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  1. #1
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    Jesus shot himself!

    I believe in God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad!

    The Evil comes from the greed, the envy and from arrogance.

    Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

  2. #2
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    Why are you so anti-Christian? Allah said that he gave the Gospel to Jesus. Why don't you believe the Gospel that Allah gave?

    Maybe you don't understand the Gospel that Allah gave. Here, let me give it to you straight from the mouth of Jesus Christ, the Son of Allah:

    John 3:16 [And Jesus said] For Allah so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Why are you so anti-Christian? Allah said that he gave the Gospel to Jesus. Why don't you believe the Gospel that Allah gave?

    Maybe you don't understand the Gospel that Allah gave. Here, let me give it to you straight from the mouth of Jesus Christ, the Son of Allah:

    John 3:16 [And Jesus said] For Allah so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    God has no son, He doesn't need son (or daughter), because He is everlasting!

    112:1-4 Say: He is Allah, the One and Only! Allah, the Eternal Refuge, He begetteth not nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him.

    Calm down Richard, that video is a kind of proof that something is on fire!

    Why the lightning from all the buildings of the world hit the church and the statue of Jesus? Don't you think this was a small warning?
    I believe in God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad!

    The Evil comes from the greed, the envy and from arrogance.

    Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by culi26 View Post
    God has no son, He doesn't need son (or daughter), because He is everlasting!

    112:1-4 Say: He is Allah, the One and Only! Allah, the Eternal Refuge, He begetteth not nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him.
    Well, Allah better get his act together because he seems to be talking out of both sides of his mouth. First he says he gave the Torah and the Gospel, then he contradicts what he said in the Torah and the Gospel. Very confusing!

    Quote Originally Posted by culi26 View Post
    Calm down Richard, that video is a kind of proof that something is on fire!
    And I'm totally calm and peaceful. What made you think otherwise?

    Quote Originally Posted by culi26 View Post
    Why the lightning from all the buildings of the world hit the church and the statue of Jesus? Don't you think this was a small warning?
    The Sunis are killing the Shia and the Shia are killing the Sunis. Lightning has struck the heart of Islam - the religion of peace. Don't you think that might be a small indication that something is wrong with your religion?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  5. #5
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    Hello Richard and Culi26

    This goes to show that there can be no compromizing when it comes to the word of God on who God is. It is the reason why those who think that the various Christian religions should unite.

    The Quran and the Bible have fundamentally different things to say. Jesus cannot be solely a prophet when God says he is 'Son of God' and 'Son of Man' and those to titles have to be understood in the proper context. This why Allah of the Quran cannot be the God of the Bible. Any way of reconciling the two is not possible. There is no middle ground to this.

    Culi26, you are opposed to Christianity and God the same as I am opposed to the Quran and Allah. All we can do is try to reason things out and appreciate each others faith and try to get the other side to understand our point of view. We do not have to get upset by each others remarks about the faith they have. In fact I agree with Muslims in as much as 'Jesus is not God' and I have even used a Muslim video (post #150) to convey the same reasons the video explains. The truth will stand wherever it comes from and will withstand anything that is thrown against it. Just let the words and the arguments speak for themselves. We do not have to get upset by what anyone says, as long as what is said is not abusive or offensive.

    I look forward to constructive posts from you.

    All the best

    David
    Last edited by David M; 07-05-2012 at 03:29 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Richard and Culi26

    This goes to show that there can be no compromizing when it comes to the word of God on who God is. It is the reason why those who think that the various Christian religions should unite.

    The Quran and the Bible have fundamentally different things to say. Jesus cannot be solely a prophet when God says he is 'Son of God' and 'Son of Man' and those to titles have to be understood in the proper context. This why Allah of the Quran cannot be the God of the Bible. Any way of reconciling the two is not possible. There is no middle ground to this.

    Culi26, you are opposed to Christianity and God the same as I am opposed to the Quran and Allah. All we can do is try to reason things out and appreciate each others faith and try to get the other side to understand our point of view. We do not have to get upset by each others remarks about the faith they have. In fact I agree with Muslims in as much as 'Jesus is not God' and I have even used a Muslim video (post #150) to convey the same reasons the video explains. The truth will stand wherever it comes from and will withstand anything that is thrown against it. Just let the words and the arguments speak for themselves. We do not have to get upset by what anyone says, as long as what is said is not abusive or offensive.

    I look forward to constructive posts from you.

    All the best

    David
    Good morning David,

    Given that you agree with Islam and disagree with Christianity concerning the nature of Jesus (which is perhaps the most fundamental question), it seems to me you would have a good motivation to apply your hermeneutical skills to resolve the apparent contradictions between the Quran and the Bible.

    Your statement that "the Quran and the Bible have fundamentally different things to say" is not really true. Indeed, they have a LOT more agreement than disagreement. Take a look at my thread called A Common Confession of Faith for Christians and Muslims and you will see what I mean. Who is to day that the differences could not be reconciled with a proper analysis? Think of the direct contradictions within the Bible itself, such as Peter's assertion that angels have sinned, which you have completely resolved by careful analysis. Why do you assume that such a reconciliation is impossible with the Quran?

    You stand in perfect unity with Muslims on many, many points of central importance. For example, you have said "I believe Jesus was an ordinary man, who achieved excellence by his obedience to God's instruction." This is exactly what the Quran teaches.

    This is why I am confused by your comment that "Jesus cannot be solely a prophet when God says he is 'Son of God' and 'Son of Man' and those to titles have to be understood in the proper context." Please explain what you meant. Have you considered the possibility that the Quran was correcting a false understanding of "Son of God" just like you? It was written in Arabic and you haven't studied it and you have heard all sorts of polemical misrepresentations of what it means so maybe it really is perfectly consistent with the Bible when properly understood. It claims that Allah gave the Torah, the Psalms, the Gospel, and the Quran. How can you know if that is false if you haven't studied it?

    Your comment that Muslims are "opposed to Christianity and God the same as I am opposed to the Quran and Allah" seems to contain two inaccuracies. First, Christian Bibles written in Arabic use the word "Allah" to mean "God." Muslims would not agree that they are "opposed to God" in any way at all. Second, your opposition to "Christianity" is identical to that of Muslims on the issue of the Trinity and the Divinity of Christ, and for all you know, there may be other points where you agree with Muslim opposition to traditional Christianity. You'll never know till you check it out. Given that you reject so much of "traditional" Christianity, it may be that the traditional Christian opposition to Islam is just another error.

    This is a fascinating topic. Neither the Bible nor the Quran actually says anything. It all comes down to how folks interpret the writings. And given that Christians often come to opposite conclusions when interpreting the Bible, it should be no surprise that Christians and Muslims disagree about things that may in fact be reconcilable.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Well, Allah better get his act together because he seems to be talking out of both sides of his mouth. First he says he gave the Torah and the Gospel, then he contradicts what he said in the Torah and the Gospel. Very confusing!


    And I'm totally calm and peaceful. What made you think otherwise?


    The Sunis are killing the Shia and the Shia are killing the Sunis. Lightning has struck the heart of Islam - the religion of peace. Don't you think that might be a small indication that something is wrong with your religion?
    Nothing wrong with the religion, almost everything wrong with those who practice it!

    2:190 Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.

    I think this is clear to you when Muslims are allowed to fight!

    But people can choose, to obey laws of God or to follow their own desires!

    And Richard, you have no knowledge about shia! But i don't blame you, that is probably what you read or hear in media!

    Keep in mind, the word shia means SECTS! They are a lot of sects, but only few of them fight with Sunni Muslims!
    I believe in God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad!

    The Evil comes from the greed, the envy and from arrogance.

    Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by culi26 View Post
    Nothing wrong with the religion, almost everything wrong with those who practice it!
    A Christian would say the same thing. So who is right, and how do we tell?

    Quote Originally Posted by culi26 View Post
    2:190 Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.

    I think this is clear to you when Muslims are allowed to fight!

    But people can choose, to obey laws of God or to follow their own desires!
    It doesn't matter what the Quran teaches if Muslims don't obey it, and you have just said that "everything is wrong with those who practice it." So apparently the Quran has no more power than the Bible to lead people in the path of peace and truth. If it did, then why don't the "true Muslims" correct the many problems in their countries? For example, Muslim countries are extremely oppressive when it comes to religion. People born Muslim who want nothing but freedom to follow their own beliefs are imprisoned, killed, and harassed if they reject it. This directly contradicts the Quran which states that "there is no compulsion in religion."

    Muslims are totally confused about the meaning of the most simple verse in the Quran. Here's an article that discusses their confusion:

    What do Muslims believe regarding freedom of religious choice? A Koranic verse (2:256) answers: "There is no compulsion in religion"(in Arabic: la ikrah fi'd-din). That sounds clear-cut and the Islamic Center of Southern California insists it is, arguing that it shows how Islam anticipated the principles in the U.S. Constitution. The center sees the First Amendment ("Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof") as based on concepts in the Koran's no-compulsion verse.

    In a similar spirit, a former chief justice of Pakistan, S.A. Rahman, argues that the Koranic phrase contains "a charter of freedom of conscience unparalleled in the religious annals of mankind." To a Western sensibility, this interpretation makes intuitive sense. Thus does Alan Reynolds, an economist at the CATO Institute, write in the Washington Times that the verse signifies that the Koran "counsels religious tolerance."

    Were it only so simple.

    In fact, this deceptively simple phrase historically has had a myriad of meanings.
    Here are some of them, mostly premodern, deriving from two outstanding recent books, Patricia Crone's God's Rule: Government and Islam (Columbia University Press) and Yohanan Friedman's Tolerance and Coercion in Islam (Cambridge University Press), augmented by my own research. Proceeding from least liberal to most liberal, the no-compulsion phrase is considered variously to have been:

    • Abrogated: The passage was overridden by subsequent Koranic verses (such as 9:73: "O Prophet! Struggle against the unbelievers and hypocrites and be harsh with them").
    • Purely symbolic: The phrase is a description, not an imperative. Islam's truth is so obvious that to coerce someone to become a Muslim does not amount to "compulsion"; or else being made to embrace Islam after defeat in war is not viewed as "compulsion."
    • Spiritual, not practical: Governments may indeed compel external obedience, though they, of course, cannot compel how Muslims think.
    • Limited in time and place: It applied uniquely to Jews in Medina in the seventh century.
    • Limited to non-Muslims who live under and accept Muslim rule: Some jurists say it applies only to "Peoples of the Book" (Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians); others say it applies to all infidels.
    • Excludes some non-Muslims: Apostates, women, children, prisoners of war, and others can indeed be compelled. (This is the standard interpretation that has applied in most times and places.)
    • Limited to all non-Muslims: Muslims must abide by the tenets of Islam and may not apostatize.
    • Limited to Muslims: Muslims may shift from one interpretation of their faith to another (such as from Sunni to Shia), but may not leave Islam.
    • Applied to all persons: Reaching the true faith must be achieved through trial and testing, and compulsion undercuts this process.

    Massive disagreement over a short phrase is typical, for believers argue over the contents of all sacred books, not just the Koran. The debate over the no-compulsion verse has several important implications.

    First, it shows that Islam - like all religions - is whatever believers make of it. The choices for Muslims range from Taliban-style repression to Balkan-style liberality. There are few limits; and there is no "right" or "wrong" interpretation. Muslims have a nearly clean slate to resolve what "no compulsion" means in the 21st century.

    Conversely, nonspecialists should be very cautious about asserting the meaning of the Koran, which is fluid and subjective. When Alan Reynolds wrote that the no-compulsion verse means the Koran "counsels religious tolerance," he intended well but in fact misled his readers.

    Further, many other areas of Islam have parallels to this debate. Muslims can decide afresh what jihad signifies, what rights women have, what role government should play, what forms of interest on money should be banned, plus much else. How they resolve these great issues affects the whole world.
    Finally, although Muslims alone will make these decisions, Westerners can influence their direction. Repressive elements (such as the Saudi regime) can be set back by a reduced dependence on oil. More liberal Muslims (such as the Atatürkists) can be marginalized by letting an Islamist-led Turkey enter the European Union.

    What non-Muslims do also has potentially a great impact on whether "no compulsion in religion" translates into religious tolerance or permits (as in the case of Salman Rushdie) a license to kill.
    As you can see, there is total confusion about the meaning of this very simple verse! This is the same problem with any dogmatic religion. It is why there are so many different sects in both Christianity and Islam. The only thing the "Word of God" accomplishes, whether the Quran or the Bible, is to generate confusion and warring religious sects.

    Quote Originally Posted by culi26 View Post
    And Richard, you have no knowledge about shia! But i don't blame you, that is probably what you read or hear in media!

    Keep in mind, the word shia means SECTS! They are a lot of sects, but only few of them fight with Sunni Muslims!
    Do you think a Shiite would agree with your analysis?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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