Hanukkah

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hallo there Codebreaker!

I'm really glad you decided to join in on this discussion. I really want to dig deep with folks who hold different points of view.

Second, Daniel's 70th week was also fulfilled in the first century. Otherwise the angel's words appear to be meaningless, since he said that everything would be completed in 70 weeks. He didn't say "in 70 weeks + 2000 years." There is no justification for a 2000+ year gap as far as I can see.

Hi again Ram,

Let me start by asking you a question.

If Daniel's 490 years is already fulfilled, where's Jesus? Why isn't he ruling from his throne in Jerusalem? Are you in the amillennialist camp?

Where in Daniel 9 is there a prophecy that says Christ will be ruling from his throne in Jerusalem?

And yes, I am "amillennialist" - have you noticed that Rev 20 does not say that Christ will be ruling on earth? And that there are no prophecies anywhere in the entire Bible that say there will be a future Millennial kingdom? I have a rule that won't allow me to teach anything not clearly supported by at least two or three Scriptures. Therefore, I can not believe in a future earthly Millennial rule of Christ.

Do you recognize the New Jerusalem as the Church?

I can't fathom the idea that Christ first coming fulfilled all messianic Prophecies. Yes He did fulfill all spiritual prophecies that were promised to Abraham and spoken about by the prophets concerning are spiritual state including being grafted into the Israelite nation. But remember we replaced Israel only temporarily.

We never replaced Israel. Remember the Church born at Pentecost was made up of the Remnant of faithful Israel. Then the Gentiles were grafted in. There was never any "replacement." The unbelieving carnal children of Abraham's flesh were never given any promises by God. All of God's promises were given to the children of promise = the Church of Christ, as it is written: "Now we [Christians], brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise" (Galatians 4:28).

For now there are two branches one righteous and one unrighteous. God will graft them back together at time of the fulness of gentiles. A time when all Israel will be saved. There's too many Prophecies that suggest otherwise, like Isaiah. 66:8 for instance.

Romans 11:26 does not say that "all Isreal will be saved" "after" the fulness of the Genitles comes in. The word "and so" means "in this way" not "then." As for Isaiah 66:8

Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Is there a reason we should not take this reference to "children" to be the same as those mentioned in Hebrews 2?

Hebrews 2:12-14 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. 13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

What makes you think Isaiah 66:8 is still future? why would you think it applies to anything other than the primary Gospel message of the entire Bible? True eschatology is the Gospel. It seems to me that a focus on carnal Israel is contrary to its most basic teachings.

That's were the gap theory comes in, I believe the 2000 years and counting time frame is being used by God to bring this about.

I believe this can be supported in part by the words of Jesus at the beginning of Jesus ministry, in Luke 4:18,19, jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1,2 anouncing His ministry of reconciliation when he "proclaimed the year of the Lord's favor".

Interestingly Jesus roled up the scroll choosing to not finish the sentance that proclaimed God's favor becouse it ended with the words "the day of vegeance of our God". Or to put it plainly, this was the time of favor not a time of God's vegeance; at least not yet.

I'm glad you brought that up! Its a perfect example of a very common error that needs correction. You are correct that Jesus stopped in midsentence because it was "not yet" the time of God's vengeance. But then Jesus declared the time of God's vengeance with absolute precision later in the same book:

Luke 21:20-22 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

We know that Jerusalem was surrounded by armies in the first century. We know this prophecy was fulfilled at that time because Jesus was answering the question about when the first century Temple would be destroyed. Thus we see the perfect clarity of the Holy Word. The days of vengeance came upon apostate Jerusalem in 70 AD. The passage you quoted does not support a gap theory. On the contrary, it is a primary witness to the fulfillment of Christ's prophecy in the first century.

I know there's a group of believer's called amillennialist that say this vegeance of God was delivered in 70 AD, and that the kingdom of God and His rule is allready fulfilled through Christ Church the ekklesia. The problem I have with this allegorical view is that

Its not really accurate to call it an "allegorical view" because an allegory is a figure of speach used in fictional stories like "Pilgrim's Progress" where every actor plays a symbolic role, usually of an abstract concept. For example, the main character was a man named "Christian" who was attacked by a giant called "Despair" and got nearly lost in a city called "Vanity." To suggest that the preterist view treats the Bible like an allegorical story is a gross perversion of the truth. Now don't get me wrong! I'm not blaming you for this error. You've learned it from others. We are in the midst of a hermeutical war filled with erroneous polemics, (the word polemics comes straight from the Greek polemos = war) and we all know that Turth is often the the first causualty of war.

The problem I have with this allegorical view is that the prophecies pertaining to Christ Second Coming seem to have stopped being taken literally.

The "prophecies" of Christ's Second coming are filled with things that folks don't "take literally." So the first thing we need to do is to ESTABLISH the facts that we can know with great certainty, such as the first century fulfillment of the integrated prophetic complex of Daniel, Revelation, and the Olivet Discourse, and then we might have a hope to understand the prophecies of the Second Coming.

I think this non literal stance of the events surrounding His "Second Coming" is a mistake as it was a mistake to not take His first coming literally. Look at what happened to the religous Jews of Jesus days?

I would love to walk through this with you - verse by verse.

Even so, I'm convinced the key to unlocking the why of why did Jesus stop in mid sentence of "proclaiming the year of the Lord's favor (he rolled up the scroll at this point) and the day of vegeance of out God," is becouse there is an unknown period of time that lies beween the favor (grace) and vegeance (wrath) that we call the gap. This gap is the time period where Christ ekklesia is being built up as a result of God's mercy on the gentiles, and his wrath against Judah (Jew's).

As shown above, Jesus filled that "gap" Himself when He proclaimed the "Days of Vengeance" came in 70 AD.

Ram, there seems to be two time lines, consisting of 2000 years. One that's being used to build up the Body of Christ, and one that's being used to discipline God's natural line Judah. These two time lines seem to be heading to the intersection called the abomination of desolation, spoken of by both Daniel and Jesus. This event will mark the countdown of the last 3 1/2 years before the prophecy found in Isaiah 66:8 and Ezekiel 37 among others, is fulfilled.

God bless you Ram

Code.

I don't understand why you don't see Ezekiel 37 as fulfilled in the first century. God fulfilled His promise to put His Spirit in Israel (Ezek 37:14) at Pentecost, at which time He united the "two sticks" of the houses of Judah and Israel as one in Christ (Ezek 37:16) and then grafted in the Gentiles (Eph 2:15) to make one new man. This is confirmed in the New Covenant of Jer 31:31 that was made with both houses of Judah and Israel, and then the Gentiles were grafted in. All the prophecies cohere perfectly with the GOSPEL - for the Gospel is True Eschatology. And we have explicit confirmation that Ezekiel 37 was fulfilled in the New Covenant:

Ezekiel 37:26-28 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Paul declares that this was fulfilled in 2 Corithians. Note that the fulfillment involves both the Temple (Tabernacle) and God being with us:

2 Corinthians 6:16-18 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almight

And all this fits perfectly with the explicit teaching of Revelation that the New Jerusalem is the Church. Thus the preterist view of Revelation as fulfilled in the first cerntury fits perfectly with every other aspect of this integrated prophetic complex that was completed in the coming of our Great and Mighty God, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Well, that's enough for a start.

God bless you my brother! Again, I would be truly delighted to dig deep with you on these issues.

Richard

[Code breaker]

Hi again Ram,

Thank's for the info, I'll take a deeper look into all your comments. I can tell your very well versed in God's word. Though I don't agree with the amillennialist viewpoint, I do respect your intellectual prowess, I can certainly learn a few things.

It will be a week or so before I can adequately respond to you arguments. It won't be on this Hanukkah thread. I will start a new thread or something.

God bless you,

Code

Hi White

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi again Ram,

Thank's for the info, I'll take a deeper look into all your comments. I can tell your very well versed in God's word. Though I don't agree with the amillennialist viewpoint, I do respect your intellectual prowess, I can certainly learn a few things.

It will be a week or so before I can adequately respond to you arguments. It won't be on this Hanukkah thread. I will start a new thread or something.

God bless you,

Code

Hi White

Hey there Code,

Sounds good! I look forward to your thoughtful response. And I am sure that I too will learn a lot.

And a new thread is a very good idea. They never seem to stay on any one topic, but it helps if we start them out on target.

God bless you my brother!

Richard

[White]

Hi Richard,

Allow me to make an attempt to explain how and why I feel in my heart that I need to follow Torah Observance to the best of my knowledge. I think it will help you understand me better and all those who are in the same situation,
where the HOLY SPIRIT tugs at your heart and tells you to go against the Teachings of the Apostle Paul who was sent to witness to the Gentiles. Thus I say: I'm Paul in reverse- - my witness is to the Jewish People and Religious Leaders and unless I understand their customs my witness is empty and weightless.

IS there a difference between Judaism/Torah Observance and Messianic/Torah Observance? Are they the same??? yes/no!!! Torah Observance before the Cross imposed a curse/bondage on those that struggled to observe. For those whom it was a struggle, were doing it in their own strength and not by their faith in/and by the Grace of God. Abraham did it because it was on/in his heart and it was counted "unto him as righteousness". There were many others that were also "saved" by Grace prior to the Cross. They were righteous men and women. Jesus refers to them in the NT and ELIJAH and Moses appeared with Him on the Mountain of transfiguration, where Peter wanted to build 3 Sukkahs, one for Jesus, one for Moses and one for Elijah. (Feast of Sukkot / Tabernacle and Jesus "tabernacled" among us as HE is kept in the Tabernacle in the Catholic Church. )

As I mentioned many times and tried to convey in my many posts, it is NOT that we MUST observe TORAH to be saved. We are saved by the BLOOD OF CHRIST, but Messianic Torah Observance is done "Totally from within the heart". This desire for obedience in observing Torah comes from our believing faith in the saving Grace of our Lord Jesus/Y'shua - a Jewish Man and GOd's only begotten SON who died on the Cross to remove the curse/bondage that struggling to live an "observant" TORAH life put upon us. God knew that we could not/never would be able to live up to the demands of the "Law"...thus comes the struggle/curse. Confusing?

Once Christ's blood was shed for mankind, the curse was removed. Freedom to observe/follow Torah with JOY is now available to everyone who "believes" in the Messiah, believes in the heart and confesses with the mouth! . And upon our receiving the Gift of salvation, God wrote HIS law upon our hearts. Therein lies our opportunity for beautiful, blessing giving obedience......to honor, LOVE, and obey our Heavenly Father. He has provided us the path to serve, honor, love and obey HIM in all things without the fear of curse. So if I light the candles on Friday night for Shabbat, or if I keep Hanukkah, Feast of Tabernacle, Passover or any of the other major Festivals (11 althogether), I do it because I want to feel closer to GOD, understanding HIS WAYS better and going out of my way to get closer to HIM by learning the Jewish way of life, which is 2000 years older than Christianity - (from 1995 BC with Father Abraham - the FIRST Jew - to Present , approx. 4000 years) and because Jesus says : "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE/LIGHT, NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME" - JOHN 14:6.

We know we will fail/sin as we are still in our state of imperfection and will stay in that condition until our "saved" soul departs our earthly body and ascends to the Heavens to be present for the Bridal reunion with our BrideGroom. We are a work in progress and herein lies the TRUTH that we are working-out our salvation.....our sanctification...our redemption... by being in tune with the HOLY SPIRIT, which will only come upon us once we have accepted JESUS CHRIST as LORD & SAVIOR. Amen. The Bible says that we may even "blaspheme JESUS" and repent, but the unpardonable sin is this: "Do not blaspheme the HOLY SPIRIT". Thus, when we walk with the HOLY SPIRIT and HE puts Torah observance on our hearts, we would grieve HIM gravely, if we did not follow His prompting. I pray that the LORD will reveal this hidden truth to you, RIchard. Isaiah Chapter 11 is a great Chapter to meditate on. (11:11ff)

The Mystery of the Torah lies in the Gospel of Christ. The Old concealed, the New revealed. GOD himself has divided the covenant........OT/NT, but they are not to be divided, they are to complement each other. God never intended for it to be divided. The Gospel is and always has been ONE GOSPEL and that is in our Lord Jesus Christ, the ONE and only Son of God who shed HIS blood on the cross for all our sins, past, present and future.

I hope and pray that this will clarify my position and give you peace of mind, especially coming up on Christmas - which really refers to as "Christ's Mass", the most appropriate Mass would be the MIDNIGHT MASS on 12/24.

Thus let us scream for all to hear : Merry Christmas

SHalom to you and all on this Hanukkah post,
may the LORD have Mercy on us, His Servants,
and may HE bring Peace to Jerusalem and the Holy Land
with Jesus / Y'Shua in the hearts of all people.

Monique

[White]

Addition: Pray some more :
I just read the following article after I posted the Hanukkah Post and I found it interesting that the Shabbat before Christmas the last Chapter of Genesis 49 is being read in all the Synaogogues. See below :

Torah Portion of the Week
Vayechi

The parsha, Torah portion, opens with Jacob on his deathbed 17 years after arriving in Egypt. Jacob blesses Joseph's two sons, Manasseh (Menashe) and Ephraim (to this day it is a tradition to bless our sons every Shabbat evening with the blessing, "May the Almighty make you like Ephraim and Manasseh" -- they grew up in the Diaspora amongst foreign influences and still remained devoted to the Torah. The Shabbat evening blessing for girls is "to be like Sarah, Rivka, Rachel and Leah.") He then individually blesses each of his sons. The blessings are prophetic and give reproof, where necessary.

A large retinue from Pharaoh's court accompanies the family to Hebron to bury Jacob in the Ma'arat Hamachpela, the burial cave purchased by Abraham. The Torah portion ends with the death of Joseph and his binding the Israelites to bring his remains with them for burial when they are redeemed from slavery and go to the land of Israel. Thus ends the book of Genesis!

* * *

Dvar Torah
based on Growth Through Torah by Rabbi Zelig Pliskin

Before Jacob's death, the Torah tells us,

"And Ya'akov (Jacob) called to his sons, and he said, 'Gather together and I will tell you what will befall you in the end of days' " (when the Jewish people will be redeemed from galus, exile) (Genesis 49:1).
What did Ya'akov mean when he used the phrase "Gather together"?

When Ya'akov told his sons to gather together he meant that they should have achdus , unity amongst themselves. Only when there is unity among the descendants of Ya'akov can there be redemption. If there is not yet unity, it is not yet time for redemption.

With this we can understand what Yosef's brothers meant when they said to him later on (Genesis 50:16-7) that before Ya'akov's death he requested that Yosef forgive them. No where in the Torah is it recorded that Ya'akov asked Yosef to forgive his brothers. However, the commentary of the Shaloh tells us that the answer can be seen in our verse where Ya'akov asks the brothers to "Gather together". Ya'akov was asking all of them, including Yosef, for unity and the deep love that comes from unity. Where there is love, there is forgiveness.

This is a crucial issue for our time. People are very different from one another in many ways. However, if all the descendants of Ya'akov realize how important it is to have achdus, this unity will bring about a love that transcends the specific complaints one person has against another.



CANDLE LIGHTING - December 21
(or go to http://www.aish.com/shabbat/candlelighting.asp)

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard,

Allow me to make an attempt to explain how and why I feel in my heart that I need to follow Torah Observance to the best of my knowledge.

Hello my friend!

I am very happy that you have taken the time and the effort to explain you understanding of Scripture. It is most welcome here.

I think it will help you understand me better and all those who are in the same situation, where the HOLY SPIRIT tugs at your heart and tells you to go against the Teachings of the Apostle Paul who was sent to witness to the Gentiles. Thus I say: I'm Paul in reverse- - my witness is to the Jewish People and Religious Leaders and unless I understand their customs my witness is empty and weightless.

Did you really intend that red sentence to come out that way? I mean, you don't really believe that God has directed you to go against the teachings of the New Testament do you?

IS there a difference between Judaism/Torah Observance and Messianic/Torah Observance? Are they the same??? yes/no!!! Torah Observance before the Cross imposed a curse/bondage on those that struggled to observe. For those whom it was a struggle, were doing it in their own strength and not by their faith in/and by the Grace of God. Abraham did it because it was on/in his heart and it was counted "unto him as righteousness".

Again, I must ask if you really intended this second red sentence to come out that way? The problem is that Abraham was declared righteous because of his FAITH, not because of His obedience to the Torah. That's the whole point of Romans 4:

Romans 4:11-12 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

There were many others that were also "saved" by Grace prior to the Cross.

All people who ever have been saved were saved by grace. No one was ever saved by the Law. The Law kills becuase of sin. It never saves anyone. "For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law." (Galatians 3:21)

They were righteous men and women. Jesus refers to them in the NT and ELIJAH and Moses appeared with Him on the Mountain of transfiguration, where Peter wanted to build 3 Sukkahs, one for Jesus, one for Moses and one for Elijah. (Feast of Sukkot / Tabernacle and Jesus "tabernacled" among us as HE is kept in the Tabernacle in the Catholic Church. )

As I mentioned many times and tried to convey in my many posts, it is NOT that we MUST observe TORAH to be saved. We are saved by the BLOOD OF CHRIST, but Messianic Torah Observance is done "Totally from within the heart". This desire for obedience in observing Torah comes from our believing faith in the saving Grace of our Lord Jesus/Y'shua - a Jewish Man and GOd's only begotten SON who died on the Cross to remove the curse/bondage that struggling to live an "observant" TORAH life put upon us. God knew that we could not/never would be able to live up to the demands of the "Law"...thus comes the struggle/curse. Confusing?

The error is that the Law does not help "perfect" your walk with God. That is why God inspired Paul to write to the Galatians. They thought that they would go back to the "Torah" and still be Christians. God said NO! Here's how Paul explained it:

Galatians 3:1-12 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you,Received ye the Spirit by the works of the LAW, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the FLESH? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 ¶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the LAW are under THE CURSE: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

God does not want you to try to obey Torah! That's why He sent Christ to die.

Once Christ's blood was shed for mankind, the curse was removed. Freedom to observe/follow Torah with JOY is now available to everyone who "believes" in the Messiah, believes in the heart and confesses with the mouth! .

That teaching directly contradicts the Gospel as taught by Paul. If you want any Christian to accept your teaching, you MUST explain what God meant when He inspired Paul to write Galatians 5:1-9:

Galatians 5:1-9 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 ¶ Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. 7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. 9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

The "leaven" is the false doctrine of Torah keeping! Paul directly contradicts the circumcision commandment of the Torah to prove to you that no Christian should attempt to "keep Torah." This is the fundamental Gospel. If you reject this doctrine you reject the Gospel of Christ, regardless of how passionately you proclaim your love for Him. That is why God inspired Paul to begin the letter to the Galatians with these words:

Galatians 1:6-9 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Paul was talking specifically abou the doctrine that Christians should "keep Torah."

And upon our receiving the Gift of salvation, God wrote HIS law upon our hearts. Therein lies our opportunity for beautiful, blessing giving obedience......to honor, LOVE, and obey our Heavenly Father.

Exactly correct! And does God command Christians to keep Torah? No! Therefore, if you want to obey God, you will obey His Word which tells you that you must keep the WHOLE TORAH without failing in a single point if you want to please Him through "keeping Torah." You are utterly deceived if you think that the mighty and the terrible God who gave His Son to redeem us from the curse of Torah is pleased to see HIS CHILDREN fraudulently playing with the Torah to please their own selves, as if they are doing something for Him! The sorry truth is that you are trampling God's Word underfoot when you disregard what He has revealed through His inspired Apostle.

He has provided us the path to serve, honor, love and obey HIM in all things without the fear of curse.

True! And who is that path? Jesus is the Way that leads to life. YOu have been been deceivd my friend if you believe that you will find the way to God through the Torah. Jesus is the Way! He died to free you from the CURSE of the Law. I am pleading with you to consider the Holy Word of Almighty God! He has revealed everything with perfect clarity in His Bible. Your doctrine of "Christian Torah keeping" is a heresy and an abomination in the sight of Almighty God.

So if I light the candles on Friday night for Shabbat, or if I keep Hanukkah, Feast of Tabernacle, Passover or any of the other major Festivals (11 althogether), I do it because I want to feel closer to GOD, understanding HIS WAYS better and going out of my way to get closer to HIM by learning the Jewish way of life, which is 2000 years older than Christianity - (from 1995 BC with Father Abraham - the FIRST Jew - to Present , approx. 4000 years) and because Jesus says : "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE/LIGHT, NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME" - JOHN 14:6.

Yes, if you like to light your candles and act out the Jewish rituals of Shabbat, that is perfectly fine. The Bible says you can not be judged for that. But that is just your personal preference, and I simply could not care less what you do in that respect. You are utterly free, my friend. But that is not what we are talking about. You have presented Torah keeping as if it were a command from Almighty God. You have argued that we should keep Torah because it has not been "done away with." Those errors are so serous that God wrote a whole book (and many parts of many others) to warn HIS PEOPLE away from falling back under the Torah.

We know we will fail/sin as we are still in our state of imperfection and will stay in that condition until our "saved" soul departs our earthly body and ascends to the Heavens to be present for the Bridal reunion with our BrideGroom. We are a work in progress and herein lies the TRUTH that we are working-out our salvation.....our sanctification...our redemption... by being in tune with the HOLY SPIRIT, which will only come upon us once we have accepted JESUS CHRIST as LORD & SAVIOR. Amen. The Bible says that we may even "blaspheme JESUS" and repent, but the unpardonable sin is this: "Do not blaspheme the HOLY SPIRIT". Thus, when we walk with the HOLY SPIRIT and HE puts Torah observance on our hearts, we would grieve HIM gravely, if we did not follow His prompting. I pray that the LORD will reveal this hidden truth to you, RIchard. Isaiah Chapter 11 is a great Chapter to meditate on. (11:11ff)

Jesus Christ would never contradict His Own Word as revealed in the Holy Bible. And the Bible condemns "Christian Torah keeping" in no uncertain terms. Therefore, I see only three possibilities:

1) You misunderstood the prompting from God's Spirit,
2) You misunderstood the Scriptures,
3) been prompted by a spirit other than that of God.

The Mystery of the Torah lies in the Gospel of Christ. The Old concealed, the New revealed. GOD himself has divided the covenant........OT/NT, but they are not to be divided, they are to complement each other. God never intended for it to be divided. The Gospel is and always has been ONE GOSPEL and that is in our Lord Jesus Christ, the ONE and only Son of God who shed HIS blood on the cross for all our sins, past, present and future.

Yes, the Gospel is One Gospel. But hte Torah is NOT the Gospel! Have you never read what the New Testament says about the Torah?

Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Have you not noticed that you write as if you have not read anything that the New Testament Epistles say about the Law? Why is that? Why do you ignore God's Word on this issue, and choose instead to go your own way? I have confronted you with these Scriptures over and over and over again for months on end and you have never responded to them! Please explain your understanding of Paul's teaching on the Torah. Please! This has been going on far too long.

I hope and pray that this will clarify my position and give you peace of mind, especially coming up on Christmas - which really refers to as "Christ's Mass", the most appropriate Mass would be the MIDNIGHT MASS on 12/24.

The unfortunate truth is, my friend, that it "clarifies" the sad fact that you have not responded to God's Word on this very important issue. I pray you will soon.

Richard

[White]

Hello,
I posted this last Sunday night - see below GENESIS 49:1 especially - GATHER TOGETHER AND I WILL TELL YOU WHAT WILL BEFALL YOU IN THE END OF DAYS"

************
Dvar Torah
based on Growth Through Torah by Rabbi Zelig Pliskin

Before Jacob's death, the Torah tells us,

"And Ya'akov (Jacob) called to his sons, and he said, 'Gather together and I will tell you what will befall you in the end of days' " (when the Jewish people will be redeemed from galus, exile) (Genesis 49:1).
What did Ya'akov mean when he used the phrase "Gather together"?

***************
Attending my Catholic Church on Monday Morning - I was stunned to discover that the Church actually was reading the following :

GENESIS 49:2 then skip to 49:8-10

To make it clear: I found the above article and posted it, especially Genesis 49:1 and the very next morning, the following verse is read in all the Catholic Churches around the world :

GENESIS 49:2 "Assemble and listen, sons of Jacob, listen to Israel, your
father."

v. 8-10: You Judah, shall your brothers praise, your hand on the neck
of your enemies; the sons of your father shall bo down to
you. Judah like a lion's whelp.... 10 - the scepter never
shall depart from Judah, or the mace from between his legs.

It might not look to you that I walk with the Holy SPirit but I would say that this is pretty good proof that I am. Not only did the Catholic Church read exactly the continueing verse from Genesis 49 (the reading did start with verse 2, totally ignoring verse 1 and the jumped to verse 8-10 - in my opinion the most important passage in all scripture : "THE SCEPTER SHALL NEVER DEPART FROM JUDAH" but again, I want to stress that this will be AFTER the JEWS/JUDAH accept JESUS / Y'SHUA as MESSIAH on a large scale, not before.) - but at the same time this verse in Genesis 49:1 is talking about what will happen to the 12 tribes "in the end of days" - when the Jewish people will be redeemed from exile as Rabbi Zelig Pliskin states so clearly.

Last Monday was the only day the Church reads from this particular passage before Christmas, but I continually ask the LORD for Signs and Wonders to confirm my steps. This was a great confirmation that I am walking with the Holy Spirit contrary to Richard's last post claiming that I follow a "Spirit other than God's". May the LORD JESUS - My LORD and SAVIOR - be the judge on this matter and the state of my soul and not Richard.

I have continually stressed that my witness is to the Jewish People and as such I need to understand their customs and beliefs. That is why I said "I'm Paul in reverse" - Paul was sent to the Gentiles :
Acts 18:6
But when the Jews opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, "Your blood be on your own heads! I am clear of my responsibility. From now on I will go to the Gentiles."

As Genesis 49:1 clearly asks is that the "12 Tribes Gather Together" and my many posts on this forum have given witness to my work in this respect. The Holy SPirit is grieved when brethren "in Christ" attack each other, when it is crystal clear that GOD is not finished with the Jewish People, HE loves them and HE has a plan that is a plan for a hope and a future with MESSIAH Y'SHUA / JESUS. I would like to quote Paul who is the object of much scorn and misunderstanding especially when interpreted by the Rabbis who after nearly 2000 years proclaim that PAUL / SAUL taught against TORAH. But here are Paul's most famous words:

"Love is patient, love is kind,... love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing. For we know partially and we prophesy partially, but when the PERFECT COMES, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things. At present, we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present, I know partially, then I shall know fully as I am fully known. So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatet of these is L O V E.

When Jacob says "Gather together" he means "Gather together and love one another" - How then can we overcome the obstacles and proclaim the TRUE GOD of ISRAEL to the Jewish People, unless we practice what HE commands of us : "That is LOVE ONE ANOTHER" or as Corinthian 14:1 says : "PURSUE LOVE" for the sake of the KINGDOM of God.

Let us be open to the fact that the Bible is written by Jews for the Jews to save the Jews because JESUS says in John 4:22 : "You people worship what you do not understand; we worship what we understand, because [COLOR="red"]"SALVATION is from the Jews".[/COLOR]

SHalom to Jerusalem and the Holy Land
Shalom to Richard and the Biblewheel Gang this Christmas
Shalom to all who follow the leading of the Holy SPirit to unite & love

Monique


Acts 21:20
When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.
Acts 25:8
Then Paul made his defense: "I have done nothing wrong against the law of the Jews or against the temple or against Caesar."Acts 28:17
[ Paul Preaches at Rome Under Guard ] Three days later he called together the leaders of the Jews. When they had assembled, Paul said to them: "My brothers, although I have done nothing against our people or against the customs of our ancestors, I was arrested in Jerusalem and handed over to the Romans.
Romans 3:29
Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,
Romans 15:27
They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews' spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings.

Galatians 2:7
On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, just as Peter had been to the Jews.



And here is the most important passage concerning this post on Torah observance etc.

19Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law

I rest my case.
Merry Christmas - Happy New Year to all

Shalom Richard & Everybody.