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  1. #21
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    For one moment, let us assume that the bible never existed. Do you think the world would be a better place without it? A simple yes or no will suffice.

    No, especially when they didn't get it all at once, but 'piece-meal', if you please, so the story would go world-wide by word of mouth and have lots of misguided understandings. Then, when the OT Hebrews actually saw the iron float and walls come down, etc., it would be clear to them that God was real and not just a figment of their imagination. Now in the NT we aren't privileged to SEE those things, because Faith comes by hearing and hearing... ha.
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    For one moment, let us assume that the bible never existed. Do you think the world would be a better place without it? A simple yes or no will suffice.
    Hi John,

    That is a question that is impossible to answer with a simple yes, or no because there are far to many variables involved.


    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    Perhaps you could list a few of His immoral acts.
    In the verses below Yahweh commands the Hebrews to murder every man, woman, and child, then steal their land, houses full of good things, wells, vineyards, and olive trees. On top of murder, and stealing Yahweh explicitly tells the Hebrews to show NO MERCY to the inhabitants of the land (so much for loving your neighbor). Need I list more?
    Deut.6:1 Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:... 10) And it shall be, when the LORD thy God shall have brought thee into the land which he sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give thee great and goodly cities, which thou buildedst not, And houses full of all good things, which thou filledst not, and wells digged, which thou diggedst not, vineyards and olive trees, which thou plantedst not; when thou shalt have eaten and be full;

    Deut.7:1-2 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:


    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    I mean't no offense and apologize to you Rose if my comments appear sarcastic. The point with "Rose Knows" is nothing more than a statement you would agree with. The words "I would say" simply acknowledge that your position is based on your reasoning, even if it contradicts the reasoning of another. The "Superhero" comment presents a familiar analogy contrasting the superior ability one has over another, in this case, your own personal infallible moral code that you adhere to without fault each moment you exist.



    Did you really mean that, or were you being sarcastic?

    John
    Thank you for the apology, but just to let you know Richard also noticed your sarcasm, so it wasn't just me.

    No, I wasn't being sarcastic!

    Hope you have a nice day,

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
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  3. #23
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    Good day to you Richard! I don't know how you find time to deal with all of these controversial issues. Could it be the new iMac? I know, you are hooked on it so no need for an explanation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    If sexism is not wrong, then there's nothing wrong with it.

    If sexism is wrong, then that's what's wrong with it.
    What you are suggesting is that the Bible is in error by stating that the order of responsibility in the home begins with the husband.

    Why should there be only one head of a house? Two heads are better than one. And if they can't agree, then there is probably a reason they cannot agree, and so they should talk about it until they come to an agreement. Why should the man have the last word? There's no reason to think that half the population is always right merely because they are male!
    You ask me why there should only be one head of the house. After reviewing the words of He who ordained the order, He doesn't offer me a specific reason, only to obey and be responsible. I assume He will hold me accountable for the treatment of my wife (and others) and the impact that my decisions have on her life (and others). I see no problem with this. In fact, wouldn't it be a little relief to think that someone could take full responsibility for some of our actions.

    We are not talking about "human expectations." We are talking about morality. I cannot believe that the God of the Bible is the true God because he acts in ways that are immoral. I have no choice in this matter. I simply cannot believe that God would command his people to become merciless genocidal maniacs.
    On the contrary, it is your human expectations that are binding your image of God to a standard of morality that he expects from you.

    I have enough of a handle on holiness to know that neither Hitler nor anyone who acts like him is holy.
    Since neither you nor I can reconcile the actions of a Holy God with some of the events contained in His Word, we are left with one of two possibilities, either the God of the Bible is a figment of man's imagination, or, we do not fully understand the mystery. Personally... I just don't know. On the surface, it is ugly, but perhaps underneath, there is a future beauty that shall be revealed. It is a matter of hope & trust.

    You missed my point. If we cannot judge God, then we cannot judge that God is good. We could only parrot the words "God is good" but they would have no real content. If we say that God is good no matter what he does, then the word "good" has no meaning.
    Sometimes I do miss your point Richard, but not here. Consider adding the word "purpose" as in "good purpose". It makes all the difference. For we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

    There is a flaw in your logic. You begin with the presupposition that the Bible is the Word of God. If you began with the presupposition that the Koran was the Word of God you would say that anything in the Koran that "doesn't add up" would only mean that "our math is still incomplete." Therefore, you would be trapped in a false religion with no way out.
    And of course, your logic is flawless. You begin with the presupposition that the Word of God is errant because it contains accounts that defy your human logic and since the Word does not conform to your thinking, you render it invalid.

    I very much appreciate your kind words.

    All the very best to you my friend,

    Richard
    And as always to you too Richard.

    John

  4. #24
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    [QUOTE=Rose;44473]
    In the verses below Yahweh commands the Hebrews to murder every man, woman, and child, then steal their land, houses full of good things, wells, vineyards, and olive trees. On top of murder, and stealing Yahweh explicitly tells the Hebrews to show NO MERCY to the inhabitants of the land (so much for loving your neighbor). Need I list more?
    Didn't Europeans took away Red Indian lands and wells and farms and trees? Sid they shown mercy to the Red Indian natives of the land? Did they did it under the command of God? Obviously no. It was their own motives and perhaps greed to steal the lands from the Red Indian natives. Were the Red Indians more evil than the European colonists?

    [INDENT]Deut.6:1 Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:... 10) And it shall be, when the LORD thy God shall have brought thee into the land which he sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give thee great and goodly cities, which thou buildedst not, And houses full of all good things, which thou filledst not, and wells digged, which thou diggedst not, vineyards and olive trees, which thou plantedst not; when thou shalt have eaten and be full;
    Same as what the Europeans did to the natives of North, South and Central America, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa etc. Did God command them to do it? or is it due to human desires for the lands?

    Deut.7:1-2 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
    Those people were evil and need to be destroyed, same as what the Allies did to the Nazis and the Japanese. If the Allies didn't do it and won WW2, what do you think will happen to the world right now? We will all be talking German and greeting each other with "Heil Hitler" with outstretched arm. And there will be no other race in this world except the Germanic race.
    Same as what we did to insect pests....kill them all, including their youngs and eggs or do we save these dangerous pests out of mercy?

    God Bless us.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    Good day to you Richard! I don't know how you find time to deal with all of these controversial issues. Could it be the new iMac? I know, you are hooked on it so no need for an explanation.

    What you are suggesting is that the Bible is in error by stating that the order of responsibility in the home begins with the husband.

    You ask me why there should only be one head of the house. After reviewing the words of He who ordained the order, He doesn't offer me a specific reason, only to obey and be responsible. I assume He will hold me accountable for the treatment of my wife (and others) and the impact that my decisions have on her life (and others). I see no problem with this. In fact, wouldn't it be a little relief to think that someone could take full responsibility for some of our actions.

    On the contrary, it is your human expectations that are binding your image of God to a standard of morality that he expects from you.

    Since neither you nor I can reconcile the actions of a Holy God with some of the events contained in His Word, we are left with one of two possibilities, either the God of the Bible is a figment of man's imagination, or, we do not fully understand the mystery. Personally... I just don't know. On the surface, it is ugly, but perhaps underneath, there is a future beauty that shall be revealed. It is a matter of hope & trust.

    Sometimes I do miss your point Richard, but not here. Consider adding the word "purpose" as in "good purpose". It makes all the difference. For we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

    And of course, your logic is flawless. You begin with the presupposition that the Word of God is errant because it contains accounts that defy your human logic and since the Word does not conform to your thinking, you render it invalid.

    And as always to you too Richard.

    John
    I certainly agree with you John, one day all of us men and women will be held accountable for how we treat our family. The head of the family will of course be held more accountable with the responsibility of running the family with love and fairness without abuse of power entrusted. We and everything under the earth is owned by God as this is His creation, His properties. As such, nothing is considered as property of man or owned by man. We are just tenants with the responsibilities entrusted to us to maintain the properties under our responsibility well. We will be held accountable for our responsibility and actions at the end. That's what the parable of the talents and several others are all about:

    Matt. 25:14-30.

    For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered to them his goods. And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several abilities; and straightway took his journey. Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. And likewise he that had received two, he also gained another two. But he that had received one went and dug in the earth, and hid his Lord's money. After a long time the Lord of those servants comes, and reckons with them. And so he that had received the five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, you delivered to me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. His Lord said to him, Well done, you good and faithful servant - you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things: enter you into the joy of your Lord. He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, you delivered to me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. His Lord said to him, Well done, good and faithful servant: you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things: enter you into the joy of your Lord. Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew you that you are a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed: and I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the earth: lo, there you have what is yours. His Lord answered and said to him, You wicked and lazy servant, you know that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not scattered seed: you ought therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it to him which has ten talents. For to every one that has shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that has not shall be taken away even that which he has. And cast you the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


    Therefore is the Kingdom of Heaven like a certain King, who would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought to him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But for as much as he had not to pay, his Lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me and I will pay you all. Then the Lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him and forgave him the debt. But the same: servant went out, and found one of his fellow-servants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that you owe. And his fellow-servant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying. Have patience with me, and I will pay you all. And he would not; but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. So when his fellow-servants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told to their Lord all that was done. Then his Lord, after that he had called him, said to him, O you wicked servant, I forgave you all that debt, because you pleaded with me: should not you also have had compassion on your fellow-servant, even as I had pity on you? And his Lord was angry, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due to him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also to you, if you from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

    May God Bless us with His properties.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi John,

    That is a question that is impossible to answer with a simple yes, or no because there are far to many variables involved.
    Why Rose, you are not copping out on me are you? Let me rephrase the question, "Has any other book made a more significant contribution to the betterment of society that the Bible?".

    And now, on to the hard part of your response...
    In the verses below Yahweh commands the Hebrews to murder every man, woman, and child, then steal their land, houses full of good things, wells, vineyards, and olive trees. On top of murder, and stealing Yahweh explicitly tells the Hebrews to show NO MERCY to the inhabitants of the land (so much for loving your neighbor). Need I list more?
    Deut.6:1 Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:... 10) And it shall be, when the LORD thy God shall have brought thee into the land which he sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give thee great and goodly cities, which thou buildedst not, And houses full of all good things, which thou filledst not, and wells digged, which thou diggedst not, vineyards and olive trees, which thou plantedst not; when thou shalt have eaten and be full;

    Deut.7:1-2 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
    Before the flood, it appears that the Spirit of God abandoned man to man's corrupted nature. The result was catastrophic. Man became totally degenerate, so much so, that he no longer had any space in his thinking for good, his thoughts were evil continually and he filled the earth with violence. So here's the question... if the Genesis 6 account is true, what has changed in man?

    The point of that question is to illustrate, that, without the intervention of God, the results would be identical. Perhaps there is a limit to the quantity of exposure to heathen culture that will eventually contaminate those exposed. In other words, except God exterminate the cause, it would spread once more, thereby contaminating the entire population all over again.

    Now keep in mind, that God called out, unto Himself, a people. It really could have been any people, it just suited Him to make it Abraham's seed. So now God has this group of humans which He has bound Himself to, in an effort to keep them as pure as possible because He has a plan. Now, the plan depends on survival of the human race and the survival of the human race depends on God sticking with these stiff necked humans who are naturally attracted to self destructive behavior. In order for the plan to succeed, God must, at all costs, keep this group intact, and that means removing the never ending train of deadly obstacles in the path of this chosen group until the fullness of time. Once that point is reached, a new plan takes effect, and we know what that is now.

    If this process was the case, and God's purpose was to extend the human race to that appointed time, and by doing so He provides the everlasting solution to the problem of man's sin, what would be immoral about that?

    Seeing beyond this world is an essential factor in determining what constitutes a good and holy purpose. Inadequate information leaves margin for error in the same way limited vision misses the details of the big picture. To make sense of the tragic history of man, it is necessary to look beyond the here and now. Wouldn't you agree?

    Thank you for the apology, but just to let you know Richard also noticed your sarcasm, so it wasn't just me.
    It may not come across in my posts, but I really do respect you both. I admit to being a little sarcastic at times, but what fun would it be to not poke a little back and forth. In fact, why not all of us just get along and avoid the anger, frustration, prejudice, pride, boasting and demeaning comments (even though the old nature is tempted to at times eh)? Easy now, just a little poke before I close.

    No, I wasn't being sarcastic!

    Hope you have a nice day,

    Rose
    One last thing Rose, together, you and Richard are making a contribution to the thinking skills of many who visit this site. I see no harm in challenging biblical presuppositions. There may be a danger in calling out God to a duel in the sun, but even so, if His Grace is good enough for me, I'm certain that it is sufficient for you.

    His Best to you!

    John

  7. #27
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Good morning John,

    I'm glad you shared your "2 cents" with us.


    There's a lot more to be said. The passage you cite establishes the man over the woman and equates that relation to the submissive role that men should have under God:[INDENT]Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
    Nothing sexist. Submit does not mean subservient. It means the head will be held responsible if he ill-treated and did not love his wife when his wife has entrusted and respected him under his care and responsibility.

    Therefore, the man is set up as "God" over the woman. This is, by definition, sexist, and this teaching is repeated many times in Scripture:
    1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
    And Paul explicitly states that women should not teach or "usurp authority over men: -
    1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
    Paul here is linking back to the story in Genesis where the woman is blamed for all the sin in the world. His reference to the woman being "saved in childbearing" connects directly with the curse put upon Eve. So it is impossible to "explain away" these sexist teachings. They are inextricably entwined with the fundamental Biblical teachings about the nature of God and HIS relation to man in both the Old and New Testaments.
    What talking you? No one can be saved in childbearing except by believing God through faith through loving God with all your heart soul and might and loving your neighbor as yourself. Adam also suffered the curse not just Eve. Therefore the curse is put on both Adam and Eve which is why Paul said, "Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they(both of them) continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety". "Saved in childbearing" seems to mean that if Eve and Adam and their offsprings grew with righteous characters. This is well commented in a commentary:

    Robinson, Lexicon. Rosenmuller regards the words rendered "child-bearing" (τεκνογονία teknogonia), as synonymous with education, and supposes that the meaning is, that a woman, by the proper training of her children, can obtain salvation as well as her husband, and that her appropriate duty is not public teaching, but the training of her family. Wetstein supposes that it means "she shall be saved from the arts of impostors, and from the luxury and vice of the age, if, instead of wandering about, she remains at home, cultivates modesty, is subject to her husband, and engages carefully in the training of her children."

    It is one thing for God himself to execute people. I've never focused on that as a moral problem though there are some issues with it. The real problem is with God impersonating a brutal Bronze age tribal war god who goes about commanding his people to commit genocide and to show no mercy when invading their land to steal their belongings. Personally, I do not find the idea that those events may not have happened to be a satisfying solution. If we go that route, then why believe anything in the Bible?
    There is nothing wrong with destroying evil people under the commandment of God. Is it wrong for the Allied soldiers to kill the Nazis in WW2 under order from their Allied commanders?
    If the Bible is written by men as claimed by you and Rose, then might as well say why believed in men and their knowledge since they are also written by fallible men? What we think as immoral is human perception. Show me any passage in the Bible in which God Himself is Immoral. There is none only humans will do abominable and immoral things such as rapes, homosexuality, lies, steal etc.

    Should people lose faith in God of the Bible because of his immoral commands? I think the answer is obvious. Christians go about saying how we could have no morality at all if not for the Christian God but then in the same breath say that infanticide, genocide, and slavery are not immoral because God commanded or instituted such things. You can watch a Christian doing that the debate with Hector Avalos posted on this forum. When Christians say that it is impossible to judge God as evil they don't realize that they are also saying it is impossible to judge God as good. If "whatever the Bible says about God" is defined as "good" then the word "good" has no meaning. But we all know that the word "good" has meaning. That's the problem - the things said of God in the Bible contradict what we mean when we say "good." So insisting that God is good despite what the Bible says about him destroys the meaning of that word.
    Same as I ask, Should people lose faith in men since men are immoral? The reason is obvious. So are men good? Seeing that men can do all sorts of immoral and abominable things destroy the meaning of that word "good".

    No, it's not unreasonable. But if God "sets his own standards" then we cannot say that he is "good" or the word "good" will have lost all meaning.
    Same with men who may not even know for sure what is good and what is bad.

    There is nothing foolish in judging what a BOOK written by fallible humans says about God. If you reject what the Koran says about Allah, are you judging God? The problem is that you begin with the presumption that the Bible is accurate in all it says about God. I see no reason to make that presupposition, especially since it directly contradicts our most basic moral sensibilities.
    There can only be one Creator God. All Gods they prayed to is indirectly praying to the Creator God. We are not supposed to judge others, let God do the judgement.

    That's exactly what I used to say! The Bible contains everything the believer needs to believe, and everything the unbeliever needs to unbelieve. It was my attempt to deal with the many problems in the Bible. I thought that the Bible Wheel gave sufficient evidence for the presupposition that the Bible is "God's Word." But given the problems with what the Bible actually states, I don't feel that implication can stand. So now I'm mystified by how a design like the Bible Wheel could have gotten in the Bible, but that mystery is not sufficient to trump all the problems I see just as clearly in the book. I don't know what the solution will be, but I am quite sure that it won't involve going back to traditional Christianity since that view is entirely untenable as far as I can tell.
    If you did not believe in the Bible and Christianity in the first place, will your Biblewheel and its mystery be discovered? And now you are against them...How ungrateful!

    May God forgive us and our ungratefulness
    Last edited by CWH; 05-23-2012 at 03:46 PM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    Why Rose, you are not copping out on me are you? Let me rephrase the question, "Has any other book made a more significant contribution to the betterment of society that the Bible?".
    Hi John,

    The Bible has most definitely made a significant impact on society, but I'm not sure if one weighs the good and the bad caused by it's words if there would be any betterment. I'm thinking that because the Bible is held to be the word of God by many people, and it promotes a patriarchal ideology that is decreed to be God's order, women are forever condemned to be unequal with men. The Bible promotes male hegemony with men explicitly being God's representatives on earth and that can never be changed, consequently women have had a secondary status because of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    Before the flood, it appears that the Spirit of God abandoned man to man's corrupted nature. The result was catastrophic. Man became totally degenerate, so much so, that he no longer had any space in his thinking for good, his thoughts were evil continually and he filled the earth with violence. So here's the question... if the Genesis 6 account is true, what has changed in man?

    The point of that question is to illustrate, that, without the intervention of God, the results would be identical. Perhaps there is a limit to the quantity of exposure to heathen culture that will eventually contaminate those exposed. In other words, except God exterminate the cause, it would spread once more, thereby contaminating the entire population all over again.

    Now keep in mind, that God called out, unto Himself, a people. It really could have been any people, it just suited Him to make it Abraham's seed. So now God has this group of humans which He has bound Himself to, in an effort to keep them as pure as possible because He has a plan. Now, the plan depends on survival of the human race and the survival of the human race depends on God sticking with these stiff necked humans who are naturally attracted to self destructive behavior. In order for the plan to succeed, God must, at all costs, keep this group intact, and that means removing the never ending train of deadly obstacles in the path of this chosen group until the fullness of time. Once that point is reached, a new plan takes effect, and we know what that is now.

    If this process was the case, and God's purpose was to extend the human race to that appointed time, and by doing so He provides the everlasting solution to the problem of man's sin, what would be immoral about that?

    Seeing beyond this world is an essential factor in determining what constitutes a good and holy purpose. Inadequate information leaves margin for error in the same way limited vision misses the details of the big picture. To make sense of the tragic history of man, it is necessary to look beyond the here and now. Wouldn't you agree?
    According to the Bible, Yahweh is unable to solve the problem of sin that he created in the first place. First he wipes out life on the entire planet except for righteous Noah and his family and then the next thing you know sin is thriving all over the planet again. This narrative of killing sinners to try and wipe out sin happens over, and over again throughout the entire Bible, even after the sacrifice of Jesus. Then to make matters worse Yahweh gives commandments that say killing, and stealing is wrong, but turns around and commands that the Hebrews kill and steal...sounds pretty immoral to me.

    Since no human can see beyond this world, and all we have to go on is what someone wrote down in the Bible, then no human can ever know what is good and holy to God. What we do read in the Bible is contradictory and inconsistent, so all we are left with is human guesswork. I think the only solution is to leave the primitive thinking of the Bible behind and use our ever rising level of consciousness to make sure we don't repeat mans tragic history again. Any mindset that traps a person into a particular way of thinking that leaves no room for growth cannot be good for the evolution of mankind. The Bible locks peoples minds into one way of thinking closing off all other possibilities, which leaves women in a position of second class citizens as long as human life exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    It may not come across in my posts, but I really do respect you both. I admit to being a little sarcastic at times, but what fun would it be to not poke a little back and forth. In fact, why not all of us just get along and avoid the anger, frustration, prejudice, pride, boasting and demeaning comments (even though the old nature is tempted to at times eh)? Easy now, just a little poke before I close.



    One last thing Rose, together, you and Richard are making a contribution to the thinking skills of many who visit this site. I see no harm in challenging biblical presuppositions. There may be a danger in calling out God to a duel in the sun, but even so, if His Grace is good enough for me, I'm certain that it is sufficient for you.

    His Best to you!

    John
    I'm glad to see you're up for the challenge

    All the best to you too,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi John,

    The Bible has most definitely made a significant impact on society, but I'm not sure if one weighs the good and the bad caused by it's words if there would be any betterment. I'm thinking that because the Bible is held to be the word of God by many people, and it promotes a patriarchal ideology that is decreed to be God's order, women are forever condemned to be unequal with men. The Bible promotes male hegemony with men explicitly being God's representatives on earth and that can never be changed, consequently women have had a secondary status because of it.
    What's wrong with patriarchal ideology? What's wrong with male hegemony? Whether is it patriarchal or matriarchal it doesn't matter as long as they can run the society well, fairly and with no abuse of power. History has shown us that countries run by female head of state fare no better than countries run by male head of state. Googled whether matriarchy is better than patriarchy will shows that the majority says that matriarchy is no better than patriarchy:

    http://www.google.com.sg/search?hl=e....0.hGESukIHWvI

    According to the Bible, Yahweh is unable to solve the problem of sin that he created in the first place. First he wipes out life on the entire planet except for righteous Noah and his family and then the next thing you know sin is thriving all over the planet again. This narrative of killing sinners to try and wipe out sin happens over, and over again throughout the entire Bible, even after the sacrifice of Jesus. Then to make matters worse Yahweh gives commandments that say killing, and stealing is wrong, but turns around and commands that the Hebrews kill and steal...sounds pretty immoral to me.
    Same as I would say that we humans cannot solve the problem of germs and pests, kill them and they will come back again soon. What we are doing is thus not to kill the germs and pests entirely as it is impossible but to reduce it's numbers significantly so that there is less troubles from these germs and pests.Same as what Yahweh was doing. At the same time he wanted humans to grow so that he can "harvest" large numbers of righteous souls whilst discarding unrighteous souls. Its like waiting for the pests to grow to a certain large numbers before wiping them off whilst saving the "good" remnant pests.

    Since no human can see beyond this world, and all we have to go on is what someone wrote down in the Bible, then no human can ever know what is good and holy to God. What we do read in the Bible is contradictory and inconsistent, so all we are left with is human guesswork. I think the only solution is to leave the primitive thinking of the Bible behind and use our ever rising level of consciousness to make sure we don't repeat mans tragic history again. Any mindset that traps a person into a particular way of thinking that leaves no room for growth cannot be good for the evolution of mankind. The Bible locks peoples minds into one way of thinking closing off all other possibilities, which leaves women in a position of second class citizens as long as human life exists.
    One of the purpose why the Bible seems contrary and confusing is that Yahweh wants us to study the Bible diligently, leaving no stones unturned to find out the truth. It's like what's the point of giving us a complete physics book with all the facts and questions and answers answered, will people be motivated to do research to further the advancement of physics? The solution to understand God is to further our study with fervent biblical research rather than give up and becomes atheists. Have constant faith that God is doing for good of his own people, one day everything will be known and answered. The godly and righteous have nothing to fear.


    God Blessings to all.
    Last edited by CWH; 05-23-2012 at 08:46 PM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

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