrection, Baptism thus becomes our source of salvation. Peter states, "it saves you not by the removal of filth of the flesh, but by the answer/response/pledge of a good conscious towards God". Peter used the flood of Noah as the "type" prefiguring baptism. Water destroyed sin in the world, and buried them into the ground; in the same way, water saved the 8. So too with Baptism; we are buried in Jesus name denoting the destruction of our old self, and are raised in Jesus name with His Spirit lifting us out from death and into life. Paul states in Colossians 2 that Baptism saves us through our belief in the Resurrection (see also Romans 10:10). Thus in summary, Baptism is a total act of obedience and testimony of our faith (in action) proving our belief in the resurrection; Baptism is a burial and a resurrection, and in this way, saves us from sin.

Joe

Hello Joe
It is good that we agree on baptism, I know we have other differences. We are more likely to have a more reasoned discussion about the parts of the Bible we do not agree with at the moment.
I do not want to be drawn and be identified with any other Christian sect, they might not want to be identified with some things I say, and for the same reason that if I say I share the same beliefs as ..... I shall be tarred with the same brush. It is better to keep all post and comments on a personal basis rather than representing any one set of views. In our way, we all belong to truth seekers, though we might all appear to be a truth demolisher by God for some of the things state about the Bible.

Back to this point of baptism. You are correct, that baptism is a sign of repentance. It is a physical sign in front of witnesses that a person is repentant and is prepared to change their ways. Repentance means a complete turn around and going in the opposite direction. Like the broad way that leads to destruction, the narrow way leading to life eternal means going in the opposite direction. It is the same as the Apostle Paul says about putting off the old man and putting on the new man as demonstrated in the life of Jesus (Colossians 3:8-10)

It is said of Paul that he does not mention the resurrection of Jesus, but that is not true. Paul does not have to refer to events in the same way as the Gospel writers have given us. Paul refers to events in a different way. What Paul does is write about the death and resurrection of Jesus in other ways. For example Romans 6 is the do with baptism and Paul likens baptism to the death and resurrection of Jesus. The parallels are clear enough from that chapter and it has to be realized that Paul is speaking in spiritual way. This is where a lot of misunderstanding can come in and unless a person can understand the spiritual message will not make sense of what Paul is saying. Once the spiritual message is sought out and understood, that is when the coherency of the Bible comes into better focus and we begin to see more clearly; it is like having the veil removed from our eyes and for us all our eyes might still be partly veiled, and so in seeking truth, we seek the lifting of the veil completely.

All the best,
David

[TheForgiven]

Hello again Dave:

There's no need to be ashamed of what Church you attend. To me, you sound very similar to the Christian Church as established by Alexander Campbell. But because you have a Dispensational attribute, you may very well be part of the First United Pentecostal Church (UPC) as they too preach Baptism (Acts 2:38).

I'm interested not because I want to label you; it'll save me a lot of research on what your positions are. I know about nearly every single denomination; even those who claim to be nondenominational. I've studied nearly every "traditional" Church except the new rising Churches that conjure up new titles or names. To me, the ever division of Protestants is proof of their fallacy; instead of getting alone, they choose to divide and conquer.

Anyways, I'm glad that you and I agree on Acts 2:38. It is impossible to refuse Baptism legally.

Joseph