Can we believe the Bible completely ?!

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Is the Glass half-full, or half-empty? In this case, it's Both. But in arguing whether Cain murdered brother Abel, there's no two ways about it.

1John3:12 "Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous". Confirming Genesis--adding detail.

Heb12:16 "Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright". Confirming Genesis--adding detail.

So you're looking for ways and arguments and POV which support 'unbelief' in the Bible, and I'm looking for those that agree. Naturally, we each try to avoid those subjects which don't help our cause, and those cases where our personal understanding or knowledge isn't the greatest (because everyone has a few anomalies in their education). The Law of the Debater, eh? Hopefully, in our case, it's keeping the cobwebs from forming on our numbskulls. Appreciate the banter, Richard, and thanks for this forum. You too, Culi, have at it!

Hey there Brother Bob!

Yes, our discussions are very helpful to keep "cobwebs from forming on our numbskulls" and to help clean out the cobwebs that are already there (not in small part from the "few anomalies" in our education, no doubt!). I really appreciate your contributions.

As for the fulness of a glass - it is a tautological truth that any glass half full is also half empty, and vice versa. That which a person chooses to focus on reveals a fact about their own psychological temperament, not a fact about the glass. This exemplifies how multiple contradictory subjective states of mind can cohere with a single objective reality. Perhaps there is some insight hidden here.

I do not agree that I am "looking for ways and arguments and POV which support 'unbelief' in the Bible." On the contrary, I am looking for the objective truth of the matter. I freely admit any evidence that supports the Bible. Can you freely admit the evidence that contradicts your beliefs? I hope so ... that's the only path to truth.

It is interesting that you think a quote from Genesis is "confirmation." How does that work? All it means to me is that someone quoted Genesis. I can quote Genesis, does that confirm anything? The book of Enoch quotes from Genesis ... and we all know what some folks think about that! Your hidden assumption is that the NT is authoritative, so when it quotes the OT it "confirms" it. But if you begin with the assumption that the Bible is authoritative, then you don't need any confirmation of anything because you began by assuming it was all true. It is often very difficult to get Christians to see that their fundamental beliefs are based upon circular reasoning - closed logical loops that don't connect with objectively verifiable reality. Circular reasoning is a logical fallacy so when Christians use it any rational skeptic is fully justified in rejecting what they say. Maybe we should form a coalition of rational Skeptics and Christians for the abolition of circular logic.

Great chatting, my friend,

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

We must understand that the Bible have been copied through many hundreds scribes and several hundred times and as a result mistakes are bound to occur. Therefore it is human mistakes and if it is human mistakes then humans should fixed it. Don't expect God to cross every t and dot every i. Besides scribal mistakes, we should also be aware that there could be deliberate or unintentional changes and misinterpretations of the scribes. This may also be caused by the different languages that these scribes have to translate and even add their own cultures and mythologies so as to give better understandings to their contemporary readers. As a result, there will be mistakes in the Bible and these mistakes are all minor and unimportant,...Azariah or Uzziah so what? Matthew missed 3 generations so what? What is important is the the main gist that will lead us to heaven is not corrupted such as the ten Commandments and the two main commandments of Jesus i.e. to love God with all your heart, soul and mind and to love your neighbor as yourself. As long as Jesus mentioned the OT scriptures, these are considered as uncorrupted scriptures.

The Bible is written purposefully and symbolically in many areas and accidentally with human errors. It is for human to figure out the symbolic meanings and fix the human errors so that a deeeeeper understanding of the Bible will ensue. Such deeper understandings will lead to the truth and a better insight of what is the purpose of our existence and God's plans. The more we know and understand about God, the more we will appreciates what he was doing and the more we can withstand the temptations of the evil one.

Such human errors and alterations not only occurs in the Bible also occurs in other religious books such as the Koran, Sutras etc. as well.

May God Bless us.

Hey there Cheow Wee,

Your post is very well written, and I am glad you admit that the Bible is not the inerrant and infallible Word of God. You have answered the title question of this thread in the negative. We cannot "believe the Bible completely." That is very helpful. I agree with you.

But there seems to be some logical flaws. You asserted that "As long as Jesus mentioned the OT scriptures, these are considered as uncorrupted scriptures." That seems illogical because if there was "deliberate or unintentional changes and misinterpretations" of any passages, then the same could be said of the quotes from Jesus. Or are you saying that God supernaturally protected only those passages and not the others? What basis would you have for that assumption? And if it were true, why didn't God "supernaturally protect" the whole Bible from corruption?

Also, I don't see any support for your assertion that the "mistakes are all minor and unimportant." The problem is that as soon as you admit any mistakes, the entire text becomes suspect. We are FORCED to evaluate each and every verse, to try to determine if it is true or not. We cannot merely assuming they are all true; there is no justification for that. And so the Bible becomes just like any other book written by humans and so it has lost all "authority" as the Word of God.

Perhaps the most confusing statement you made is that "it is human mistakes and if it is human mistakes then humans should fixed it. Don't expect God to cross every t and dot every i." This contains two logical implications that don't make any sense to me. First, if humans were to fix the Bible then it could not be trusted any more than any other human book. Second, it contains an implicit assumption that "parts" of the Bible are from God, and parts from man. How are we supposed to discern which is which? And why would we begin by assuming any of it is from God when in fact the entire Bible appears to be from the hands of fallible men?

I'm glad you mentioned the Scriptures from other cultures like the Koran and the Sutras because this exemplifies the real problem. Why don't you accept them as the Word of God like the Bible? You admit that all Scriptures have errors, what makes the Bible more authoritative than the others?

Great chatting!

Richard


gave no evidence supporting your assertion that the errors in the Bible are all "all minor and unimportant." And your assertion

[Richard Amiel McGough]

People die, some show up or are born. They come and go, in the Real World. And strange things happen--just google Robt. Ripley.. The Bible tells it from a real world ! And real truth about real people. But the Bible only gives you the details that GOD wants you to have!

John21:25 "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written". Amen

I understand that's what you believe. The question is if you have any reasons supporting your beliefs, or if you are just a "believer" without reason like Muslims, Mormons, etc.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hello Cheow

I will just say "Amen" to what you have written. A few errors and discrepancies do not alter the basic truth of God's word. Just as well we have two or more verses that corroborate doctrines and are witnesses to the truth. I would worry if we did not have more than one verse by which to judge. Knowing there are errors and discrepancies keeps us on our toes; it does not help us if complacency sets in.

These genealogies were discussed in another thread recently and as I remember, the missing three generations were coincident with the captivity of Judah in Babylon. Why is Jehoiakim missing from the list? I will have to keep looking for a reason for that one. I would be very worried if the lists had many differing names that could not be reconciled. It is as well we have the Books of Chronlcles as well as the Books of the Kings. It is a very confusing time in the history of Isreael with many kings coming and going and some were God-fearing and others were evil. There is much to learn about human nature from the history of Israel. God has recorded this history for our learning; even the horrific bits which cannot be denied, but can be understood in the context of God's nature and attributes and the culture of that time.

All the best,

David

Hi David,

Does this mean that you have answered the title question in the negative? It sounds like you have admitted that we cannot "believe the Bible completely."

Richard

[culi26]

As long as Jesus mentioned the OT scriptures, these are considered as uncorrupted scriptures.

Uncorrupted?? Think twice about this!!

The Bible is written purposefully and symbolically in many areas and accidentally with human errors. It is for human to figure out the symbolic meanings and fix the human errors so that a deeeeeper understanding of the Bible will ensue. Such deeper understandings will lead to the truth and a better insight of what is the purpose of our existence and God's plans. The more we know and understand about God, the more we will appreciates what he was doing and the more we can withstand the temptations of the evil one.

HUMAN ERRORS?! How is it possible that people under the inspiration made all this mistakes?!

Such human errors and alterations not only occurs in the Bible also occurs in other religious books such as the Koran, Sutras etc. as well.

Name some of them !



May God Bless us. [/QUOTE]

[culi26]

I'm very curious what you mean when you say "Word of God." Where is this "Word of God" if not in the Bible? And if the Bible is errant, then how can we trust it when it reports what God said? Therefore, I really don't have a clue what you are referring to when you speak of the "Word of God." But I'd like to know if you'd be so kind as to share!

The Quran


culi26

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The Quran


culi26

I find it curious that you could think that the Quran is without error. It contains a lot of material that is very similar, if not identical, to what we find in the Bible. And the Quran states that Allah gave the Torah to Israel and the Gospels to Jesus. So you must believe that those books have been corrupted. But the evidence does not support that conclusion.

It seems logically inconsistent to believe that Allah gave three revelations - the Torah, the Gospel, and the Quran - and then let the first two be totally corrupted but kept the Quran absolutely pure. That makes no sense to me at all. And besides, it is pure assertion that directly contradicts the historical facts concerning those books.

And there is a much bigger problem with the idea that the Quran is the perfect word of God. When I read it, I can see that it has many confused and false ideas in it. For example:

• O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. [Surah 4:171]
  
• They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! [Surah 5:72-73]
  
• And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. [Surah 5:116]

There are a number of problems in these verses. First, the doctrine of the Trinity explicitly states that God is one. It never says that God is "one of three." That is a fundamental misunderstanding of the doctrine. It doesn't matter if the Trinity is true or not. The problem remains. The Quran contains an erroneous understanding of the doctrine. And this error is repeated a lot, as when Allah said "Say not 'Trinity' ... for Allah is one Allah." Therefore, the Quran cannot be the perfect Word of God.

And there is another big problem. Christians have never taught that the Trinity consists of God, Jesus, and Mary. So what is Surah 5:72-73 and Surah 5:116 talking about? It seems very clear that they are saying that the Trinity consists of God, Jesus, and Mary. This is because Allah says "They had both to eat their (daily) food" to show that they, Jesus and Mary, do not form a Trinity with Allah.

And there are many other problems in the Quran. When I read it, I get the impression it is a jumbled mish-mash of poorly understood Bible stories, so it inherits all the problems of the Bible and then adds confusion on top of them all.

I'm really glad you are here to discuss these things.

Salam aleikum.

Richard

[CWH]

[QUOTE]

Uncorrupted?? Think twice about this!!

Jesus received His teachings and thoughts directly from God the Father and the Holy Spirit and therefore when He referenced to the OT passages, such passages are considered as uncorrupted and authentic. He even revealed many things and errors in the passages that we did not even know such as the letter of divorce from Moses which originally this was not so, the error about marriages in heaven for angels do not marry etc.

HUMAN ERRORS?! How is it possible that people under the inspiration made all this mistakes?!

How is it possible that every scribe by the hundreds who copied the scriptures were inspired? There were obviously also people with evil intent or without who deliberately altered some of the passages in the Bible.

Name some of them !

RAM have already done so, thanks to him. . I would like to add that there are about 150 Islamic sects currently today and that speaks of the division and disagreements in the interpretations and concepts of the Koran. This goes the same with Christianity, Buddhism etc.

May God Bless us.

[CWH]

[QUOTE]

Hey there Cheow Wee,

Your post is very well written, and I am glad you admit that the Bible is not the inerrant and infallible Word of God. You have answered the title question of this thread in the negative. We cannot "believe the Bible completely." That is very helpful. I agree with you.

Thanks for your positive comment although it comes with a bit of sarcastism. Let me clarify, I have never said that the Bible is without errors but even that it is still the inerrant and infallible Word of God as the main and important gists are not corrupted such as the Ten commandments etc.

But there seems to be some logical flaws. You asserted that "As long as Jesus mentioned the OT scriptures, these are considered as uncorrupted scriptures." That seems illogical because if there was "deliberate or unintentional changes and misinterpretations" of any passages, then the same could be said of the quotes from Jesus. Or are you saying that God supernaturally protected only those passages and not the others? What basis would you have for that assumption? And if it were true, why didn't God "supernaturally protect" the whole Bible from corruption?

Jesus obtained His teachings and inspirations from God the Father and the Holy Spirits and as such when He referenced to the OT passages, such passages are considered as uncorrupted and authentic. He even reveal several passages and knowledge in which we did not know such as giving the letter of divorce which was originally not so, the marriages in heaven for angels do not marry etc.
Through the ages till today, there will be alterations made by human scribes and also misinterpretations by humans, are you saying that God should made every editions for the alterations and mistakes? Are that done in other religious bookssuch as the Koran and Sutras as well? No. If someone made a mistake, is it fair that we are supposed to rectify it on his behalf? Do you want to tell your students every answers or would you rather that you let your students be diligent to do some research on their own so that they will learn better and gain further insights into the subjects taught?

Also, I don't see any support for your assertion that the "mistakes are all minor and unimportant." The problem is that as soon as you admit any mistakes, the entire text becomes suspect. We are FORCED to evaluate each and every verse, to try to determine if it is true or not. We cannot merely assuming they are all true; there is no justification for that. And so the Bible becomes just like any other book written by humans and so it has lost all "authority" as the Word of God.

The words of God are there for you to believe but there are important words of God that if you believe will lead you to the gates of heaven such as to Love God with all your heart, soul and might and to Love your neighbor as yourself, there rest are immaterial but good to know which will provide knowledge of how to achieve these two commandments. You are expected to dive deeply into the meanings and understand what was taught if you really love God with all your heart, soul and might and to love your neighbor as yourself. If you sincerely love someone, you would do everything to know and understand that person isn't it?

Perhaps the most confusing statement you made is that "it is human mistakes and if it is human mistakes then humans should fixed it. Don't expect God to cross every t and dot every i." This contains two logical implications that don't make any sense to me. First, if humans were to fix the Bible then it could not be trusted any more than any other human book. Second, it contains an implicit assumption that "parts" of the Bible are from God, and parts from man. How are we supposed to discern which is which? And why would we begin by assuming any of it is from God when in fact the entire Bible appears to be from the hands of fallible men?

If an author made some mistakes in his book, he is responsible to make an edition for the amendments. But if the mistake is deliberately or unintentionally made by the publishers or the readers, who should be responsible to make the amendments to the book? Who is held responsible if the readers make their own interpretations and misinterpret or abuse the intent of your book? How could the author ensure that future generations, thousands of years later will not misprint, misinterpret or abuse the intent of your book?....continue to edict and make amendments for thousands of years to come? It all depends on how the readers study diligently and understand clearly the intent of your book with no evil intention to distort or abuse it.

I'm glad you mentioned the Scriptures from other cultures like the Koran and the Sutras because this exemplifies the real problem. Why don't you accept them as the Word of God like the Bible? You admit that all Scriptures have errors, what makes the Bible more authoritative than the others?

It doesn't matter which religion you believe for they taught the main gists (such as to do good and not evil etc.) which will lead you to the gates of heaven which is to Love God with all your heart, soul and might and to Love your neighbor as yourself. The rest are rather immaterial which provides knowledge and instructions of how we can do these two commandments. We are not supposed to judge other people for Grace belongs to God and there can only be one Creator God. Do not judge or You will be judged. We are judged according to what good we have done in our lives...Revelation 20. Religions and Religious books are like different theories and instruction manuals, each with their own set of rules and concepts but ultimately it will lead to one true conclusion.

May God not judge us.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Thanks for your positive comment although it comes with a bit of sarcastism.

Hey there Cheow,

Given some of our past conversations, I can understand why you would be sensitive to sarcasm but I can assure you quite sincerely that none was intended.

Let me clarify, I have never said that the Bible is without errors but even that it is still the inerrant and infallible Word of God as the main and important gists are not corrupted such as the Ten commandments etc.

I think you will need to refine your statement a bit. It is a direct contradiction to assert that the Bible contains errors and is inerrant and infallible. As it stands, you statement is logically incoherent and therefore literally meaningless.

And I don't understand why you think the Ten Commandments are important. They were given to Israel and no one else. That's the whole point of the 4th Commandment. It was given as a sign of the unique relationship between God and Israel:

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Note also that violation of the 4th Commandment incured the death penality. That is not a good thing. This is why Paul said that law could not give life, and why it had to be abolished.

The law was never given to Gentiles:

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

You have never given any reason to think that the Ten Commandments were specially protected from error. Your assertion that some parts of the Bible are erroneous while other parts are inerrant and infallible is logically incoherent.

Jesus obtained His teachings and inspirations from God the Father and the Holy Spirits and as such when He referenced to the OT passages, such passages are considered as uncorrupted and authentic. He even reveal several passages and knowledge in which we did not know such as giving the letter of divorce which was originally not so, the marriages in heaven for angels do not marry etc.

How do you know that "Jesus obtained His teachings and inspirations from God the Father and the Holy Spirit"? You don't. You think you know that only because the Bible tells you so. But you admit the Bible contains some errors, so you don't know if that teaching is also erroneous or not.

Through the ages till today, there will be alterations made by human scribes and also misinterpretations by humans, are you saying that God should made every editions for the alterations and mistakes? Are that done in other religious bookssuch as the Koran and Sutras as well? No. If someone made a mistake, is it fair that we are supposed to rectify it on his behalf? Do you want to tell your students every answers or would you rather that you let your students be diligent to do some research on their own so that they will learn better and gain further insights into the subjects taught?

If someone wants to assert that the Bible is inerrant, then the Bible must be without error. So yes, God would have to protect the Bible from error, or it will contain error. And if it contains error, then it is not inerrant. Do I really need to explain something this obvious to you?

And yes, it would have to be done for the Koran if the Koran were inerrant. Don't you understand simple logic? If something contains errors, it is not inerrant. If something is inerrant, it does not contain errors.

Your analogy to students doing their own research is absurd in this context. We are talking about whether or not the Bible contains errors.

The words of God are there for you to believe but there are important words of God that if you believe will lead you to the gates of heaven such as to Love God with all your heart, soul and might and to Love your neighbor as yourself, there rest are immaterial but good to know which will provide knowledge of how to achieve these two commandments. You are expected to dive deeply into the meanings and understand what was taught if you really love God with all your heart, soul and might and to love your neighbor as yourself. If you sincerely love someone, you would do everything to know and understand that person isn't it?

Atheists, Buddhists, Christians, Muslims, and everyone has love. Therefore there is no need for God or the Bible. Those ideas generate more hate than love anyway.

If an author made some mistakes in his book, he is responsible to make an edition for the amendments. But if the mistake is deliberately or unintentionally made by the publishers or the readers, who should be responsible to make the amendments to the book? Who is held responsible if the readers make their own interpretations and misinterpret or abuse the intent of your book? How could the author ensure that future generations, thousands of years later will not misprint, misinterpret or abuse the intent of your book?....continue to edict and make amendments for thousands of years to come? It all depends on how the readers study diligently and understand clearly the intent of your book with no evil intention to distort or abuse it.

If the Bible is full of errors it can't be "fixed" by fallible people. It is supposed to be "God's Word." Who has the authority to "fix" it? Your suggestions simply make no sense at all to me.

It doesn't matter which religion you believe for they taught the main gists (such as to do good and not evil etc.) which will lead you to the gates of heaven which is to Love God with all your heart, soul and might and to Love your neighbor as yourself.

Excellent. We agree. It doesn't matter which religion you believe. It doesn't matter if you reject all religion. It's all the same. Thank you.