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  1. #1
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    Daniel's 10 + 1 horns = 11

    I thought I'd begin a thread, among the already numerous threads, to discuss Daniel's 4rth Beast Kingdom possessing 10 horns, plus one little horn which had three subdued prior to it. Here then is the passage:

    Daniel 7
    19 Then I enquired carefully concerning the fourth beast; for it differed from every other beast, exceeding dreadful: its teeth were of iron, and its claws of brass, devouring, and utterly breaking to pieces, and it trampled the remainder with its feet: 20 and concerning its ten horns that were in its head, and the other that came up, and rooted up some of the former, which had eyes, and a mouth speaking great things, and his look was bolder than the rest. 21 I beheld, and that horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 until the Ancient of days came, and he gave judgment to the saints of the Most High; and the time came on, and the saints possessed the kingdom. 23 And he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom on the earth, which shall excel all other kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and trample and destroy it. 24 And his ten horns are ten kings that shall arise: and after them shall arise another, who shall exceed all the former ones in wickedness and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change times and law: and power shall be given into his hand for a time and times and half a time. 26 And the judgment has sat, and they shall remove his dominion to abolish it, and to destroy it utterly. 27 And the kingdom and the power and the greatness of the kings that are under the whole heaven were given to the saints of the Most High; and his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all powers shall serve and obey him.
    The 4rth Beast mentioned here is clearly the Roman Empire. It's iron-like teeth and brute strength is a clear and perfect representation of the Roman Empire. No kingdom prior to them possessed as much power and strength as them. Therefore, we know without a doubt that the 4rth Beast is Rome.

    But what about the horns? This Beast is shown to have 10 horns. But something happens to the horns of this beast. An 11th horn sprouts up, though physically little, yet is an intelligent observer (Eyes like a man) and speaks great words as if he is arrogant. Actually, I doubt whether there were any Emperors which did not possess an arrogant attitude and mouth. Continuing, the 11th horn is also given power to overcome the saints. But after the judgment of Christ is set, the saints were given the Kingdom. It's my opinion that the Saints represented both Jews and Christian Jews. [I'll get to that at the end]. The last indicator of this 11th horn is three were over-powered prior to his succession. So with these clews, are we able to narrow down the identity of this horn?

    Here is a list of the horns in question. Keeping this in mind, this is in a Jewish perspective, for it was Daniel who had the vision, and the vision was applicable to the Jews. Therefore, we shall use the Jewish listing of Emperors which begins with Julius Caesar.

    1. Julius Caesar, 49-44 BC
    2. Triumverate: Marc Anthony/Octavian (Augustus)/Lepidus 44-31 BC
    3. Augustus, 31 BC-14 AD [First official Roman Emperor according to Gentiles]
    4. Tiberius, 14-37
    5. Caligula, 37-41
    6. Claudius, 41-54
    7. Nero, 54-68
    8. Galba, 68-69 [subdued]
    9. Otho, 69 [subdued]
    10. Vitellius, 69 [subdued]
    11. Vespasian, 69-79 11th HORN [or prince Titus]
    12. Titus, 79-81
    13. Domitian, 81-96


    In the year 49 BC, Julius Caesar assumed the title of dictator of Rome. In 44 BC, he assumed the title of dictator perpetuus, or dictator for life. He was assassinated before he could enjoy it for long, but he laid the foundation for what would become a dynasty.

    The triple ruling between Marc Anthony, Octavian (Augustus) and Lepidus would exist until Augustus became the first official Emperor according to Roman records. So I believe they are retained. Besides, if the Jews counted Julius as the first Emperor (And they did), then we may as well count the triple ruling as well.

    Now, according to history, after the death of Nero, Rome fell into a civil war and three Generals tried to assume power over the throne. All three were over-powered within a single year. These were Galba, Otho, and Vitelius. It just so happens that the 11th horn, Vespasian, became Emperor. And remember the indicators of the 11th horn?

    1. Eyes like a man - represents a man with vision and intelligence.
    2. Spoke great words - some believe this to me harsh or rash words, but I believe this means arrogant and not demonic as some suppose. Furthermore, I doubt there was an Emperor which DIDN'T speak great arrogant words, even against the most High. King Neb did the same thing, assuming his kingdom was by his might and power, and not by God. I believe the same thing applied to Vespasian, who felt his power was due to his mighty military and intelligence, especially after succeeding the throne.
    3. Overcoming the Saints - Who was it that had victory over the Jews? Vespasian, although you could argue that his son Titus was the one responsible. Ironically, Titus also fits the picture just as well, and would even explain why the 11th horn was shown to be little, thereby indicating that this horn was little because it represented a prince or future ruler. And in all this, it was they who over-powered the saints, to include even Jewish Christians. Even though Jews and Jews of Christ struggled against each other, the Roman Empire made no distinction during that time. ANYONE, whether Jewish Christian or Jew of the flesh, was considered a Jew and they were nailed to the cross. However, in this case, I believe Daniel is told that the Jews were defeated in judgment, and that saints of the most High (who survived) possessed the Kingdom.

    In conclusion, Vespasian (or even Titus) represented Daniel's 11th horn. These were characterized as intelligent, arrogant against God as though they achieved power through their own measure, were a witness to the over-powering of three prior kings within a single year, and finally were responsible for the deaths of the false Jews and the awarding of the Kingdom to the Christians. And this concluded Daniel's 10 + 1 horns.

    Joe
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 11-27-2007 at 04:43 PM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    I thought I'd begin a thread, among the already numerous threads, to discuss Daniel's 4rth Beast Kingdom possessing 10 horns, plus one little horn which had three subdued prior to it. Here then is the passage:



    The 4rth Beast mentioned here is clearly the Roman Empire. It's iron-like teeth and brute strength is a clear and perfect representation of the Roman Empire. No kingdom prior to them possessed as much power and strength as them. Therefore, we know without a doubt that the 4rth Beast is Rome.

    But what about the horns? This Beast is shown to have 10 horns. But something happens to the horns of this beast. An 11th horn sprouts up, though physically little, yet is an intelligent observer (Eyes like a man) and speaks great words as if he is arrogant. Actually, I doubt whether there were any Emperors which did not possess an arrogant attitude and mouth. Continuing, the 11th horn is also given power to overcome the saints. But after the judgment of Christ is set, the saints were given the Kingdom. It's my opinion that the Saints represented both Jews and Christian Jews. [I'll get to that at the end]. The last indicator of this 11th horn is three were over-powered prior to his succession. So with these clews, are we able to narrow down the identity of this horn?

    Here is a list of the horns in question. Keeping this in mind, this is in a Jewish perspective, for it was Daniel who had the vision, and the vision was applicable to the Jews. Therefore, we shall use the Jewish listing of Emperors which begins with Julius Caesar.

    1. Julius Caesar, 49-44 BC
    2. Triumverate: Marc Anthony/Octavian (Augustus)/Lepidus 44-31 BC
    3. Augustus, 31 BC-14 AD [First official Roman Emperor according to Gentiles]
    4. Tiberius, 14-37
    5. Caligula, 37-41
    6. Claudius, 41-54
    7. Nero, 54-68
    8. Galba, 68-69 [subdued]
    9. Otho, 69 [subdued]
    10. Vitellius, 69 [subdued]
    11. Vespasian, 69-79 11th HORN [or prince Titus]
    12. Titus, 79-81
    13. Domitian, 81-96


    In the year 49 BC, Julius Caesar assumed the title of dictator of Rome. In 44 BC, he assumed the title of dictator perpetuus, or dictator for life. He was assassinated before he could enjoy it for long, but he laid the foundation for what would become a dynasty.

    The triple ruling between Marc Anthony, Octavian (Augustus) and Lepidus would exist until Augustus became the first official Emperor according to Roman records. So I believe they are retained. Besides, if the Jews counted Julius as the first Emperor (And they did), then we may as well count the triple ruling as well.

    Now, according to history, after the death of Nero, Rome fell into a civil war and three Generals tried to assume power over the throne. All three were over-powered within a single year. These were Galba, Otho, and Vitelius. It just so happens that the 11th horn, Vespasian, became Emperor. And remember the indicators of the 11th horn?

    1. Eyes like a man - represents a man with vision and intelligence.
    2. Spoke great words - some believe this to me harsh or rash words, but I believe this means arrogant and not demonic as some suppose. Furthermore, I doubt there was an Emperor which DIDN'T speak great arrogant words, even against the most High. King Neb did the same thing, assuming his kingdom was by his might and power, and not by God. I believe the same thing applied to Vespasian, who felt his power was due to his mighty military and intelligence, especially after succeeding the throne.
    3. Overcoming the Saints - Who was it that had victory over the Jews? Vespasian, although you could argue that his son Titus was the one responsible. Ironically, Titus also fits the picture just as well, and would even explain why the 11th horn was shown to be little, thereby indicating that this horn was little because it represented a prince or future ruler. And in all this, it was they who over-powered the saints, to include even Jewish Christians. Even though Jews and Jews of Christ struggled against each other, the Roman Empire made no distinction during that time. ANYONE, whether Jewish Christian or Jew of the flesh, was considered a Jew and they were nailed to the cross. However, in this case, I believe Daniel is told that the Jews were defeated in judgment, and that saints of the most High (who survived) possessed the Kingdom.

    In conclusion, Vespasian (or even Titus) represented Daniel's 11th horn. These were characterized as intelligent, arrogant against God as though they achieved power through their own measure, were a witness to the over-powering of three prior kings within a single year, and finally were responsible for the deaths of the false Jews and the awarding of the Kingdom to the Christians. And this concluded Daniel's 10 + 1 horns.

    Joe
    Hi Joe,
    How does this tie in with Re:13?

    How did you determine Rome was not one of the 4 heads of the leopard beast ?

  3. #3
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    Hi Joe,
    How does this tie in with Re:13?

    How did you determine Rome was not one of the 4 heads of the leopard beast ?
    Revelation was written to the seven Churches of Asia, which were mostly Gentile Churches. The mindset IMO would have to be in accordance with foreign understanding of the Roman Empire. Who they considered the first Caesar was not the same as the Jews. Jews considered Julius Caesar as the first Emperor, but Rome itself never considered Julius to be Emperor. So from Daniel's perspective, Julius would be counted as the first King of the 4rth Beast (the first horn). But from John's perspective who was providing a picture of the Beast from a Gentile perspective, the image is different.

    Revelation 13 describes a Beast with seven heads....the heads represent the Emperors of the Roman Empire.
    Joe

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    Hi Joe,
    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Revelation was written to the seven Churches of Asia, which were mostly Gentile Churches. The mindset IMO would have to be in accordance with foreign understanding of the Roman Empire. Who they considered the first Caesar was not the same as the Jews. Jews considered Julius Caesar as the first Emperor, but Rome itself never considered Julius to be Emperor. So from Daniel's perspective, Julius would be counted as the first King of the 4rth Beast (the first horn). But from John's perspective who was providing a picture of the Beast from a Gentile perspective, the image is different.

    Revelation 13 describes a Beast with seven heads....the heads represent the Emperors of the Roman Empire.
    Joe
    Staying just with Daniel for a moment would you agree that Da:2:33-35, Da:2:40-44, Da:7:7, Da:7:7-9, Da:7-26, Da:8:23-25 and some , if not all, of Da:11?

    One of the reasons I want confirmation that they apply is that at the end of that kingdom is when Christ returns. That kingdom does not exist until that very time in that Christ is the reason that kingdom perishes. To be fair, when Rome cratered, say 300AD, Christ should have been the reason. The 4th beast/kingdom is supposed to have influence over the 'whole earth'. The RCC continued from where the armies stopped. Most of the world still functions on Roman traditions, style of government is not exempt. Rome could not be very diverse from the brass (starting with Alex) Now fallen angels and man are diverse, very diverse. The brass is also said to have a large dominion,
    Da:2:39: And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

    The very name RCC would say that influence has not evaporated.

    When the brass do this who is the "prince of the host"?
    Da:8:11: Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
    The next chapter calls Jesus a prince. Rome was certainly involved with Jesus.

    The latter time of their kingdom was when? If that was not Rome who was it and who besides the Apostles were the 'stars' etc?

    Of all the threads that are going on this is the one I will try and follow the most closely.

    I hope a comment or two about the other threads subjects will be tolerated, I assume we are all reading them anyways.

    Wayne

  5. #5
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    One of the reasons I want confirmation that they apply is that at the end of that kingdom is when Christ returns. That kingdom does not exist until that very time in that Christ is the reason that kingdom perishes. To be fair, when Rome cratered, say 300AD, Christ should have been the reason. The 4th beast/kingdom is supposed to have influence over the 'whole earth'. The RCC continued from where the armies stopped. Most of the world still functions on Roman traditions, style of government is not exempt. Rome could not be very diverse from the brass (starting with Alex) Now fallen angels and man are diverse, very diverse. The brass is also said to have a large dominion,
    Da:2:39: And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

    The very name RCC would say that influence has not evaporated.
    Christ does not return to destroy the Beasts...at least not from Daniel's perspective. Christ came and "set-up" a kingdom which shall over-take the Beast, and not the other way around. The Kingdom is the Church, and the Church is also part of Rome. In our day the RCC is looked upon as corrupt. HOWEVER, prior to the Protestant Reformation, what other Churches existed for the salvation of souls?

    1. Greek Orthodox Church (Asia Minor)
    2. Roman Catholic Church (Church of Rome and later the RCC in the 3rd century).

    Protestants didn't exist until the 14th century, more than a 1000 years after the originals. So to claim that the RCC is some how connected with the Beast is a Historicist approach, and is easily proven to be a fallacy. When John wrote the vision, he was told "The time is near...". But the RCC didn't exist until the 3rd century, 300 years after Revelation was written. Yet in Daniel's time frame (more than 500 years) we're told that the vision was to be sealed because it was for the appointed time of Daniel's end of his people. So if 500 years is distant, then 300 years shouldn't be all that much different.

    The Greek Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church were united in love and service for about a 1000 years. It wasn't until the 10th century, with the rise of the Papacy, did the Orthodox Church break away and thus became two Churches. The Greek Churches do not believe in the Papacy, and quite frankly, neither do I. However, I still believed that Pope John Paul was a Christian based on the fruits I've seen or heard of him bearing. For, "By their fruits you will know them....".

    Therefore, Christ set-up a Kingdom during the days of "these kings", which are the Caesars. And it was His Kingdom (the Church) that conquered the Beasts which you discuss. Rome and Greece were both pagan nations, serving gods that no longer exist except in Greek mythology and our World History books. Those kingdoms and their gods have long since vanished. This doesn't mean that other nations would not sprout up after the Church has been set-up, as some suppose. But out of every kingdom upon this earth, which has the highest dominion? The Church of Jesus Christ.

    The 4rth Beast is a composite of left-overs from the previous Kingdoms. The Medes and Persions, along with the Greeks, and even the Babylonians, all make up the 4rth Beast. Rome dominated all of those regions. But when Daniel is told, "After the Beast is killed, the rest of the beast was allotted a certain time to live...." This, IMO, represented the time frame of the Emperors after the destruction of Jerusalem, probably from Trajan on through to the 3rd century. These would be used to refine the Church...but that is my opinion.

    More later.

    Joe

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    Hi Joe,
    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Christ does not return to destroy the Beasts...at least not from Daniel's perspective. Christ came and "set-up" a kingdom which shall over-take the Beast, and not the other way around.
    Da:2:44: certainly refers to God setting up His kingdom at the end of the iron and clay. It also states that it will no be given to other people, that would include generations.

    Da:7:9: states Christ's return is the reason that last kingdom perishes.

    If the reference to time, times, and the dividing of time can mean 3 1/2 days then that could be the two witnesses of Re:11. their resurrection marks the end of the second woe. The third woe is Christ's SC.
    Da:7:26: But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

    Da:8:25: also says it is Christ that destroys that kingdom.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    The 4rth Beast is a composite of left-overs from the previous Kingdoms. The Medes and Persions, along with the Greeks, and even the Babylonians, all make up the 4rth Beast. Rome dominated all of those regions. But when Daniel is told, "After the Beast is killed, the rest of the beast was allotted a certain time to live...." This, IMO, represented the time frame of the Emperors after the destruction of Jerusalem, probably from Trajan on through to the 3rd century. These would be used to refine the Church...but that is my opinion.
    Re gives us a Beast that is tossed into the lake at His return, along with the False Prophet. Satan is not sent to the Lake at that time, he still has a 'little season' after a set period of time.

    Also, what becomes of the fowl and the beasts of the earth that are gathered at that time to feast on a lot of dead bodies. Do they contine to keep living after that feast is over?
    Ho:4:3: Therefore shall the land mourn, and every one that dwelleth therein shall languish, with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven; yea, the fishes of the sea also shall be taken away.

    Zep:1:2: I will utterly consume all things from off the land, saith the LORD.
    Zep:1:3: I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the LORD.

    I'll save any comments about the RCC for that other thread, it may not be anytime soon though.

    Wayne

  7. #7
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    Okay, lets look at Daniel 7

    9 ' I watched till thrones were put in place,
    And the Ancient of Days was seated;
    His garment was white as snow,
    And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
    His throne was a fiery flame,
    Its wheels a burning fire........

    .....The court was seated,
    And the books were opened.
    What is this picture showing you? It's showing that Christ has opened His judgments and that His throne (being in heaven) is pro-active among the people; both Jews and Gentiles.

    We are then shown in the following passage which nations are being judged:

    11 'I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
    13 ' I was watching in the night visions,
    And behold, One like the Son of Man,
    Coming with the clouds of heaven!
    He came to the Ancient of Days,
    And they brought Him near before Him.
    14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
    That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
    His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
    Which shall not pass away,
    And His kingdom the one
    Which shall not be destroyed
    The judgment was upon the Beast and his kingdom. We know that Christ was given dominion and authority over all heaven and earth in Matthew 29:

    Matthew 28
    18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.' Amen.
    Thus Christ was given full authority as King over all heaven and earth upon his ascension into heaven. However, the Kingdom was not yet built. That is why the Apostles were given the "Great Commission" to make disciples of all nations......teaching them to obey all of His commands.

    This parallels with the building of the Kingdom, some with wood, hay, or straw, while others with bricks and stones....taken figuratively of course. The Kingdom was ready and refined by 70AD, after 40 years of ministry, to the Jew first, and then to the Gentile. That is why the former Jerusalem, which had become filled with demonic spirits, was destroyed. The former wife was set aside, and the new wife (His Kingdom) was ready by 70AD. Subsequently, this led to Christ taking His Kingdom and sending her out against the nations.

    The 11th horn which spoke great words against the God of god's, was probably Vespasian or Titus. The Judgment (books were opened) was poured out upon Jerusalem and Daniel's vision of "the end" had been fulfilled. But the Beast which devoured Jerusalem would also be over-taken by the Kingdom of Christ. And this Kingdom was the Church. It was the Church that over-took Rome, and that without lifting ONE SINGLE WEAPON.

    Isaiah 2
    4 He [the Messiah] shall judge between the nations,
    And rebuke many people;
    They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
    And their spears into pruning hooks;
    Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
    Neither shall they learn war anymore.
    When he says, "Nation shall not lift up sword against the nation, neither shall they learn war anymore...." he's not saying that wars and fighting would end. He's saying that they would not be "Taught" to defend the kingdom, as was the case with Joshua, David, and Solomon. The former Jerusalem had to maintain a military of swords, spears, and shields. But the Israel of God does not war with swords fashioned with human hands. No, the Israel of God learns to war against nations with the love and faith of Jesus, using simple farm tools (Figurative) to plant seeds, sow good works of love, and tend to the field. Jesus used this analogy when He and His disciples were in Samaria after speaking with the Samaritan woman at the well.

    Futurists believe Isaiah was referring to a time when nations will no longer fight against each other. But that is a misunderstanding of the context; the context was about God's Kingdom, not the Kingdom's of the world. God's Kingdom does not war as the heathen do, for our weapons are in the power of faith.

    Ephesians 6
    10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;
    In conclusion, the judgment seat of Christ proved itself when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD. By this time, the Kingdom of Christ was ready to taken on the world, and the Gentile nations were over-taken by the Kingdom which was first established by the foundation of Jesus Christ, and the walls, stones, and pillars by the Apostles, through their weapons of salvation and faith. Jerusalem, which was once a land filled with war-mongers, became a land filled with love, hope, and peace. And the nations which destroyed Jerusalem were also over-taken. Instead of warring, they took up farming. And for the next several hundred centuries, the Kingdom of Christ would dominate the face of all the earth....at least until trouble started coming again, but that's for another thread.

    Joe
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 11-29-2007 at 12:31 PM.

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    Hi Joe,
    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Okay, lets look at Daniel 7
    What is this picture showing you? It's showing that Christ has opened His judgments and that His throne (being in heaven) is pro-active among the people; both Jews and Gentiles.
    How did you identify Him as Christ? I admit the physical description is in line with two descriptions in the NT, but this verse would seem to point to that throne as being the GWT , same as Re:4 & 5 ,
    Re:5:11: And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
    (In a recent post I think I included that as support for a throne on earth, I now retract that but still stand behind the others)

    The next verse goes like this, There is a spot in Re that speaks of such an event which is followed by Christ's return,
    Da:7:11: I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain,and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.


    We are then shown in the following which nations are being judged: Time-frame established by God brings Jesus before His throne and that would seem to be the day that nobody but the Father knows about when it actually is. Then the verse when He is actually walking on this earth again.
    Da:7:14:
    And there was given him dominion, (that dominion is the earth herself and all that is in it or has been in it)
    and glory, (in a good light He will have the righteous alone alive)
    and a kingdom, (a place for those people who are on the earth and are alive)
    that all people, (it could be more than the number that would be in the next line, like Israel)
    nations, (the Church)
    and languages, (two groups are said to speak a different language Re:14:3 )
    should serve him:
    his dominion is an everlasting dominion,(once given it does go for eternity, everybody there goes on living for eternity)
    which shall not pass away, (even though heaven and earth will, this kingdom will not M't:5:18, M't:24:35)
    and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. (is that an indication that it is spared a destruction that comes after)


    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    The judgment was upon the Beast and his kingdom. We know that Christ was given dominion and authority over all heaven and earth in Matthew 29:
    There is no Matt:29
    If you are talking about His last time arriving in Jerusalem before the cross, that happened some time after Lazarus was raised from the grave, literally. The people who lined the path Jesus took believed Him to be King because people were being brought out of the grave. I don't think they expected Lazarus to be the last one.
    A lot of prophecy was fulfilled at that time, not all the OT talks about was fulfilled in a literal way, prophecy about Him only became fulfilled when something actually happened. The prophecy given didn't happen in the next few decades, yet what Christ has left us (the NT) is to be fullfilled before the ink is dry.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Thus Christ was given full authority as King over all heaven and earth upon his ascension into heaven. However, the Kingdom was not yet built. That is why the Apostles were given the "Great Commission" to make disciples of all nations......teaching them to obey all of His commands.
    I assume the great commission would include writing a few things down, like the entire NT. I doubt everybody who had heard of Christ in 70AD had even read all the Gospels let alone what was written about after the time they cover. There isn't anything that says these letters were making the rounds quickly (ie pony express)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    This parallels with the building of the Kingdom, some with wood, hay, or straw, while others with bricks and stones....taken figuratively of course. The Kingdom was ready and refined by 70AD, after 40 years of ministry, to the Jew first, and then to the Gentile. That is why the former Jerusalem, which had become filled with demonic spirits, was destroyed. The former wife was set aside, and the new wife (His Kingdom) was ready by 70AD. Subsequently, this led to Christ taking His Kingdom and sending her out against the nations.
    The Church in the last 2,000 years hasn't done such a steller job. One of the first 'rules about spreading the Gospel' was that they should make it known (in a city) and accept hospitality in that city. If the word is rejected then they are to leave that city and dust their boots off. When God comes it will be a better thing for that city if they believed than if they had rejected the Gospel. I can't find a point in time from 70AD and on that that has ever happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    The 11th horn which spoke great words against the God of god's, was probably Vespasian or Titus. The Judgment (books were opened) was poured out upon Jerusalem and Daniel's vision of "the end" had been fulfilled. But the Beast which devoured Jerusalem would also be over-taken by the Kingdom of Christ. And this Kingdom was the Church. It was the Church that over-took Rome, and that without lifting ONE SINGLE WEAPON.
    If that kingdom never changes then no weapon should have been lifted even up to today. The crusades would have pretty much trashed that practice of no weapons. Doesn't seem to have passed yet either.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    When he says, "Nation shall not lift up sword against the nation, neither shall they learn war anymore...." he's not saying that wars and fighting would end. He's saying that they would not be "Taught" to defend the kingdom, as was the case with Joshua, David, and Solomon. The former Jerusalem had to maintain a military of swords, spears, and shields. But the Israel of God does not war with swords fashioned with human hands. No, the Israel of God learns to war against nations with the love and faith of Jesus, using simple farm tools (Figurative) to plant seeds, sow good works of love, and tend to the field. Jesus used this analogy when He and His disciples were in Samaria after speaking with the Samaritan woman at the well.
    Literal would make the previous thing sorrowful, and they are said to be doing just that, dieing in Vs;9
    M't:24:8: All these are the beginning of sorrows.
    M't:24:9: Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Futurists believe Isaiah was referring to a time when nations will no longer fight against each other. But that is a misunderstanding of the context; the context was about God's Kingdom, not the Kingdom's of the world. God's Kingdom does not war as the heathen do, for our weapons are in the power of faith.
    Are you saying this is already past?
    Isa:2:17: And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
    Isa:2:18: And the idols he shall utterly abolish.
    Isa:2:19: And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
    Isa:2:20: In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
    Isa:2:21: To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    In conclusion, the judgment seat of Christ proved itself when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD. By this time, the Kingdom of Christ was ready to taken on the world, and the Gentile nations were over-taken by the Kingdom which was first established by the foundation of Jesus Christ, and the walls, stones, and pillars by the Apostles, through their weapons of salvation and faith. Jerusalem, which was once a land filled with war-mongers, became a land filled with love, hope, and peace. And the nations which destroyed Jerusalem were also over-taken. Instead of warring, they took up farming. And for the next several hundred centuries, the Kingdom of Christ would dominate the face of all the earth....at least until trouble started coming again, but that's for another thread.
    A thread about the peace and serenity of the last 2,000 years, that should be interesting.

    PS I hope that covers what you covered in another thread Richard

  9. #9
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    How did you identify Him as Christ? I admit the physical description is in line with two descriptions in the NT, but this verse would seem to point to that throne as being the GWT , same as Re:4 & 5 ,
    Re:5:11: And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
    (In a recent post I think I included that as support for a throne on earth, I now retract that but still stand behind the others)

    The next verse goes like this, There is a spot in Re that speaks of such an event which is followed by Christ's return,
    Da:7:11: I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain,and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
    How do I define this as the Christ? Read again to what you posted and tell me its not obvious what Daniel is shown. He says, "The beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given over to burning flame..." The Beast is the Roman Empire....does the Roman Empire exist anymore? Not even close to it, and I fail to see how people assume that Rome exists. Sure there's the Roman Catholic Church, but they are not close enough to be called "The Beast". You can speculate that the Spanish Inquisition was based on a threat by the RCC. But that's not even true anyways.

    The Spanish Inquisition was caused by the Church of Spain and the Church of England. Spain and England were united against the Muslims engaged in the crusades. The Jews of that time banned together with the Muslims to fight for the dirt and rock you call Jerusalem...if only they knew the true Jerusalem of God, which is of heaven and not located on any man-made map. The Jerusalem from above is within you friend.

    Now how can Christ NOT be King if the judgments of the Beast are not accomplished? This makes no sense to me. You seem to believe that He is only made King AFTER the Beast is destroyed. Well someone has to have authority to burn the Beast with fire in the first place, and who do you believe passed that judgment?.....or was this fire an accident? Do you follow what I'm saying?

    Christ, AS KING, permitted the Beast to accomplish His will. And it was His will to let the Beast destroy the Harlot. Once the Harlot was destroyed, He focused His attention on the nations, especially those with a haughty attitude:

    Deuteronomy 32
    Of Jerusalem's destruction
    26 I would have said, “I will dash them in pieces,
    I will make the memory of them to cease from among men,”

    Of the Nations who destroyed her
    27 Had I not feared the wrath of the enemy,
    Lest their adversaries should misunderstand,
    Lest they should say, “Our hand is high;
    And it is not the LORD who has done all this.”’
    Now I took the above passage out of context, for that was the captivity of the Babylonian Empire that Moses sung about. But notice what God was saying. He would bring all nations against Israel because of their harlotry. But the nations apparently became haughty in attitude. So what Does Christ say? "I would have dashed them to pieces and make a memory of them, HAD I NOT FEARED THE WRATH OF THE ENEMY, LEST THEIR ADVERSARIES SHOULD MISUNDERSTAND AND LIFT A HIGH HAND [as if God had nothing to do with that decision]"

    And that is exactly what happened to Rome. They did not understand their purpose as to why God permitted them to destroy Jerusalem. What they didn't know was that THEY were next in line, especially after trying to wipe Israel off the face of the planet by building their own temple on the former site, and trying to change its name....they tried to erase every ounce of Jewish History and misunderstood their purpose.

    Sadly, I can see that futurist misunderstand as well, and noooo it wasn't about the time of hardening, for I've already proved that with solid irrefutable evidence in scripture that the "seeing but not seeing" and "hearing but not understanding" was fulfilled when all the cities of Jerusalem were laid wasted. It was the remnant which was charged with the ministry of the gospels, and it was the remnant which established the building of the Kingdom. And it was Christ who took His kingdom and conquered the nations of Rome....WITHOUT lifting one single weapon. Why? Because as Christ said, "They will learn the ways of war no more...." as in the days of old when Joshua led his people against the tribes of the land, or when David fought against the Philistines. No, those days of hand on hand combat to defend Israel were over with God's Kingdom. God's Kingdom doesn't war with man-made weapons. On the contrary, we war with the double edged sword called the word of God. We don't wear solid metal armor, but the shield and helmet of faith and salvation. We don't fight with swords or spears, we fight with pruning hooks and plowshares. Pruning hooks were used to cut down the grapes when they become ripe. Plowshares were used to cultivate the soil and plant seeds. Do you understand now? How does the Kingdom of God over-taken nations? By planting seeds of love, faith, and holiness within them. When it is fully grown, the trees are numerous for the birds of all nations to find rest for their wings....hear if you can hear me.

    As for the crusades, that wasn't God's Kingdom. That was a back-slidden kingdom bearing the name Christian, but was more Spanish and English rather than Christian. Very sadly, we have our own crusades led by one of the great leaders of Futurism, and his name is John Hagaee! Why are Futurists so determined to war on geographical Israel's side? Show me any command in the scriptures where this is part of God's plan! Show me anywhere in Biblical History where a nation sides with the prostitute! They are not rejected from the kingdom, but they themselves choose to be rejected, by their own works and not by divine blindness or judgment as the Haganeres propose....I invented that name. If you're not careful, you'll be misled by the flesh thinkers of the Hagaee camp.

    Joe
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 11-30-2007 at 05:01 PM.

  10. #10
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    Hi Joe,
    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    How do I define this as the Christ? Read again to what you posted and tell me its not obvious what Daniel is shown.
    The verse you posted was about somebody with white hair. how did you determine that was Jesus and not his Father, the ones that does all the things in Daniel, like giving visions.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    He says, "The beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given over to burning flame..." The Beast is the Roman Empire....does the Roman Empire exist anymore? Not even close to it, and I fail to see how people assume that Rome exists. Sure there's the Roman Catholic Church, but they are not close enough to be called "The Beast". You can speculate that the Spanish Inquisition was based on a threat by the RCC. But that's not even true anyways.
    That was a 'will be event' when it was written down in Daniel. We agree that the 4th Beast is from the iron. when did the brass do this,
    Da:2:39: And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. What does God call 'all the earth',
    Ge:1:26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
    That's one, seems to be the same boundary as the iron and clay.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    The Spanish Inquisition was caused by the Church of Spain and the Church of England. Spain and England were united against the Muslims engaged in the crusades. The Jews of that time banned together with the Muslims to fight for the dirt and rock you call Jerusalem...if only they knew the true Jerusalem of God, which is of heaven and not located on any man-made map. The Jerusalem from above is within you friend.
    No the Jerusalem which is above is going to stay there until God sends it to the new earth.

    Anybody do the math yet for that pic of the earth with that city attached? Expand the earth until that city occupies the same proportion of land that the city of Jerusalem occupied when those verses were given. If it was 1000& larger then multiply by the same number. Would that break anything or is it we just can't 'see it' happening?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Now how can Christ NOT be King if the judgments of the Beast are not accomplished? This makes no sense to me. You seem to believe that He is only made King AFTER the Beast is destroyed. Well someone has to have authority to burn the Beast with fire in the first place, and who do you believe passed that judgment?.....or was this fire an accident? Do you follow what I'm saying?
    What you are reading hasn't happened yet, that is how.
    I believe He is king that is what gives Him the power and authority to throw out whoever is ruler of all the earth at that time. To mesh it also has to fit with Revelation, Rome is the 6th out of 8 before Christ. A kingdom cannot fall to itself. Rome cannot become revived Rome.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Christ, AS KING, permitted the Beast to accomplish His will. And it was His will to let the Beast destroy the Harlot. Once the Harlot was destroyed, He focused His attention on the nations, especially those with a haughty attitude:
    Are you referencing from 70AD and on?

    That's like saying it was God's will that Eve ate from the fruit of that tree. Is it God's will that Satan will be full of wrath or is Satan just pissed at man. Itty bitty man caused the fall of a very high angel? I'm sure he'll be understanding about the whole thing when he knows he has a short time on earth before going to the lake, along with those who are sands of the sea. The only permission I can see is that it written such a way that he did have a further role after the fall.
    Do you believe fallen angels roamed the earth before the flood? If they did would, was, is not, will be could apply to one of them if he was, then chained in a pit, then released for 42 months, 3 1/2 years, 1260 days (your pick of one). How does that fit into your version, the 42?

    Re:12:12: Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    And that is exactly what happened to Rome. They did not understand their purpose as to why God permitted them to destroy Jerusalem. What they didn't know was that THEY were next in line, especially after trying to wipe Israel off the face of the planet by building their own temple on the former site, and trying to change its name....they tried to erase every ounce of Jewish History and misunderstood their purpose.
    Now that's interesting, does this cover that event?
    Da:11:45: And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

    Before you answer does the next verse continue with info about what happens when 'none shall help him'

    Da:12:1: And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
    Da:12:2: And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
    Da:12:3: And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
    Da:12:4: But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Sadly, I can see that futurist misunderstand as well, and noooo it wasn't about the time of hardening, for I've already proved that with solid irrefutable evidence in scripture that the "seeing but not seeing" and "hearing but not understanding" was fulfilled when all the cities of Jerusalem were laid wasted.
    Babylon isn't the only city that is to fall at that time, assuming the vials have been poured out already,
    Re:16:19: And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    It was the remnant which was charged with the ministry of the gospels, and it was the remnant which established the building of the Kingdom. And it was Christ who took His kingdom and conquered the nations of Rome....WITHOUT lifting one single weapon. Why? Because as Christ said, "They will learn the ways of war no more...." as in the days of old when Joshua led his people against the tribes of the land, or when David fought against the Philistines. No, those days of hand on hand combat to defend Israel were over with God's Kingdom. God's Kingdom doesn't war with man-made weapons. On the contrary, we war with the double edged sword called the word of God. We don't wear solid metal armor, but the shield and helmet of faith and salvation. We don't fight with swords or spears, we fight with pruning hooks and plowshares. Pruning hooks were used to cut down the grapes when they become ripe. Plowshares were used to cultivate the soil and plant seeds. Do you understand now? How does the Kingdom of God over-taken nations? By planting seeds of love, faith, and holiness within them. When it is fully grown, the trees are numerous for the birds of all nations to find rest for their wings....hear if you can hear me.
    Helpful insight for sure. Western Canada was settled by Christians, there used to be some very nice soil, now it is just there to hold up some sticks. And you say God was with these people when they came with their plows. When the Church is in the nations using up all that steel is anybody even going to ask how big they should be? How much steel is used to build swords?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    As for the crusades, that wasn't God's Kingdom. That was a back-slidden kingdom bearing the name Christian, but was more Spanish and English rather than Christian.
    I assume that was a temporary slide and most nations are on track these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Very sadly, we have our own crusades led by one of the great leaders of Futurism, and his name is John Hagaee! Why are Futurists so determined to war on geographical Israel's side? Show me any command in the scriptures where this is part of God's plan! Show me anywhere in Biblical History where a nation sides with the prostitute! They are not rejected from the kingdom, but they themselves choose to be rejected, by their own works and not by divine blindness or judgment as the Haganeres propose....I invented that name. If you're not careful, you'll be misled by the flesh thinkers of the Hagaee camp.
    Apparently that would be 'some futurists', I don't think it much matters what goes on there today, Satan's going to control it before Christ returns,
    2Th:2:4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    2Th:2:8: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    2Th:2:9: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,




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    Wayne

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