Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
The following is from post #38, to Richard.

As far as is currently understood here, the kingdom of heaven/G_d comes here on earth, and the Bible makes no mention of it's locale forever elsewhere.

How about this?
Torah reveals G_d is a consuming fire...and it's believed everyone is going to get the chance to be with G_d (and in the presence of His holy angels, too), but some just will not make it through...from these things and more, Isaiah 33.13-17 makes much more sense...and II Peter 3 fits in nicely somewhere around here as well.
Okay. Maybe this also fits in with 1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
Hey there Charisma,

Nice to see you. It's been a while.

When I read those words of Peter, I think he was talking to the first century Christians about the trials that they were suffering under the domination of the anti-Christian Jews who fulfilled the words of Christ:
Mark 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
Obviously, the Jews will never again have power to drag Christians (in general) into synagogues to be beaten. The times that Peter spoke of are now long past, though the encouragement he offered them can be applied to Christians suffering at any time.

Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

With regard to the Lord's words (above) there does seem to be a 'place' implied by 'go', which is not 'here' (earth), so the question of 'where' He was going, and 'where' we will be (apart from 'receive'd by Him to Himself) ties in with my not being clear what you meant by this:
Actually, I think a careful analysis of that whole chapter makes it clear that Jesus was talking about "going to the cross" when he said "go." That's how he made a "place" for Christians before the Father. Note that the word "mansions" is "mone" which means "dwelling place" (it is interesting the the Greek root MoNe is the root of the latin MaNsion) and that this is the word used later in the same chapter to refer to believers are "dwelling places" of God.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode (mone, mansion) with him.
Jesus was not promising to take believers elsewhere. He promised to go to the cross to make a "place" for believers before God, so God/Christ could come back and indwell them. I explain this in some detail in my post called An Exegesis of John 14.

Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
Ephesians says we are now seated in the heavenlies, yet this is in reference to being in Christ isn't it? ...and please explain if something is being missed about what that does actually mean? (If it is not a statement of being in the faith(fulness) of Yeshua, and instead, we are indeed, spirit and soul and bodily already in heaven, why do we need to go there?)
First you seem to be saying heaven is coming here - oops! I mean the kingdom of heaven (They may not be the same thing.) and then you say that 'if' we we're in heaven because we're in Christ, therefore don't need to go 'there'; in which case, is your point that clearly we are not in heaven or Christ would not need to come back?

This leads on to your saying that the 1 Corinthians 15 verse, about being 'asleep in Christ' is 'out of context'. What is the difference between being alive in Christ and asleep in Christ, if we are all the time in Christ, seated with Him in heavenly places while we are clothed in mortal flesh? And, why will there be saints with Him as He returns, if they were not with Him 'before' then? How are you separating the living from the dead (as it were), when even the dead are alive in Christ through the faith they exercised before they were asleep in Him? I'm sure you have an explanation. (I'm all ears. )


I look forward to it, and will save my other questions until you've had time to reply.

Blessings!
Contradictions arise if we take metaphors literally.

Examples;

Are we already resurrected? Paul said we have already been "raised up" - "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:6).

What does it mean to be seated with Christ in the heavenlies?

Where are those who sleep in Christ? Paul says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. So are the dead awake or asleep in the Lord?

Have we already come to the heavenly Jerusalem? Hebrews says yes and adds that the heavenly Jerusalem is the Church:
Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
And John says the New Jerusalem is the Bride of the Lamb and Paul says the Bride of the Lamb is the Church. So there's lots of mutual confirmation amongst all these ideas.

Yet there is so much confusion! What is that? Why can't people who believe the Bible agree about what it says?

Don't want to get lost in words games. Is there a "plain message" that folks can all agree on in the Bible?

Great chatting!

Richard