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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    The Bible points to God as the source of creation and life. Now, individuals can discount the Bible as a science book, one can even discount the Old Testament as a literal account of history, as set forth by Luke1978, but you have no power nor authority to dismiss it as the Word of God. You only demonstrate arrogance in trampling it underfoot because you disagree with its content.
    Good morning John, my friend!

    I really appreciate your criticism, but when I take it to heart I have trouble understanding what exactly I have done that is "arrogant." As far as I know, I have given good reasons for the things I say. Sure, I could be wrong, but where is the "arrogance"? You will need to be a little more specific in your criticism so I can correct my behavior.

    Your assertion that I am "arrogant" for rejecting the proposition that the Bible is the "Word of God" doesn't make sense to me. You reject all other religious Scriptures as "not the Word of God." So what is the difference between you and me? And when I think about it, it seems you have things backwards. If anything is "arrogant" is it not your assertion that one particular religious book is the "Word of God" to the exclusion of all others? Who gave you the "power and authority" to declare the Bible is the Word of God? You are not God, and you do not know if your assertion is true. And if you are wrong and the moral abominations attributed to God are libelous falsehoods then you are guilty of promoting gross falsehoods against God and misleading people about his true nature.

    If anything is arrogant, it seems to be the claim that the Bible is the "Word of God" when you know no such thing. What if you are wrong? Doesn't that matter to you at all? Why do you think you have the power and authority to declare that the Bible accurately describes God? And who gave you the authority to declare that all the other Scriptures of all the other religions are false? Does this not make you "arrogant" by your own definition since you (a mere man) are setting yourself up as a judge over all religious truth?

    I think my position is much more humble. I simple admit that no one knows if any book is the "Word of God."

    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    One thing that rings loud and clear as I have been exposed to your reasoning, is your complete disregard for the interpretations and understandings of others.
    Again, I don't know what you are talking about so I have no way to change my behavior for the better. Your charge is just a broad generality with no content. I very much appreciate your criticism, but it would help if you gave me something to actually work with so I can change my "arrogant" ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    There have been millions of lives which have come and gone, who have devoted their life to serving Christ through self sacrifice to make the world a better place. Those people have no idea what you are talking about. They do not understand the things you do because of the education gap, but they do understand the teachings of Scripture, and it has transformed their lives from meaningless to meaningful.
    I guess I'm rather like those people since I have no idea what you are talking about. I have never said anything against anyone doing good in the world in the name of Christ. We are not talking about things like that. We are talking about the truth or falsehood about things like evolution and the Bible. But if you want to chastise someone for misleading the Christians who might be uneducated and simple-minded, you would do well to start with the professional creationists who regularly lie to them about the science of evolution. They are guilty of grossly deceiving simple-minded Christians when they teach that "evolution is bullshit with no scientific support of any kind." And worse, they are using the uneducated Christians to make money and spread their lies. They are simultaneously fleecing the sheep and corrupting their minds! That seems pretty wicked to me ... and they do it all in the name of defending the Bible as the "Word of God."

    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    And it's not true that "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth".
    Since verification is your mantra, perhaps you could share your evidence of this "fact" with the rest of us.
    I already have. There is a large body of evidence that this universe we live in began about 13.75 billion years ago and that the earth was formed about 9 billion years later. A gap of 9 billion years between those two events means that they did not happen together "in the beginning." I have no problem with Genesis 1 as a poetic statement about how God is creator. The only problem that arises is when folks try to say that Genesis 1 trumps scientific facts. I'm talking about folks who think it is a literal historical narrative that implies a young earth and contradicts evolution.

    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    The "heavens" (space) came into existence about 13.75 billions years ago, whereas the earth wasn't formed until about 9 billion years later. They were not created together "in the beginning."
    Perhaps, Perhaps not. If God chose to initiate creation and life via the "Big Bang", how can you conclude that all of the elements necessary to spawn the stars and planets were not present in that act?
    I never said that all those elements were not present in the big bang. As best we know, the elements began as mostly hydrogen and a little helium with almost no heavier elements. The heavier elements had to be cooked in the first generation of stars which then went nova and distributed them into the universe. Those elements then condensed into second generation stars and planets like earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    The origin of DNA and first cell is a true mystery. Merely asserting that "God did it" is no answer at all.
    The Bible tells me the Who and What of life. Who? God. What? Life.

    You see how simple it is Richard. This answer to the Who & What is a Biblical certainty. God has given us science and math as the keys to unlock the mysteries of the "How" and "When" of His creation. Don't try to hijack those keys from those who believe.
    Yes, those answers are a "Biblical certainty" just like Allah and Life are a "Quranic certainty." That doesn't mean either are true.

    The problem is that anyone could invent that kind of answer. It require no knowledge at all. It is mere assertion like saying that Brahman is Creator.

    I don't understand what you think I am trying to "hijack." All I have been doing is reasoning with you about the Bible and science.

    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    Your friend,

    John
    Thank you for taking the time and effort to "wound" me. Your comments are much better than an enemy's kisses.
    Proverbs 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.
    Always your friend,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  2. #42
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    [QUOTE=CWH;46853]

    The ability for humans to make new strains of germs will inevitably lead to creating new species of animals and plants just by tinkering with their DNAs. When that time comes, only will human realized the folly of the theory of Evolution and embrace Creationism. The theory of Evolution will become the greatest deceit in human history. The only theory of Evolution that is plausible to me is micro-evolution which I dubbed as a process of adaptation.


    Thanks to your posts as well, David. I enjoy them very much.


    May God Bless us.
    I have one simple question for you Cheow. How has the theory of Evolution harmed the progression of mankind's knowledge? It seems to me that the human quest for knowledge is what led Darwin to study how animals change over time, which then led others after him to discover the wonders of DNA and the genetic code, and on and on it goes.

    The wonderful thing about science is that if a theory is wrong it will be found out because their hypothesis's will fail. If Evolution is wrong then anything built upon that theory will fail,...and so far that has not happened!

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  3. #43
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    [QUOTE=Rose;46862]
    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post

    I have one simple question for you Cheow. How has the theory of Evolution harmed the progression of mankind's knowledge? It seems to me that the human quest for knowledge is what led Darwin to study how animals change over time, which then led others after him to discover the wonders of DNA and the genetic code, and on and on it goes.

    The wonderful thing about science is that if a theory is wrong it will be found out because their hypothesis's will fail. If Evolution is wrong then anything built upon that theory will fail,...and so far that has not happened!

    Rose
    The theory of Evolution will not harm the progression of man's knowledge. Did the theory of Phlogiston harmed mankind's knowledge on Chemistry? No, they will just need to revise their concept. Same as the theory of Evolution. Animals NEVER change over time, has anyone observed it personally?

    If Evolution is wrong then anything built upon that theory will fail,...and so far that has not happened!
    Same with Creationism and if is wrong then anything built upon that theory will fail,...and so far that has not happened! Scientists are not always correct, a good example is the theory of Phlogiston which was believed for 300 years before it was proven false and was replaced by the theory of Combustion. Likewise, the thoery of Evolution will ultimately fail and goes into the dustheap of human history as the greatest deceit in mankind.

    Thank God for His Creation.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  4. #44
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    Evolution is hopeless

    If Evolution is true, it does not give a person hope (of existing in the future). If God does not exist, the thought of God gives a person hope, and that has to be better than having no hope.

    God has given man proof of His existence by fore-telling events before they happened. Man is still searching for evidence to prove Evolution is true beyond all reasonable doubt.

    Once man starts to tinker with his "Evolution", he becomes a creator (having a form of godliness).

    I sugggest you take the advice of Paul to Timothy and put your trust in God who gives hope:
    2 Timothy 3:5 (Man) Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

    The Creator (God) gives a person hope. Whatever your understanding of that hope is, as the psalmist writes;
    (Psalm 16:9) Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.

    God put before Israel a choice and the same choice is yours today.
    (Deuteronomy 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

    None of us reading this message from God can say when we stand before Jesus at the time of judgment; "I never heard about God's offer".


    David

    (Jude 25) To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and for ever. Amen.
    Last edited by David M; 07-02-2012 at 03:10 AM.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    If Evolution is true, it does not give a person hope (of existing in the future). If God does not exist, the thought of God gives a person hope, and that has to be better than having no hope.

    God has given man proof of His existence by fore-telling events before they happened. Man is still searching for evidence to prove Evolution is true beyond all reasonable doubt.

    Once man starts to tinker with his "Evolution", he becomes a creator (having a form of godliness).

    I sugggest you take the advice of Paul to Timothy and put your trust in God who gives hope:
    2 Timothy 3:5 (Man) Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

    The Creator (God) gives a person hope. Whatever your understanding of that hope is, as the psalmist writes;
    (Psalm 16:9) Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.

    God put before Israel a choice and the same choice is yours today.
    (Deuteronomy 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


    None of us reading this message from God can say when we stand before Jesus at the time of judgment; "I never heard about God's offer".


    David

    (Jude 25) To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and for ever. Amen.
    I choose blessing and life with my father in heaven forever and ever. May this be recorded in the book of life.

  6. #46
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    South Korean Schools teaching Creationism

    South Korean schools are now teaching Creationism, hopefully soon the US will follows:

    http://www.christianpost.com/news/so...xtbooks-76266/

    SCIENCE
    South Korean Textbooks Reject Evolution
    Opponents of evolution have won a big victory in South Korea's schools
    By CATHERINE TRAYWICK | June 12, 2012 |
    77
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    23

    JULIE DELTON
    Evolution
    In South Korea, a growing antievolution movement has successfully laid claim to young students’ minds — or, at least, their textbooks. The country’s Ministry of Education, Science and Technology announced last month that many South Korean textbook publishers will begin producing revised editions that will for the first time exclude discussions and examples of evolution. Biologists in Seoul are alarmed by the move, noting that scientists were not consulted by the ministry in this decision, reports the journal Nature.

    The controversy should be familiar to Americans, who in recent years have watched several states spar over the constitutionality of teaching alternative theories in public schools. But while Americans have seen the theory of intelligent design make inroads against Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution, South Korea’s latest changes are unabashedly rooted in the Book of Genesis.

    (MORE: The Evolution Wars)

    For instance, the country’s leading science institute, the Korea Advanced Institute of Science and Technology, has a creationism display on its campus. And in 2008, the Korea Association of Creation Research (KACR) sponsored a very successful exhibition on creationism at Seoul Land, a popular amusement park. KACR claims that the exhibition attracted more than 116,000 visitors in just a few months and that the park is now considering extending the program for up to a year.

    About a third of South Koreans surveyed in 2009 for a documentary titled The Era of God and Darwin said they did not believe in evolution, a figure consistent with the global average, according to an Ipsos/Reuters poll. Yet efforts to institutionalize “creation science” seem to be more successful in South Korea than in the U.S., which maintains a higher proportion of evolutionary skeptics.

    Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Indonesia, South Africa and Brazil all outrank South Korea in percentage of the population that believes in creationism, according to the Ipsos/Reuters poll. Conversely, Sweden, Germany, China, Belgium and Japan boast the highest proportion of evolutionists.

    God Bless Creationism.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    If Evolution is true, it does not give a person hope (of existing in the future). If God does not exist, the thought of God gives a person hope, and that has to be better than having no hope.

    God has given man proof of His existence by fore-telling events before they happened. Man is still searching for evidence to prove Evolution is true beyond all reasonable doubt.
    Good morning David,

    Whether or not people have hope has nothing to do with Evolution being true. The validity of facts does not hinge on whether or not it gives someone hope. Facts are facts, they are supported by the evidence, not hope.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Once man starts to tinker with his "Evolution", he becomes a creator (having a form of godliness).
    The fact that man can "tinker" with Evolution proves it's validity!

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I sugggest you take the advice of Paul to Timothy and put your trust in God who gives hope:
    2 Timothy 3:5 (Man) Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

    The Creator (God) gives a person hope. Whatever your understanding of that hope is, as the psalmist writes;
    (Psalm 16:9) Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.

    God put before Israel a choice and the same choice is yours today.
    (Deuteronomy 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

    None of us reading this message from God can say when we stand before Jesus at the time of judgment; "I never heard about God's offer".


    David

    (Jude 25) To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and for ever. Amen.
    It is only wise to put your trust in things that are proven to be true, otherwise your hope is built on sand that washes out from under you when it is put to the test. Saying that God is trustworthy and faithful means nothing, until it is shown to be true.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post

    The theory of Evolution will not harm the progression of man's knowledge. Did the theory of Phlogiston harmed mankind's knowledge on Chemistry? No, they will just need to revise their concept. Same as the theory of Evolution. Animals NEVER change over time, has anyone observed it personally?

    If Evolution is wrong then anything built upon that theory will fail,...and so far that has not happened!
    Same with Creationism and if is wrong then anything built upon that theory will fail,...and so far that has not happened! Scientists are not always correct, a good example is the theory of Phlogiston which was believed for 300 years before it was proven false and was replaced by the theory of Combustion. Likewise, the thoery of Evolution will ultimately fail and goes into the dustheap of human history as the greatest deceit in mankind.

    Thank God for His Creation.
    Hi Cheow,
    I can't think of one theory that has been built on the foundation of Creationism. Would you be so kind as to enlighten me in that area... There have been many theories built on the foundation of Evolution and they are still standing.

    Waiting your reply,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    If Evolution is true, it does not give a person hope (of existing in the future).
    Good morning David,

    Your comment is illogical. The truth or falsehood of an hypothesis has nothing to do with whether or not it gives "hope."

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    If God does not exist, the thought of God gives a person hope, and that has to be better than having no hope.
    This too is illogical. "If God does not exist" then hoping in God is a delusion. Delusion is never better than reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    God has given man proof of His existence by fore-telling events before they happened. Man is still searching for evidence to prove Evolution is true beyond all reasonable doubt.
    This has never been established. It would be best for you to refrain from making unsubstantiated claims, don't you think? If you want to present the best evidence for fulfilled prophecies, please do so!

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Once man starts to tinker with his "Evolution", he becomes a creator (having a form of godliness).
    That is illogical. The word "creator" refers to the being that created this universe. It has nothing to do with anyone who merely "tinkers" with parts of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I sugggest you take the advice of Paul to Timothy and put your trust in God who gives hope:
    2 Timothy 3:5 (Man) Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
    I'd do that in a heart-beat if you would give me any evidence that there is such a god.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    The Creator (God) gives a person hope. Whatever your understanding of that hope is, as the psalmist writes;
    (Psalm 16:9) Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.

    God put before Israel a choice and the same choice is yours today.
    (Deuteronomy 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

    None of us reading this message from God can say when we stand before Jesus at the time of judgment; "I never heard about God's offer".
    Correct. And neither can you say that you have not heard about Allah, the Trinity, Judaism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Hinduism, etc., etc., etc. ... so when you die, you will finally find out if you made the right choice during your brief time on earth as a fallible human with no way to establish the truth of such matters.

    That's the one thing that struck me as the most irrational, cruel, and perverse about the Gospel. There is no way to know if you made the right choice until it's too late! And if you made the wrong choice you will be tormented forever in the flames of hell. How twisted is that? Of course, David, I know you don't believe in hell ... but what if you are wrong?

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi Cheow,
    I can't think of one theory that has been built on the foundation of Creationism. Would you be so kind as to enlighten me in that area... There have been many theories built on the foundation of Evolution and they are still standing.

    Waiting your reply,
    Rose
    Hi Rose,

    I hate to burst your bubble but your statement does not hold up, in those fields science has disputed many of Evolution's theories. Here are some of them:

    Scientific facts disputing Evolution.

    1. It is an established scientific fact that life cannot originate from non-living matter (the Law of Biogenesis).

    2. The chemical evolution of life is impossible. No scientist has ever advanced a testable procedure by which this could occur. The Miller-Urey experiment, still shown in many current textbooks, has been proven to be irrelevant.

    3. Mendel's Laws of Genetics limit the variations in a species. Different combinations of genes are formed, but not different new genes. Breeding experiments and common observations have also confirmed that genetic boundaries exist.

    4. Genetic mutations have never made a creature more viable than its ancestors. Mutations are almost always harmful, and many are lethal. More than 90 years of fruit fly experiments, involving 3,000 successive generations, give absolutely no basis for believing that any natural or artificial process can cause an increase in complexity and viability. "A mutation is a random change of a highly organized, reasonably smoothly functioning living body. A random change in the highly integrated system of chemical processes which constitute life is almost certain to impair it.

    5. Mutations cannot produce complex organs such as the eye, the ear, or the brain, much less the intricacy of design found in microbiological organisms. These organs are not even imaginable, much less viable in a partially developed state. The principle of "irreducible complexity" demonstrates that a wide range of component parts and technologies must be simultaneously existent for these organs to function. In a partially developed state, they would become a liability to an organism, not an advantage. Moreover, most complex organs have interdependent relationships with other complex organs which enable proper functioning. These relationships must also be simultaneously existent.

    6. All living species are fully developed, and their organs are fully developed. There are no living lizards with scale-feathers, leg-wings, or 3-chambered hearts. If evolutionary processes were the norm, these intermediate forms of development should be observable throughout nature. Instead, they are non-existent. All living creatures are divided into distinct types. There should be a myriad of transitional, un-classifiable creatures if evolution was the norm. There is no direct evidence that any major group of animals or plants arose from any other major group. The fossil record contains no transitional forms of animals, only extinct forms. The fossil record has been studied so thoroughly that it is safe to conclude that the alleged "gaps" or "missing links" will never be found.

    7. Codes and programs (DNA and the genetic code) are produced only by intelligence. No natural process (non-intelligence-ie. matter) has ever been observed to produce a program.

    8. The so-called "evolutionary tree" has no trunk. In the earliest part of the fossil record (generally the Cambrian sedimentary layer), life appears suddenly, complex, diversified and fully developed.

    9. It is impossible to conceive of an evolutionary process that results in sexual reproduction. Complementary male and female systems must have completely and independently evolved at each stage at the exact same time and place. The millions of mechanical and chemical processes, as well as behavioral patterns and physical characteristics, would all need to be compatible. Even leading evolutionists admit they cannot explain this.

    God bless---Twospirits
    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

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