God to Jesus. I just condemned the human race. Now go die to save them.

[Greatest I am]

Eve was taken from Adam's rib as a 'precept' of how the Bride of Christ will be taken from the Body of Christ (church).

Adam's naming of the animals seems likely indicator of high IQ ?? But Hos6:7 calls him treacherous!

Eve hadn't been created when God told Adam not to eat -- so don't blame her. Also, since she was exapatao 'greatly deceived', probably by Adam telling her not to even touch the tree. Likely he hadn't explained about the Tree of Life. You think?

Good point that prompts the question.

If Eve was deceived by a tempter that God allowed to access her, did she deserve to be punished?

FMPOV, I would be quite the prick if I did that to one of my children.
And I do not think I am that good of a parent.

Regards
DL

[CWH]

Good point that prompts the question.

If Eve was deceived by a tempter that God allowed to access her, did she deserve to be punished?

FMPOV, I would be quite the prick if I did that to one of my children.
And I do not think I am that good of a parent.

Regards
DL

If your son is tempted by money and decided to rob the bank knowing well that it is against the law which warns that robbers will be punished and jailed. He finally decided to take the risk and robbed t he bank knowing that he will be an instant millionaire if he is successful. However, he failed and was caught and punished according to the law, who was to blame? Did the son deserve to be punished?

God Blessed.

[Silence]

Silence

Would God have been more accurate in telling A & E, not that they would die, but that he would kill them by denying them the tree of life?

Christians call Eden man's fall. Jews, who wrote those scriptures, call Eden man's elevation.

Do you think that to gain the knowledge that makes one as God, --- God's own word in this myth, ---- is a bad thing?

Regards
DL

Hello DL,

Is there a disconnect in the Jewish mind between the need for a Savior and the multiplication of sorrow and pain in childbirth, the husband ruling over his wife, toiling among thorns and thistles in sweat to get something to eat from ground that has been cursed, only to die and return to the dust? The first thing God mentions the "Seed of the woman" doing is having enmity with the nachash and crushing his head, but isn't relief from their sorrow, pain and toil in view also? How can those things be considered "an elevation"?

As for gaining "knowedge of good and evil", does Genesis 3:22 actually say this was accomplished, or could it also be saying "the man has become like one of us (in order to) know good and evil", without stating that it was actually now the case? Why is the lamech in front of the word da-ath? Is that just the way God chose to make clear that the only way Adam and Eve had become like Him was in knowing good and evil? "Behold, the man has become like one of us (only to the point of) knowing good and evil, and now lest he put forth his hand ....". Many bible commentators say that keeping Adam and Eve away from the tree of life was God's way of preventing them from eating of it in their fallen condition (Genesis 3:16 -19) and living forever in that condition.

And whether Adam and Eve actually gained full knowledge of good and evil, there is another aspect that comes into play as far as gaining this knowledge goes. There are few things more tormenting than knowing what should be done and being powerless to do it. Paul talked about this in Romans 7:14 -24. He also talked about the solution to the problem. So in a roundabout way, Eden and the results of what happened there do result in an "elevation" in the long run, but only as a part of the journey, not as a destination.

[Greatest I am]

If your son is tempted by money and decided to rob the bank knowing well that it is against the law which warns that robbers will be punished and jailed. He finally decided to take the risk and robbed t he bank knowing that he will be an instant millionaire if he is successful. However, he failed and was caught and punished according to the law, who was to blame? Did the son deserve to be punished?

God Blessed.

Money is not knowledge of damned near everything as some think the tree of knowledge is.
I would not punish anyone at any time for see3king knowledge. That is what humans do naturally.

If my son was tempted by a supernatural force given the power by God to deceive the whole world, what chance would he have? None. Neither did Eve.

No chance at all and that is the way your God set her up.

Did she deserve to be punished by your God who let Satan tempt her?

We have a scenario in Eden. No need to create a new one without the supernatural element that makes a huge difference.

No deflection of bobbing and weaving please. Just answer the question based on the myth presented.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

Hello DL,

Is there a disconnect in the Jewish mind between the need for a Savior and the multiplication of sorrow and pain in childbirth, the husband ruling over his wife, toiling among thorns and thistles in sweat to get something to eat from ground that has been cursed, only to die and return to the dust? The first thing God mentions the "Seed of the woman" doing is having enmity with the nachash and crushing his head, but isn't relief from their sorrow, pain and toil in view also? How can those things be considered "an elevation"?

As for gaining "knowedge of good and evil", does Genesis 3:22 actually say this was accomplished, or could it also be saying "the man has become like one of us (in order to) know good and evil", without stating that it was actually now the case? Why is the lamech in front of the word da-ath? Is that just the way God chose to make clear that the only way Adam and Eve had become like Him was in knowing good and evil? "Behold, the man has become like one of us (only to the point of) knowing good and evil, and now lest he put forth his hand ....". Many bible commentators say that keeping Adam and Eve away from the tree of life was God's way of preventing them from eating of it in their fallen condition (Genesis 3:16 -19) and living forever in that condition.

And whether Adam and Eve actually gained full knowledge of good and evil, there is another aspect that comes into play as far as gaining this knowledge goes. There are few things more tormenting than knowing what should be done and being powerless to do it. Paul talked about this in Romans 7:14 -24. He also talked about the solution to the problem. So in a roundabout way, Eden and the results of what happened there do result in an "elevation" in the long run, but only as a part of the journey, not as a destination.

So what was it? A fall or an elevation?

Should A & E have remained with their eyes closed to almost all knowledge?

Invoking the N T is foolish at this point.
It was not written till hundreds of years later.

Regards
DL

[Silence]

I don't have a definitive answer to whether what happened in the garden should be considered an "elevation" or a "fall". Thinking about this question the last few days has resulted in coming up with a few ideas about how the whole creation/fall/redemption story could have taken a different course, but still ended up at the same destination that the book of Revelation describes. Kind of like the reverse of what Hollywood does when they make the main body of a film consistent, and then film several different endings. In the scenario I am thinking of, it would be the ending that would be the same, but the preceding parts leading up to the end would take different paths.

Maybe if Adam and Eve had eaten from the tree of life and ignored the tree of "knowledge", we would have a different bible, or maybe no bible at all since "life" seems to be one of the major, if not the only, focus and goal of the bible. Perhaps if they had eaten of "life" from the tree of life which was not prohibited from them, there would have been no need to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Perhaps knowledge of good and evil is encompassed by and transcended by, the fruit of the tree of life. Maybe if they had freely partaken of the fruit from the tree of life God would have fed them fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, as opposed to them taking it for themselves.

Life and power are linked together often in the bible. People say that knowledge is power, but like I mentioned in my last post, there are plenty of times where knowledge is not really a help to one who cannot put their knowledge into action. In those cases, their knowledge only serves to bring their powerlessness to their attention. There are times in the bible where God taunts men and dares them to do something either good or evil so that they should be feared. The implication is that man is incapable of doing fearful or wonderful things on the same scale, or as quickly, as God does. The "great feats" that man does accomplish take a long time to develop and involve the efforts of a lot of individuals over many generations.

It does seem unfair that when telling Adam that he would die in the day he ate from the forbidden tree, that He didn't also tell him that eating from the tree of life would cause him to live "L - Olam" (for an unspecified length of time, much longer than a day). That revelation didn't come until after he and his wife had already eaten from the other tree.

[Greatest I am]

I don't have a definitive answer to whether what happened in the garden should be considered an "elevation" or a "fall". Thinking about this question the last few days has resulted in coming up with a few ideas about how the whole creation/fall/redemption story could have taken a different course, but still ended up at the same destination that the book of Revelation describes. Kind of like the reverse of what Hollywood does when they make the main body of a film consistent, and then film several different endings. In the scenario I am thinking of, it would be the ending that would be the same, but the preceding parts leading up to the end would take different paths.

Maybe if Adam and Eve had eaten from the tree of life and ignored the tree of "knowledge", we would have a different bible, or maybe no bible at all since "life" seems to be one of the major, if not the only, focus and goal of the bible. Perhaps if they had eaten of "life" from the tree of life which was not prohibited from them, there would have been no need to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Perhaps knowledge of good and evil is encompassed by and transcended by, the fruit of the tree of life. Maybe if they had freely partaken of the fruit from the tree of life God would have fed them fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, as opposed to them taking it for themselves.

Life and power are linked together often in the bible. People say that knowledge is power, but like I mentioned in my last post, there are plenty of times where knowledge is not really a help to one who cannot put their knowledge into action. In those cases, their knowledge only serves to bring their powerlessness to their attention. There are times in the bible where God taunts men and dares them to do something either good or evil so that they should be feared. The implication is that man is incapable of doing fearful or wonderful things on the same scale, or as quickly, as God does. The "great feats" that man does accomplish take a long time to develop and involve the efforts of a lot of individuals over many generations.

It does seem unfair that when telling Adam that he would die in the day he ate from the forbidden tree, that He didn't also tell him that eating from the tree of life would cause him to live "L - Olam" (for an unspecified length of time, much longer than a day). That revelation didn't come until after he and his wife had already eaten from the other tree.

Yes. Full disclosure was missing in God's warning.

As to the tree of life. Have you not noticed that the ancients never bemoan it's loss anywhere in scriptures?
They knew that it was a myth and if you note, elsewhere in scriptures when they use that term, it is just to denote a good life, not an everlasting one.

As to elevation or not.
What would you like to see from your own children?
Would you like them to emulate you or even surpass what you are?
I hope so.
If so, would our heavenly father not want the same for his children?
Or would he want then to forever have their eyes closed and never opened by knowledge that leads to wisdom and Godliness?

Have a look at what their world would be like without the knowledge of good and evil.
Analyze the water scene.
Would you like to live in that type of ignorance of good and evil?

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x88...60-part-6_news

Regards
DL

[David M]

Hello all

Should God have given Adam and Eve a hundred page contract written in a Word document telling them the precise terms by what He meant by Tree of Life or Tree of Good and Evil and what would be the consequences? This was a simple test, not a test of whether they could understand legalistic jargon.

It does not matter what the trees represented. The eating of the tree did not impart to them any innate knowledge of Good and Evil stored in the tree's fruit. Simply, God said; "Do not" and Eve "Did". Why complicate matters by reading into this story more than there is. I can make conjecture and it is interesting to do so, but conjecture does not change the result. I see no reason not to think Eve deceived herself. The snake could have been real, and who is to say that God did not instruct and Angel to be transformed into a serpent or that an Angel did speak according to God's instruction like Balaam's donkey spoke?

But why blame God when just God's instruction "Do Not" meant Eve's mind went into overdrive. "Why shouldn't I eat? The fruit looks as good as any other fruit which I have eaten. Surely God will not do anything. What does God mean I shall die? Shall I ask God what he means? No, I won't disturb Him, I will eat and find out. Now that did not do me any harm when I ate of the fruit, I will go an take some to Adam and show him that nothing happens."

From what we read elsewhere and the fact that we are drawn away by our own lust, I simply accept that the serpent is a personification of what took place in Eve's mind. Either Adam or Eve could have succumbed to the same wrong conclusion. And why not when they did not know what would happen if they ate of the Tree of Life. God could have said;"here are two trees A and B, but do not eat the fruit of A". Maybe for the first time Eve was using her imagination and reasoning. Eve was probably using her imagination looking at the forbidden fruit while Adam was busy using his imagination to come up with names to give the animals.

All God had to do was designate two trees; one to represent Life and the other Good and Evil. Would it have made a difference if God had said;" do not eat of the Tree of Life"? If the fruit had looked good to eat and Eve desired to eat it, she would have done so. The story makes better sense when Eve learnt and Adam learnt the consequences of their action to name the tree; 'The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil'. Had the tree been labelled "B" that tree would have become known as the
Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil because of the experience to Adam and Eve. For the first time they experienced the knowledge that it was evil to disobey God and the knowledge that it would have been good to have obeyed.

Yes, things could be very different today if Adam and Eve had not eaten of the forbidden fruit, but would that have proven that all men and women (their descendants) would have obeyed God? If people cannot obey God's instruction now, does not that prove God was right to get man and women to fail from the start? We know by God causing Jesus to be born and by correctly guiding him, that it was possible for the human mind to obey God.

Was it possible for mankind to do good if not instructed from the earliest of their understanding. Look what happened in the time of the Great Flood when everyone was doing that which was right in their own eyes. Do parents instruct their children enough not to break the law when they grow older. Do we observe the 30 mph speed limit and do we get upset when prosecuted for doing 31mph in a 30 mph zone. Why did it take 30 years before Jesus was ready to begin his ministry. What was Jesus doing for all that time. From a youth Jesus knew he had to do his Father's business. Do we instill in youngsters from a very early age it is their duty to obey God or the laws of the country we lived in?

We need instruction and we need laws to keep most people under some sort of control. The law given to Moses was to be taught to them and as the Apostle Paul says; the law was the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. In view of the fact that we should teach children the right ways from an early age, we see why Jesus condemned those who prevented little children coming to him. That is why it is one matter to turn ourselves away from God, but it is a more serious matter to turn others away from coming to God.

We are dealing with both simple and complex situations for which we do not have the complete answer. We are unable to match God's power to read people's hearts and so we are unable to make a judgement in the way that God can, so we have to leave matters to Him and concentrate on getting our own lives in order and if we can help other people on the way that is what we should be doing, not doing things against our neighbor that does not help them. We are free to destroy ourselves, and we are very accountable for the destruction of others for what ever reason. God is capable enough of dealing with the wicked and He has said that vengeance belongeth to Him, so we do not have the worry of dealing with wayward people. Society has rejected God and in some ways God is letting man get on with it so we cannot blame God for not intervening and stopping every criminal act.

God even though He does not intervene, the atrocities we see happening around the world and in our neighborhood tests our faith in God. It might be too simplistic for some to accept that God knows everything that has been done. God decides who will be in the Kingdom and who will not, all we should do is leave the judgement to God and know that where a person showed the potential to be obedient even though their life was cut short by another person's abominable act, God will be merciful and raise that person to life again. We do not have to worry about the righteous, we have to worry about ourselves and saving other unrighteous people from the judgment to come.

All the best,

David

[CWH]

I don't have a definitive answer to whether what happened in the garden should be considered an "elevation" or a "fall". Thinking about this question the last few days has resulted in coming up with a few ideas about how the whole creation/fall/redemption story could have taken a different course, but still ended up at the same destination that the book of Revelation describes. Kind of like the reverse of what Hollywood does when they make the main body of a film consistent, and then film several different endings. In the scenario I am thinking of, it would be the ending that would be the same, but the preceding parts leading up to the end would take different paths.

Maybe if Adam and Eve had eaten from the tree of life and ignored the tree of "knowledge", we would have a different bible, or maybe no bible at all since "life" seems to be one of the major, if not the only, focus and goal of the bible. Perhaps if they had eaten of "life" from the tree of life which was not prohibited from them, there would have been no need to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Perhaps knowledge of good and evil is encompassed by and transcended by, the fruit of the tree of life. Maybe if they had freely partaken of the fruit from the tree of life God would have fed them fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, as opposed to them taking it for themselves.

Life and power are linked together often in the bible. People say that knowledge is power, but like I mentioned in my last post, there are plenty of times where knowledge is not really a help to one who cannot put their knowledge into action. In those cases, their knowledge only serves to bring their powerlessness to their attention. There are times in the bible where God taunts men and dares them to do something either good or evil so that they should be feared. The implication is that man is incapable of doing fearful or wonderful things on the same scale, or as quickly, as God does. The "great feats" that man does accomplish take a long time to develop and involve the efforts of a lot of individuals over many generations.

It does seem unfair that when telling Adam that he would die in the day he ate from the forbidden tree, that He didn't also tell him that eating from the tree of life would cause him to live "L - Olam" (for an unspecified length of time, much longer than a day). That revelation didn't come until after he and his wife had already eaten from the other tree.

To understand the Fall, one must understand the following:
1. Is it wrong to have the knowledge of good and evil? If it is wrong, why do God have that knowledge?
2. Why must God test Adam and Eve whether they obey His commandment or not?
3. Is it wrong to eat the fruit of the tree of life? No. Then, why didn't God allow Adam and Eve to partake the fruit of the tree of life after they have taken the forbidden fruit and obtained the knowledge of good and evil so that they could live forever?

Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

The answer lies in the heart of Man. God tested Adam and Eve and found their heart was disobedient to God with no sincere love for God with all their heart soul and might and love your neighbor as yourself. In other words, there is not much righteousness in Man's heart. No doubt Eve and Adam wanted to be like God, who lived forever and knowing good and evil but their heart is not righteous enough to be awarded eternal life. In other words, they need to learn to be righteous in order to gain eternal life. Imagine Hitler who wanted to be like God, knowing good and evil but bent on evil ambitions to conquer the world. What will the world be like if one is like God, knowing good and evil but bent on doing evil continuously and live forever? It is thus brilliant that God will only give eternal life to righteous men i.e. if Man become righteous, loving God with all their heart, soul and might and love thy neighbor as yourself so that the world will be an excellent place to live.


May God Bless us to be Righteous.

[Greatest I am]

David

Ok. The tree that makes man into Gods, Gods own words, is not important.

Just important enough to have God murder them by denying them what would save them.
A moral sense is of no impotance to mankind.

Trust between God and man was not important either and God lying by omission to A & E was not important at all.

Have it your way and learn nothing from the opening chapters of God's word. His word holds nothing important.

Never mind that God exploded all over them the first time they did their so called free will instead of doing God's will and dared to show autonomy.

Let`s just move on to where God uses genocide against mankind and has his own son murdered then. Nothing important there either but what the hell. Let`s justify genocide and infantiside on God`s part. We all know he can do no wrong no matter how many babies he murders.

Regards
DL