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Thread: bible versions

  1. #21
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    I also wonder exactly which manuacripts did the apostles have in their hands.

    And why is it that they never complained whether there was a flaw in the Old Testament. Of course there was the Samaritan bible and Jesus spoke in general that Samaritans didn't know whom they worshipped.

  2. #22
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    Here is a comparison list of New Testament Quotes used by the Apostles. The texts in blue are from the Greek Septuagint, and the text in red are from the Masoretic Text used in all modern day English Bibles (except the Greek Orthodox Study Bible).

    Hebrews 10:5 (Quoted from Psalm 40:6)
    Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, 'Sacrifices and Offerings you did not desire, but a Body thou hast prepared for me….'

    Greek Septuagint: Sacrifice and offering Thou didst not; but a body Thous has prepared Me…

    Masoretic Text: Sacrifice and Offering Thou did not desire; mine ears hast Thou opened…

    As you can clearly see, this was an obvious alteration made by false Jews, sometime between the 2nd to 4rth centuries; exact time is uncertain, but we do know that Jews of that age fought against Christians using the Greek Septuagint. Thus in this case, the New Testament source used by the Apostles (specifically the author of Hebrews, probably St. Paul) relied on the Greek Septuagint.

    Hebrews 1:6 (Quoted from Deuteronomy 32:43)

    Hebrews 1:6 ( KJV New Testament)
    And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

    Greek Septuagint: Deuteronomy 32:43
    Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him...

    Deuteronomy 32:43
    The Masoretic Text deletes this half of the verse all-together! It does not exist anywhere else in the Old Testament! Such utter Blasphemy!

    Matthew 12:21 (Quoted from Isaiah 42:4)

    And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

    Greek Septuagint: Isaiah 42:4
    He shall shine out, and shall not be discouraged, until he has set judgment on the earth: and in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

    Masoretic Text: Isaiah 42:4
    He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

    The "isles" was a Jewish symbol or metaphor used to represent Israel. [note: This proves my theory that ancient Jews understood "islands" to represent Israel, while the "seas" represent Gentiles. This thus supports my position on Revelation: Land is Israel, Seas are Nations] The Jews altered this verse to show that God would send judgment upon the world, but the land of Israel (isles) would wait patiently for God. They (Jews) did not like any mention of God bringing in Gentiles to God's kingdom. We've seen this attitude displayed by even some of the Apostles in the book of Acts, when Peter had the dream of the "unclean things/animals". The "unclean animals or swine" represents fellowship with foreigners, which according to Jewish custom, was forbidden. But Jesus showed that His sacrifice and blood would make it possible for Jews and Gentiles to worship Him within a single kingdom; the Church. Apparently, the Jews rejected this idea, and altered certain verses used against them by 1st through 4rth century Christians. Their solution? Change the text to teach their descendants to maintain the Mosaic traditions of the Old Testament. Unfortunately, St. Jerome made a terrible mistake by translating the Old Testament using text handed down to him from these false Jews. This was the Latin Vulgate.

    In conclusion, while there are more examples of obvious tampering, this was enough to convince me that the Old Testament used in current English Bibles is based on the altered copies of the Masoretic Text. I know this hampers the BibleWheel vision due to the different ordering/numbering of Old Testament books, especially Isaiah and Psalm, but the truth should be clear; the Greek Septuagint is more reliable than the Masoretic Text of the Old Testament, and should thus be avoided.

    I believe that all Bible Production companies should issue an emergency recall of all current English Bibles to be replaced with the Greek Septuagint translated into English immediately. I've considered writing letters to certain publisher companies, but haven't yet decided how I would pursue this issue. Thankfully, I'm seeing more scholarly work on this subject within a few Bible colleges.

    We cannot trust the Masoretic Text. And while the Greek Septuagint might have a few errors itself, it at least completely satisfies the quotes used in the New Testament, where as the Masoretic Text is missing a great percentage of New Testament quotes.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  3. #23
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    The Koran mentions that when God created Adam the first man he commanded the angels to worship him. But Satan refused.

    Could this be taken out of context from Deuteronomy?

    -----------

    I'm trying to find a pdf version of a Septuagint Interlinear.
    Last edited by gilgal; 05-25-2012 at 01:11 PM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    The Koran mentions that when God created Adam the first man he commanded the angels to worship him. But Satan refused.

    Could this be taken out of context from Deuteronomy?

    -----------

    I'm trying to find a pdf version of a Septuagint Interlinear.
    That's an interesting idea because the verse is from the LXX and is quoted in the NT but is not found in the MT:
    KJV Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

    LXE Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people.
    I think it's significant that the author of Hebrews applies that first to Christ as the "firstborn" not unlike Adam who was the first man (and recall Christ as the second Adam). So it looks like there may have been an ancient tradition that applied that verse to Adam and which found its way into the Koran.

    Here's a link to the Septuagint Interlinear: http://septuagint-interlinear-greek-bible.com/
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven
    In conclusion, while there are more examples of obvious tampering, this was enough to convince me that the Old Testament used in current English Bibles is based on the altered copies of the Masoretic Text. I know this hampers the BibleWheel vision due to the different ordering/numbering of Old Testament books, especially Isaiah and Psalm, but the truth should be clear; the Greek Septuagint is more reliable than the Masoretic Text of the Old Testament, and should thus be avoided.

    I believe that all Bible Production companies should issue an emergency recall of all current English Bibles to be replaced with the Greek Septuagint translated into English immediately. I've considered writing letters to certain publisher companies, but haven't yet decided how I would pursue this issue. Thankfully, I'm seeing more scholarly work on this subject within a few Bible colleges.

    We cannot trust the Masoretic Text. And while the Greek Septuagint might have a few errors itself, it at least completely satisfies the quotes used in the New Testament, where as the Masoretic Text is missing a great percentage of New Testament quotes.

    Joe
    Great post Joe!

    Thanks for gathering up that information. It is a pretty compelling case for the fact that the NT relies heavily on the LXX. But I'm not convinced yet that the MT is to he tossed since we really need a Hebrew version of the OT to do our word studies. What this really shows is that we must compare the LXX, MT, and NT. Do you have any examples of when the MT is used in the NT against the LXX?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    That's an interesting idea because the verse is from the LXX and is quoted in the NT but is not found in the MT:
    KJV Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

    LXE Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people.
    I think it's significant that the author of Hebrews applies that first to Christ as the "firstborn" not unlike Adam who was the first man (and recall Christ as the second Adam). So it looks like there may have been an ancient tradition that applied that verse to Adam and which found its way into the Koran.

    Here's a link to the Septuagint Interlinear: http://septuagint-interlinear-greek-bible.com/
    That's the link i found.

    I thought I could upload it here but no success.

  7. #27
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    Is there any interlinear on the Dead Sea Scrolls?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    Is there any interlinear on the Dead Sea Scrolls?
    Google.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Great post Joe!

    Thanks for gathering up that information. It is a pretty compelling case for the fact that the NT relies heavily on the LXX. But I'm not convinced yet that the MT is to he tossed since we really need a Hebrew version of the OT to do our word studies. What this really shows is that we must compare the LXX, MT, and NT. Do you have any examples of when the MT is used in the NT against the LXX?
    Thanks my friend. I'm actually flattered that you agreed with me. I was expecting a little push-back. *laughs* By the way; what happened to the little smiley's, faces, etc? I don't see them anymore. Did you remove them from the website? Or is my Chrome not displaying them?

    I agree that we shouldn't toss aside the MT in order to preserve what form of Hebrew we do have. At the same time, it should be rejected in occasions where the verses have been altered, or are missing. I don't have any examples at this moment. However, if my memory is correct, there are only three Old Testament quotes within the New Testament that complements the Masoretic Text. But the LXX has no errors with any of the quotes; they all match to 100% percent effectiveness. The last figures I observed was something like 300 total differences between the LXX and the MT. And some of the differences not quoted in the New Testament, have either Dead Sea Scroll support, or support from a few of the early church fathers.

    Now what's interesting is I believe Origen and another church figure accused the false Jews of altering the verse. The most popular verse in question has to do with the birth of Christ. Origen denoted in his writing that the Jews purposefully replaced the word "virgin" with "young woman". Although today, some Bible scholars claim that the Hebrew word used for "young woman" could also still refer to a "virgin". I of course need proof to accept this theory because it certainly wasn't unheard of for a "young woman" to lose her virginity, either from becoming a widow, or perhaps was the result of a divorce. We know that divorces were common even during the days of Jesus, who condemned them for such behavior. Thus I do not buy into the theory that "young woman" could also mean "virgin". Besides, if Origen found this to be an issue almost 2,000 years ago, apparently the tampering must have taken place. I'll try to find my sources; I know that unsupported opinions without sources are only as valuable as counterfeit money. LOL!

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  10. #30
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