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  1. #11
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    The key is education as you indicate and the young are getting brighter.

    I have noted that from when I first started writing in B B's to now, there are quite a lot less fundamentals going about. Rejection is hard to take when all you have to sell is dogma and a genocidal son murdering God whose religion is based on immoral human sacrifice.

    Regards
    DL

  2. #12
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    Since the Bible God established the order with man as the head, and if the Bible God dosen't exist according to the reasoning of some, why have women not been able to reverse it? Seems like they should have turned it around some time ago, if they were able.

    Don't get your panties in a bunch... I'm just asking.

    John

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    Since the Bible God established the order with man as the head, and if the Bible God dosen't exist according to the reasoning of some, why have women not been able to reverse it? Seems like they should have turned it around some time ago, if they were able.

    Don't get your panties in a bunch... I'm just asking.

    John
    "If they were able" says it all. In primitive society brawn dominated brain and might made right. The Bible was written by primitive men and so it reflects their primitive morality and social structure. As civilization advanced, people became more civilized and their moral sense improved. The big change began with the scientific revolution and the consequent drop in the authority of the Bible and it's hold over the minds of men. It was then that women finally began to find freedom ... though even male slaves were given freedom before them (which reveals the abject bondage in which they were held).

    Richard

    PS: My panties are fine. I always wear the silk variety to avoid the bunching problem.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    Since the Bible God established the order with man as the head, and if the Bible God dosen't exist according to the reasoning of some, why have women not been able to reverse it? Seems like they should have turned it around some time ago, if they were able.

    Don't get your panties in a bunch... I'm just asking.

    John
    Have a look at what the sufferance movement had to say.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqN8E...eature=related

    Regards
    DL

  5. #15
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    Men and Women not equal

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    "If they were able" says it all. In primitive society brawn dominated brain and might made right. The Bible was written by primitive men and so it reflects their primitive morality and social structure. As civilization advanced, people became more civilized and their moral sense improved. The big change began with the scientific revolution and the consequent drop in the authority of the Bible and it's hold over the minds of men. It was then that women finally began to find freedom ... though even male slaves were given freedom before them (which reveals the abject bondage in which they were held).

    Richard
    Top 'O the mornin' to ya Richard!

    What I conclude from your assessment is that men and women are not equal. Men are overpowering descendants of the missing link, responsible for the enslavement of women since the dawn of recorded history. But wait, there's more...Now, due to the final results of the scientific revolution (ta-da) women are now resolved/entitled/enabled/ to assume/acquire/accept their natural role of equality.

    Well then, if the above is true, let's restate the proposition in the form of a twofold question; If men and women (or women and men) are equal, why don't women take charge? What is holding them back?

    PS: My panties are fine. I always wear the silk variety to avoid the bunching problem.
    lol

    I've incorporated a little sarcastic humor to maintain an acceptable level of equally distributed sarcastic & demeaning comments.

    Now, to fulfill my role as breadwinner, assuming my role in the care of, and provision for, my beautiful wife, and to help alleviate any of her inherited/innate insecurities, off to work I go... Hi Ho.

    John

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    Top 'O the mornin' to ya Richard!

    What I conclude from your assessment is that men and women are not equal. Men are overpowering descendants of the missing link, responsible for the enslavement of women since the dawn of recorded history. But wait, there's more...Now, due to the final results of the scientific revolution (ta-da) women are now resolved/entitled/enabled/ to assume/acquire/accept their natural role of equality.

    Well then, if the above is true, let's restate the proposition in the form of a twofold question; If men and women (or women and men) are equal, why don't women take charge? What is holding them back?
    And a howdy hi to thee, mate!

    I do believe you have made quite a caricature of my understanding, and oddly, your own. We are not talking about men and women being "equal" in an ontological sense! We are talking about equal in the sense of being EQUALLY HUMAN and so deserving equal HUMAN RIGHTS in all things. Domination of one sex over the other is just as bad as domination of one race over another. It is morally wrong, no matter how much it was accepted as "natural" in the past by male dominated societies.

    You seem to have misunderstood my reference to the scientific revolution. I mentioned it because it led to a more skeptical and informed society which was not willing to live in the dark bondage of dogmatic religions, and this helped free society from the Bible and the male domination it teaches. It also led to greater prosperity, education, communication and so forth, and all these things are inimical to dogmatic religions. (Just think of what the humble printing press did to Catholic supremacy.) That's why the abolitionist and equal rights movements began to be successful after the scientific revolution.

    Your question "why don't women take charge?" seems to contain two false assumptions. 1) Women do not want to "take charge" over men in the way that men have historically ruled over women, so if that's what you meant, then your question is ill-founded. 2) Women are "taking charge" of their own lives in record numbers, despite opposition from those who hold primitive world views.

    As for evolution, I think there is plenty of evidence that humans evolved along with all life on this planet (as do many evangelical Christians such as Dr. Francis Collins, the former head of the Human Genome project), but that's not relevant to the question of equal rights for women. It doesn't matter how we got here - the point is that societies in the past were much more primitive than now, and concern for the equal rights for all humans - whether blacks, women, gays, handicapped, or whatever - is a product of our modern moral sensibilities.

    Finally, you asked "What's holding them back?" Isn't that obvious? You are!

    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    I've incorporated a little sarcastic humor to maintain an acceptable level of equally distributed sarcastic & demeaning comments.

    Now, to fulfill my role as breadwinner, assuming my role in the care of, and provision for, my beautiful wife, and to help alleviate any of her inherited/innate insecurities, off to work I go... Hi Ho.

    John
    What does your wife do all day? Do you have kids?

    There's nothing wrong with a couple freely choosing roles based on traditional sexual stereotypes, since there are reasons for those stereotypes. The problem comes only when such stereotypes are forced upon people who don't want them.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
    Have a look at what the sufferance movement had to say.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqN8E...eature=related

    Regards
    DL
    Hi DL

    Thanks for sharing the link, I'm also going to share the video on another thread.

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi DL

    Thanks for sharing the link, I'm also going to share the video on another thread.

    Rose
    Nice.

    Regards
    DL

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    And a howdy hi to thee, mate!

    Finally, you asked "What's holding them back?" Isn't that obvious? You are!
    Richard, you have seemingly come to a point in your judgement where you are unable to discern between the advocate and the adversary. Allow me to paint you a picture of the demographic of our family;

    Mom had two sons 13 years apart. I am the younger. From my earliest memories, mother read to me from the illustrated bible. Those words and pictures are still with me many years later. I passed on this legacy to my children by making it a routine to read one daily chapter of Proverbs matching the day at our breakfast table before our children left for school. Now our children emphasize the importance of Scripture with our 11 grandchildren. All of these grandchildren are home schooled by their mothers. The two oldest boys now attend a public school (not until their Jr. high years), where they rank toward the top of their classes. All of our children are saved and 7 of the older grandchildren (ages 12-16) have been saved and baptized. This of their own volition, compelled only by the Spirit of God.

    Our children teach their children biblical principals which are either unpopular or forbidden in many public schools. They are taught to be kind to, and respect those of differing colors and ethnicities. In addition to the basics of math, history, geography and social studies, they are admonished in the morals of honesty and integrity. For every 1/2 hour of TV, they consume 3 hours in books, including the bible, and they are reminded that one day they will give an account of their life to their creator. This is my family.

    Here is my brothers family... 3 boys and two girls. All grown with families of their own except the youngest son who has yet to marry. My brother and his wife of almost 50 years have 12 grandchildren, 3 of these grandchildren are adopted black girls. Our family is white caucasian. All of the children and grandchildren of my brother are saved.

    All of my children and my brother's children are gainfully employed and not a burden to society. There are no drug problems or social issues. They contribute a share of their weekly income to mission projects in various parts of the world, as do their parents. My niece's son graduates from high school this year and his summer is committed to serving at the bible camp along with several of his cousins where they will council other youth who may be experiencing difficulties. All of our children have served terms at bible camps... without pay.

    We have taught our children that God has a plan for marriage and families, and that even though there will be disappointments in this life, following His plan will prove rewarding in the end. The world never ceases to reinvent an alternative lifestyle in its pursuit of happiness. In following His plan, our family has found many blessings.

    We will be getting together with both families this weekend to celebrate Tyler's graduation at his open house. From mom's two sons, there will be 41 of us. We all get along wonderfully.

    By the way, my wife has been a housewife and nurturer to our children and grandchildren for our entire marriage of 39 years with the exception of a few short years as a real estate salesperson during our children's high school and college years. She now decorates and cleans our vacation rentals.

    Richard, depending on which side of the line you are on, will determine whether or not we are the enemy. If we are guilty of trying to hold anything back, it is the unwarranted assault on biblical values launched by a downward spiraling secular world, and so far, history is its witness.

    John

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    Finally, you asked "What's holding them back?" Isn't that obvious? You are!
    Richard, you have seemingly come to a point in your judgement where you are unable to discern between the advocate and the adversary.
    Hey there my friend!

    I'm really sorry you misread my intent. I don't think of you as an enemy at all. I thought I made it clear that I wasn't getting my "panties in a bunch" over this. When I said "you" I did not mean it in an accusatory sense but rather as a "case in point" meaning that you are a representative of those who support the Biblical teaching on women which we have been discussing. You had asked what holds women back, but you already knew my answer - the traditional social structures, supported largely by the Bible, is what has held women back. You are supporting those teachings, so you are, in effect, contributing to the problem. But again, I don't mean this in any "accusatory" sense - I'm just describing what appears to be the reality.

    Do you agree that the Bible teaches male dominance over women? How do you interpret the passages where Paul says a women must be silent, in all subjugation, and not teach because woman must not "usurp authority over a man?" Could anything be more sexist? I get the impression you believe men should rule over women, even if in your own family you rule with a very gentle hand. I find that to be a primitive and unjust view. I am glad to see it is fading and feel it is my duty to help eradicate it. My goal is to help build a world into which I would want to be born, whether I was male or female, black, white, Latino, Chinese, smart, stupid, gay, lesbian, Christian, Jew, Hindu or Atheist. That's the kind of world I want. The age of patriarchy, male domination, racism, and bigotry is destined to end, and I will do everything in my power to help achieve that goal.

    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    Allow me to paint you a picture of the demographic of our family;

    Mom had two sons 13 years apart. I am the younger. From my earliest memories, mother read to me from the illustrated bible. Those words and pictures are still with me many years later. I passed on this legacy to my children by making it a routine to read one daily chapter of Proverbs matching the day at our breakfast table before our children left for school. Now our children emphasize the importance of Scripture with our 11 grandchildren. All of these grandchildren are home schooled by their mothers. The two oldest boys now attend a public school (not until their Jr. high years), where they rank toward the top of their classes. All of our children are saved and 7 of the older grandchildren (ages 12-16) have been saved and baptized. This of their own volition, compelled only by the Spirit of God.
    I think it's great that your children are doing well, but it seems presumptuous to declare that it is the "Spirit of God" that is compelling them. Plenty of Hindu, Atheist, and Muslim children excel at school so it seems much more likely that it is your good parental attention and encouragement that is "compelling" them.

    To me, your comment shows how our beliefs influence our interpretation of facts. Any religiously devout person attributes their success to their god. Same facts, different gods.

    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    Our children teach their children biblical principals which are either unpopular or forbidden in many public schools. They are taught to be kind to, and respect those of differing colors and ethnicities. In addition to the basics of math, history, geography and social studies, they are admonished in the morals of honesty and integrity. For every 1/2 hour of TV, they consume 3 hours in books, including the bible, and they are reminded that one day they will give an account of their life to their creator. This is my family.
    I think it's great that you limit TV and promote reading. But where in the world did you get the idea that teaching kindness and respect of those of differing colors and ethnicities is "unpopular and forbidden in many public schools"? Public schools put an extreme emphasis on those topics, especially the latter. Of course, they don't teach those things from a Christian perspective since that would be self-contradictory.

    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    Here is my brothers family... 3 boys and two girls. All grown with families of their own except the youngest son who has yet to marry. My brother and his wife of almost 50 years have 12 grandchildren, 3 of these grandchildren are adopted black girls. Our family is white caucasian. All of the children and grandchildren of my brother are saved.

    All of my children and my brother's children are gainfully employed and not a burden to society. There are no drug problems or social issues. They contribute a share of their weekly income to mission projects in various parts of the world, as do their parents. My niece's son graduates from high school this year and his summer is committed to serving at the bible camp along with several of his cousins where they will council other youth who may be experiencing difficulties. All of our children have served terms at bible camps... without pay.
    That shows the value of traditional religion. It stabilizes family structures and society in general. In the spectrum of politics, it is on the conservative side. But every virtue has a corresponding vice, and so we need liberalism as much as conservatism. The latter can have a retarding influence because it opposes change, and in some situations it promotes gross injustices like slavery and the subjugation of women and minorities, and the supremacy of a ruling class like priests, men, or whites.

    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    We have taught our children that God has a plan for marriage and families, and that even though there will be disappointments in this life, following His plan will prove rewarding in the end. The world never ceases to reinvent an alternative lifestyle in its pursuit of happiness. In following His plan, our family has found many blessings.
    That's great, but your concept of "marriage and family" is very modern and would not be recognized by the writers of the Bible. Polygamy was common in the Bible. God himself passed the wives of Saul on to David and then from David on to Absolom to be screwed on the rooftop. Did God show any kind of consideration for those women? They had no choice in the matter at all. What was God doing passing a whole group of women around from one man to another and then another? Does that sound like "family values" to you? This shows how many people read their modern values into the Bible rather than following the values found therein.

    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    We will be getting together with both families this weekend to celebrate Tyler's graduation at his open house. From mom's two sons, there will be 41 of us. We all get along wonderfully.
    Sounds like great joy! Congratulations on a life well lived.

    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    Richard, depending on which side of the line you are on, will determine whether or not we are the enemy. If we are guilty of trying to hold anything back, it is the unwarranted assault on biblical values launched by a downward spiraling secular world, and so far, history is its witness.

    John
    Downward spiraling? You've been listening to too much propaganda my friend. The world is getting better all the time. Men were held in abject slavery and women couldn't even vote when Christians ruled this country. Historically, religious conservatives have opposed most of the moral advancements that we now take for granted.

    Thanks for taking the time to share some personal information. It was very heartwarming and it shows that religious conservatism has played an important role as a stabilizing influence in society.

    All the very best to you my friend,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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