Hanukkah

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hallo there Codebreaker!

I'm really glad you decided to join in on this discussion. I really want to dig deep with folks who hold different points of view.

Second, Daniel's 70th week was also fulfilled in the first century. Otherwise the angel's words appear to be meaningless, since he said that everything would be completed in 70 weeks. He didn't say "in 70 weeks + 2000 years." There is no justification for a 2000+ year gap as far as I can see.

Hi again Ram,

Let me start by asking you a question.

If Daniel's 490 years is already fulfilled, where's Jesus? Why isn't he ruling from his throne in Jerusalem? Are you in the amillennialist camp?

Where in Daniel 9 is there a prophecy that says Christ will be ruling from his throne in Jerusalem?

And yes, I am "amillennialist" - have you noticed that Rev 20 does not say that Christ will be ruling on earth? And that there are no prophecies anywhere in the entire Bible that say there will be a future Millennial kingdom? I have a rule that won't allow me to teach anything not clearly supported by at least two or three Scriptures. Therefore, I can not believe in a future earthly Millennial rule of Christ.

Do you recognize the New Jerusalem as the Church?

I can't fathom the idea that Christ first coming fulfilled all messianic Prophecies. Yes He did fulfill all spiritual prophecies that were promised to Abraham and spoken about by the prophets concerning are spiritual state including being grafted into the Israelite nation. But remember we replaced Israel only temporarily.

We never replaced Israel. Remember the Church born at Pentecost was made up of the Remnant of faithful Israel. Then the Gentiles were grafted in. There was never any "replacement." The unbelieving carnal children of Abraham's flesh were never given any promises by God. All of God's promises were given to the children of promise = the Church of Christ, as it is written: "Now we [Christians], brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise" (Galatians 4:28).

For now there are two branches one righteous and one unrighteous. God will graft them back together at time of the fulness of gentiles. A time when all Israel will be saved. There's too many Prophecies that suggest otherwise, like Isaiah. 66:8 for instance.

Romans 11:26 does not say that "all Isreal will be saved" "after" the fulness of the Genitles comes in. The word "and so" means "in this way" not "then." As for Isaiah 66:8

Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Is there a reason we should not take this reference to "children" to be the same as those mentioned in Hebrews 2?

Hebrews 2:12-14 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. 13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

What makes you think Isaiah 66:8 is still future? why would you think it applies to anything other than the primary Gospel message of the entire Bible? True eschatology is the Gospel. It seems to me that a focus on carnal Israel is contrary to its most basic teachings.

That's were the gap theory comes in, I believe the 2000 years and counting time frame is being used by God to bring this about.

I believe this can be supported in part by the words of Jesus at the beginning of Jesus ministry, in Luke 4:18,19, jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1,2 anouncing His ministry of reconciliation when he "proclaimed the year of the Lord's favor".

Interestingly Jesus roled up the scroll choosing to not finish the sentance that proclaimed God's favor becouse it ended with the words "the day of vegeance of our God". Or to put it plainly, this was the time of favor not a time of God's vegeance; at least not yet.

I'm glad you brought that up! Its a perfect example of a very common error that needs correction. You are correct that Jesus stopped in midsentence because it was "not yet" the time of God's vengeance. But then Jesus declared the time of God's vengeance with absolute precision later in the same book:

Luke 21:20-22 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

We know that Jerusalem was surrounded by armies in the first century. We know this prophecy was fulfilled at that time because Jesus was answering the question about when the first century Temple would be destroyed. Thus we see the perfect clarity of the Holy Word. The days of vengeance came upon apostate Jerusalem in 70 AD. The passage you quoted does not support a gap theory. On the contrary, it is a primary witness to the fulfillment of Christ's prophecy in the first century.

I know there's a group of believer's called amillennialist that say this vegeance of God was delivered in 70 AD, and that the kingdom of God and His rule is allready fulfilled through Christ Church the ekklesia. The problem I have with this allegorical view is that

Its not really accurate to call it an "allegorical view" because an allegory is a figure of speach used in fictional stories like "Pilgrim's Progress" where every actor plays a symbolic role, usually of an abstract concept. For example, the main character was a man named "Christian" who was attacked by a giant called "Despair" and got nearly lost in a city called "Vanity." To suggest that the preterist view treats the Bible like an allegorical story is a gross perversion of the truth. Now don't get me wrong! I'm not blaming you for this error. You've learned it from others. We are in the midst of a hermeutical war filled with erroneous polemics, (the word polemics comes straight from the Greek polemos = war) and we all know that Turth is often the the first causualty of war.

The problem I have with this allegorical view is that the prophecies pertaining to Christ Second Coming seem to have stopped being taken literally.

The "prophecies" of Christ's Second coming are filled with things that folks don't "take literally." So the first thing we need to do is to ESTABLISH the facts that we can know with great certainty, such as the first century fulfillment of the integrated prophetic complex of Daniel, Revelation, and the Olivet Discourse, and then we might have a hope to understand the prophecies of the Second Coming.

I think this non literal stance of the events surrounding His "Second Coming" is a mistake as it was a mistake to not take His first coming literally. Look at what happened to the religous Jews of Jesus days?

I would love to walk through this with you - verse by verse.

Even so, I'm convinced the key to unlocking the why of why did Jesus stop in mid sentence of "proclaiming the year of the Lord's favor (he rolled up the scroll at this point) and the day of vegeance of out God," is becouse there is an unknown period of time that lies beween the favor (grace) and vegeance (wrath) that we call the gap. This gap is the time period where Christ ekklesia is being built up as a result of God's mercy on the gentiles, and his wrath against Judah (Jew's).

As shown above, Jesus filled that "gap" Himself when He proclaimed the "Days of Vengeance" came in 70 AD.

Ram, there seems to be two time lines, consisting of 2000 years. One that's being used to build up the Body of Christ, and one that's being used to discipline God's natural line Judah. These two time lines seem to be heading to the intersection called the abomination of desolation, spoken of by both Daniel and Jesus. This event will mark the countdown of the last 3 1/2 years before the prophecy found in Isaiah 66:8 and Ezekiel 37 among others, is fulfilled.

God bless you Ram

Code.

I don't understand why you don't see Ezekiel 37 as fulfilled in the first century. God fulfilled His promise to put His Spirit in Israel (Ezek 37:14) at Pentecost, at which time He united the "two sticks" of the houses of Judah and Israel as one in Christ (Ezek 37:16) and then grafted in the Gentiles (Eph 2:15) to make one new man. This is confirmed in the New Covenant of Jer 31:31 that was made with both houses of Judah and Israel, and then the Gentiles were grafted in. All the prophecies cohere perfectly with the GOSPEL - for the Gospel is True Eschatology. And we have explicit confirmation that Ezekiel 37 was fulfilled in the New Covenant:

Ezekiel 37:26-28 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Paul declares that this was fulfilled in 2 Corithians. Note that the fulfillment involves both the Temple (Tabernacle) and God being with us:

2 Corinthians 6:16-18 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almight

And all this fits perfectly with the explicit teaching of Revelation that the New Jerusalem is the Church. Thus the preterist view of Revelation as fulfilled in the first cerntury fits perfectly with every other aspect of this integrated prophetic complex that was completed in the coming of our Great and Mighty God, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Well, that's enough for a start.

God bless you my brother! Again, I would be truly delighted to dig deep with you on these issues.

Richard