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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    This video should make any Christian stop and think about what they really believe in...

    I stopped and thought about it. Here is my answer:

    Extract:

    Matthew 9:11-13

    New International Version (NIV)


    11 When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

    12 On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’[a] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

    End Extract:

    also

    The parable of the good samaritan:

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...37&version=NIV

    I have a feeling God being a God of love and mercy has considered people who have not heard the gospel message.

    Extract:

    This is a faithful saying worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. (KJV)

    End Extract:

    http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew7/D7...atBelieve.html


    -------

    I'm going to throw something extra in. Has anyone ever considered when Jesus was talking about hell he was talking about earth?

    Who did he say the father of this world was?

    I have a good life but when I see the starving kids in Africa on TV I know there "IS" hell on earth. If that is not Hell I'm not sure what is. But even though I have a good life I'm still faced with uncertainty, guilt about others like the kids in Africa and my own mortality and potential illnesses etc. I'm hoping we live in a virtual reality so everything just appears worse then it is to toughen our spirit.

    The Quantum Conspiracy: What Popularizers of QM Don't Want You to Know

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEaecUuEqfc

    Are we in a virtual reality with God running it before we can enter eternal paradise?
    Last edited by luke1978; 07-03-2012 at 04:16 AM.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke1978 View Post
    I stopped and thought about it. Here is my answer:

    Extract:

    Matthew 9:11-13

    New International Version (NIV)


    11 When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

    12 On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’[a] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

    End Extract:

    also

    The parable of the good samaritan:

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...37&version=NIV

    I have a feeling God being a God of love and mercy has considered people who have not heard the gospel message.

    Extract:

    This is a faithful saying worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. (KJV)

    End Extract:

    http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew7/D7...atBelieve.html


    -------

    I'm going to throw something extra in. Has anyone ever considered when Jesus was talking about hell he was talking about earth?

    Who did he say the father of this world was?

    I have a good life but when I see the starving kids in Africa on TV I know there "IS" hell on earth. If that is not Hell I'm not sure what is. But even though I have a good life I'm still faced with uncertainty, guilt about others like the kids in Africa and my own mortality and potential illnesses etc. I'm hoping we live in a virtual reality so everything just appears worse then it is to toughen our spirit.

    The Quantum Conspiracy: What Popularizers of QM Don't Want You to Know

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEaecUuEqfc

    Are we in a virtual reality with God running it before we can enter eternal paradise?
    Hey there Luke,

    I get the impression you reject the premise of the video that people go to heaven or hell based on whether or not they believe in Jesus. Is that correct? If so, it sounds like you reject the traditional Christian Gospel. Is this what you intended to communicate?

    What is your opinion about Christ, the Gospel, and the Bible? Does it matter what a person believes? What happens to believers and unbelievers when they die?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Hey there Luke,

    I get the impression you reject the premise of the video that people go to heaven or hell based on whether or not they believe in Jesus. Is that correct? If so, it sounds like you reject the traditional Christian Gospel. Is this what you intended to communicate?

    What is your opinion about Christ, the Gospel, and the Bible? Does it matter what a person believes? What happens to believers and unbelievers when they die?
    Yes I reject the most common interpretation and thoses verses were an example of why. Even when Jesus healed on the Sabbath they tried to accuse him of breaking the law. It seems to me God has more common sense then men. Christians today are making the same mistakes as the Pharisees did. Love and mercy must always come before any laws. My own conscience tells me that is common sense and it is the conscience that God gave me.

    I am a Christian but I do not conform to man made interpretations even if 99 out of 100 other Christians say I'm wrong. Maybe I'm the lost sheep

    Yes Jesus is the way, truth and the life and "nobody" comes to the father except through him. Whether someone knows about Jesus or not he is very merciful. So through him you could still go to the father as he knows everybody even if they do not know him. I still think we should be telling people the "good news" that Jesus died for us to show that God has grace and considering I'm going to die he set a good example as he showed me death should not be feared as he rose again on the 3rd day.

    I have no idea what to expect at the moment of death.

    If any Christian wants to say I'm wrong then they need to take that verse from Timothy out of the Bible. However I feel Jesus has called me to seek him so I do that every day and it gives me comfort through the holy spirit. Probably as I have always had a deep fear of death as some others do he lead by example on the cross. Actually a God who does that for us when you consider the world we see around us is probably the most genuine one to believe in!

    Have you ever considered Jesus is an incarnation of the "all that is" trying to get us out of the material world and way of thinking? - We could all be trapped in the Higgs field!
    Last edited by luke1978; 07-03-2012 at 07:05 PM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke1978 View Post
    Yes I reject the most common interpretation and thoses verses were an example of why. Even when Jesus healed on the Sabbath they tried to accuse him of breaking the law. It seems to me God has more common sense then men. Christians today are making the same mistakes as the Pharisees did. Love and mercy must always come before any laws. My own conscience tells me that is common sense and it is the conscience that God gave me.

    I am a Christian but I do not conform to man made interpretations even if 99 out of 100 other Christians say I'm wrong. Maybe I'm the lost sheep

    Yes Jesus is the way, truth and the life and "nobody" comes to the father except through him. Whether someone knows about Jesus or not he is very merciful. So through him you could still go to the father as he knows everybody even if they do not know him. I still think we should be telling people the "good news" that Jesus died for us to show that God has grace and considering I'm going to die he set a good example as he showed me death should not be feared as he rose again on the 3rd day.

    I have no idea what to expect at the moment of death.

    If any Christian wants to say I'm wrong then they need to take that verse from Timothy out of the Bible. However I feel Jesus has called me to seek him so I do that every day and it gives me comfort through the holy spirit. Probably as I have always had a deep fear of death as some others do he lead by example on the cross. Actually a God who does that for us when you consider the world we see around us is probably the most genuine one to believe in!
    Hey there Luke,

    Fascinating answer! I agree that love and mercy should always take precedence over rules.

    It sounds like you hold your faith with a gentle grip. That is very good. Keep the open mind.

    I just watch the video on the Quantum Problem of Measurement. It was excellent. Thanks. I've always known there were problems with the Copenhagen interpretation which talks about the "collapse" of the state vector, since that violates Schrodinger's equation. It's very elegant to think of measurement as entanglement with subsequent change in the statistical distribution which matches what we observe macroscopically.

    But why exactly did you post it?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Hey there Luke,

    Fascinating answer! I agree that love and mercy should always take precedence over rules.

    It sounds like you hold your faith with a gentle grip. That is very good. Keep the open mind.

    I just watch the video on the Quantum Problem of Measurement. It was excellent. Thanks. I've always known there were problems with the Copenhagen interpretation which talks about the "collapse" of the state vector, since that violates Schrodinger's equation. It's very elegant to think of measurement as entanglement with subsequent change in the statistical distribution which matches what we observe macroscopically.

    But why exactly did you post it?
    Why not! - I just edited my last post and put something on the end of it for you to consider?

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke1978 View Post
    Why not! - I just edited my last post and put something on the end of it for you to consider?
    Are you referring to this sentence?

    "Have you ever considered Jesus is an incarnation of the "all that is" trying to get us out of the material world and way of thinking? - We could all be trapped in the Higgs field!"

    If so ... I don't have any idea what you could mean when you say we could be trapped in a "Higgs field." I think you will have to elaborate a little on that idea.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Are you referring to this sentence?

    "Have you ever considered Jesus is an incarnation of the "all that is" trying to get us out of the material world and way of thinking? - We could all be trapped in the Higgs field!"

    If so ... I don't have any idea what you could mean when you say we could be trapped in a "Higgs field." I think you will have to elaborate a little on that idea.
    OK forget about the Higgs field. Jesus came to teach us spiritual growth as flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. This is why I believe in the 666 to 777 transformation.

    The Resurrection Body

    35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

    42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

    If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.

    50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[h]


    55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
    Where, O death, is your sting?”[i]

    56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke1978 View Post
    OK forget about the Higgs field.
    Why did you mention it if you didn't want to explain what you meant? Did you think I would just "know" what you intended? If so, it must be pretty obvious and so easy to explain.

    Quote Originally Posted by luke1978 View Post
    Jesus came to teach us spiritual growth as flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. This is why I believe in the 666 to 777 transformation.
    I understand that you like the numbers 666 and 777 as symbols of "incomplete" and "complete" but they really don't mean much by themselves. Numbers are like words - their meaning depends on context.

    Quote Originally Posted by luke1978 View Post
    The Resurrection Body
    Why did you quote that passage?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Why did you mention it if you didn't want to explain what you meant? Did you think I would just "know" what you intended? If so, it must be pretty obvious and so easy to explain.


    I understand that you like the numbers 666 and 777 as symbols of "incomplete" and "complete" but they really don't mean much by themselves. Numbers are like words - their meaning depends on context.


    Why did you quote that passage?
    I quoted that passage to make my point about flesh and blood not inheriting the kingdom of God.

  10. #50
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    Hell is for Children. A Christian Parable

    Hello Timmy,

    I think I'm understanding your reply to me apart from my questions.

    The following is from post #38, to Richard.

    As far as is currently understood here, the kingdom of heaven/G_d comes here on earth, and the Bible makes no mention of it's locale forever elsewhere.

    How about this?
    Torah reveals G_d is a consuming fire...and it's believed everyone is going to get the chance to be with G_d (and in the presence of His holy angels, too), but some just will not make it through...from these things and more, Isaiah 33.13-17 makes much more sense...and II Peter 3 fits in nicely somewhere around here as well.
    Okay. Maybe this also fits in with 1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

    John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.


    With regard to the Lord's words (above) there does seem to be a 'place' implied by 'go', which is not 'here' (earth), so the question of 'where' He was going, and 'where' we will be (apart from 'receive'd by Him to Himself) ties in with my not being clear what you meant by this:

    Ephesians says we are now seated in the heavenlies, yet this is in reference to being in Christ isn't it? ...and please explain if something is being missed about what that does actually mean? (If it is not a statement of being in the faith(fulness) of Yeshua, and instead, we are indeed, spirit and soul and bodily already in heaven, why do we need to go there?)
    First you seem to be saying heaven is coming here - oops! I mean the kingdom of heaven (They may not be the same thing.) and then you say that 'if' we we're in heaven because we're in Christ, therefore don't need to go 'there'; in which case, is your point that clearly we are not in heaven or Christ would not need to come back?

    This leads on to your saying that the 1 Corinthians 15 verse, about being 'asleep in Christ' is 'out of context'. What is the difference between being alive in Christ and asleep in Christ, if we are all the time in Christ, seated with Him in heavenly places while we are clothed in mortal flesh? And, why will there be saints with Him as He returns, if they were not with Him 'before' then? How are you separating the living from the dead (as it were), when even the dead are alive in Christ through the faith they exercised before they were asleep in Him? I'm sure you have an explanation. (I'm all ears. )


    I look forward to it, and will save my other questions until you've had time to reply.

    Blessings!
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

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