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  1. #11
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    What male bias? What sexism in the Bible?

    http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sexism.html

    Sexism in the Bible: Is Christianity Sexist?
    by Rich Deem

    Introduction
    Subjugation of Women?
    Many churches treat women as second-class citizens, with few, if any women allowed to hold positions of authority. Does Christianity officially support the subjugation of women? What does the Bible say about these issues?

    Rich Deem
    The claim is often made that the Bible is sexist and that Christianity demeans women and makes them into second class citizens. While I do agree that sexism exists in Christian churches and that portions of scripture have been used to perpetuate sexism, the Bible does not condone discrimination in any manner. Men have cited verses about submission of women to keep believing women "in their place." Get out your Bibles and let's see what the Bible really says about women, submission, and equality.

    Created in the image of God
    Most people know that the Bible says God created man in His own image. However, many do not know that "man" includes both males and females. Both males and females are created in the image of God:

    And God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. (Genesis 1:27)1

    This verse implies that the "image of God" encompasses traits found in both males and females and that the physical sexual differences between the sexes are not important characteristics in terms of how mankind was created in God's image.

    Women as just helpers?
    The story of women in the Bible begins in Genesis 2, where God says that it is not good that man should be alone.2 So God made a woman as a "helper suitable for him." Some would say that making woman as a "helper" is sexist. The Hebrew word translated "helper" is ezer, which occurs 21 times in the Old Testament. In 2 instances in Genesis, ezer refers to the woman Eve. In 16 of the other 19 instances the word is used to describe God Himself!3 Obviously, the term cannot be said to represent some sort of subservient role. An interesting sidelight to the phrase "helper suitable for him" is that the translation "suitable" is not the most common translation for the Hebrew word. In fact, the most common translation is "opposite." Anyone who is married knows that their spouse is often completely opposite from themselves.

    Women in the Bible - not just mommies
    The women described in the Bible are not always homemakers and mothers. Obviously, the biological function of women is to produce and care for children. However, Deborah was both a judge and leader of Israel.4 Other women were involved in ridding Israel of her enemies.5 Quite a number of women are described as being prophetesses.6 Other women in the Bible were involved in teaching the Word of God7 or serving as deaconesses in the early Christian church.8

    There are a number of other very strong women of faith described in the Bible. In fact, two books of the Bible are specifically about women, as indicated by their titles, "Ruth" and "Esther." Ruth is the story of the compassion and redemption of the gentile woman, Ruth. Naomi, Ruth's mother-in-law, fell into the unfortunate circumstances of losing both her husband and her two sons, one of whom was Ruth's husband. With nobody to provide for her and Naomi being "too old" to be remarried, she chose to go to Israel, where the laws and traditions required the Israelites to take care of widows, even if they were strangers. One of Naomi's daughter-in-laws chose to stay in the land in order to find another husband. But Ruth chose to go with her mother-in-law, even though this meant that she would probably never be married. However, Ruth was "redeemed" by Boaz, who married her despite the fact that she was a gentile. The line of Ruth and Boaz led directly to King David, and, of course, eventually to the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth.

    The book of Esther is the story of the rise of a young Jewish woman who found favor9 in the eyes of the Persian king, Ahasuerus (Xerxes), and became the queen of Persia. The former queen, Vashti, had refused to appear before the court when called by the king, and had been removed from the royal position. The king's prime minister, Haman hated the Jews and sought to destroy all of them through a plot of getting the king to unsuspectingly sign a decree calling for their execution. However, through the actions of the righteous Jew Mordecai, and the bravery of Esther in confronting the king, the decree was revoked and the conspirator, Haman, hanged. The Bible says that Esther had "come to royal position for such a time as this"10 - destined by God to save the Jews.

    Other strong women of the Bible included Sarah, the wife of Abraham, who was preserved by the Lord despite the cowardly actions of Abraham in saying that she was his sister,11 and thus allowing her to enter into the courts of two kings (as a potential wife). Hannah is another example of a woman who had a strong spiritual walk.12 She was a woman of prayer and faith. Although she was childless for years, she had faith in God and her prayers were answered in giving birth to her son Samuel. She promised to give him back to the Lord, which she did by taking him to the priest as soon as he was weaned. Probably the strongest woman in the New Testament was Mary, the mother of Jesus. When the angel Gabriel told her she was to give birth to a son although a virgin, her response was, "May it be to me as you have said." A famous prayer of praise from Mary is recorded in the book of Luke.13

    The ideal biblical wife
    The book of Proverbs (which records the wisdom of Solomon) describes the ideal wife in its last chapter.14 She is, by no means, a weak woman who grovels at the feet of her husband. Instead, she takes charge over the care and needs of her family, and, in addition, the needs of the poor. She also manages her servants. In addition, she maintains her own business and from her own earnings buys land and plants vineyards. She is described as being wise, strong, and dignified, yet able to laugh. She is praised by her husband and children, who appreciate her hard work and commitment.

    How Jesus treated women
    When we look at how Jesus treated women, we discover the difference between the way God wants men to treat women and the way they were (and still are) treated by men in societies. The woman at the well is a prime example. When Jesus asked her for a drink, her first reaction was disbelief that he would even talk to her.15 When Jesus' disciples came back, they were surprised that He was talking to a woman.16 Jewish customs had become so legalistic that men (and especially rabbis) did not associate with women who were not their wives. Even now, orthodox Jewish men and women are prohibited from touching members of the opposite sex.17

    In contrast, Jesus touched many women and allowed them to touch Him as He healed them.18 Although this was in direct opposition to the customs of the time, it reveals the nature of the personal God who directly touches people's lives. Jesus was compassionate to sinners and ministered to prostitutes and adulteresses. In a well-known example, some of the religious leaders brought a woman to Jesus who was "caught in the act of adultery." Obviously, the man involved in the adultery would have been there also, but they didn't bring him. As Jesus alluded to their own sins, the woman's accusers left. Jesus did not condemn the woman, but admonished her to leave her life of sin.19

    Although all of Jesus' twelve disciples were men (there is good reason for this20), there were a number of women who were loyal followers and who ministered to Him and His disciples.21 The gospels record that the women were the first to hear the news of Jesus' resurrection from the angels22 and the first to see Him23 (since the men had gone into hiding or back to their original jobs after Jesus was crucified). In contrast to the gentleness and kindness with which Jesus treated women, He reserved His more scathing comments for the arrogant male religious leaders of His time. These He labeled as "serpents," "brood of vipers," and "whitewashed tombs."24

    That "S" word - biblical submission
    Many women don't like what the Bible says because it calls wives to "submit to their husbands."25 However, submission is not limited to wives submitting to their husbands. We are told to submit to God,26 governmental authorities,27 our boss,28 and leaders in the church.29 We are also told to submit to one another, which includes men submitting women and vice versa.30 God is a God of order. In a sinful world, submission to those in authority is the only way to maintain order. What form does this submission to authority take? In every instance where submission is called for wives, it is conditioned with the phrase "as to the Lord" or some other reference to Jesus Christ. The submission takes on the form of being in the will of God. If the husband asks the wife to do something outside the will of Christ, she is under no obligation to follow him. Accompanying each command for wives to submit to their husbands is the command for the husband to love his wife.31 In the book of Ephesians, this love is to be "just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her." Such a love is not one that dominates and subjugates another person, but a self-sacrificing love that will give up its own life for another's.

    The Christian Church is female!
    This is going to come to a shock to most non-Christians (and maybe even some Christians), but God's people are referred to as female, not male. In the Old Testament, God's people are the "daughters of Zion."32 The Church or body of Christ (including us men) is referred to as the "bride" of Christ33 and God is said to be our "husband."34 Whenever referred to by sex, the Church is described as "she" or "her."35 In addition, the Greek word for church is a feminine noun.36

    Conclusion
    The essence of biblical equality can be summed up in Paul's letter to the Galatians:

    There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28)37

    Even though the world does not treat humans as equals, as members of the body of Christ, all are equal spiritually in the eyes of Jesus. In fact, those who exalt themselves (which includes many men) will be humbled and those who serve others (which characterize many women I know) will be exalted to a higher status in the kingdom of heaven.38 It seems likely that heaven will be a place that will be run by caring mothers and women who will have served others while living on earth.

    Objections
    On "headship" - This was probably more of a concession to culture than anything else. In first century Israel, women didn't have many rights or much opportunity for independence, so the husband was a sort of "covering" for her. Since he was legally and morally responsible for pretty much everything his wife did (Numbers 30:6-16), it made sense that she would defer to him in domestic matters. Besides, submission doesn't mean becoming a doormat - it means voluntarily laying aside one's own rights for the sake of the other, and husbands are instructed to love their wives sacrificially as well: "just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her." (Ephesians 5:25)31

    On "keeping silent in church" - Women are more verbal than men, and when they get together, they tend to move from subject to subject. In the synagogues, the women were segregated from the men. If they had any questions on the worship or the teachings, they would have had to shout them over to the men, or discuss them among themselves, which would have resulted in an inability to maintain order. In addition, Paul emphasizes that his rules for church are given so that everything would be "done in a fitting and orderly way." (1 Corinthians 14:40)39 Disorderly communication, such as uninterrupted speaking in tongues, was also prohibited.40

    On "not being permitted to teach" - Some interpret this passage to mean that women should never teach in the assembled church. However, commentators point out that Paul did not forbid women from ever teaching. Paul's commended co-worker, Priscilla, taught Apollos, the great preacher (Acts 18:24-26).41 In addition, Paul frequently mentioned other women who held positions of authority in the church. Phoebe worked in the church (Romans 16:1).8 Mary, Tryphena, and Tryphosa were the Lord's workers (Romans 16:6, 12).8 Paul was very likely prohibiting the Ephesian women, not all women, from teaching. To understand these verses (Ephesians 2:9-15), we must understand the situation in which Paul and Timothy worked. In first-century Jewish culture, women were not allowed to study. When Paul said that women should learn in quietness and full submission, he was offering them an amazing new opportunity. Paul did not want the Ephesian women to teach because they didn't yet have enough knowledge or experience. The Ephesian church had a particular problem with false teachers. Evidently, the women were especially susceptible to the false teachings (2 Timothy 3:1-9), because they did not yet have enough Biblical knowledge to discern the truth. In addition, some women were apparently flaunting their new-found Christian freedom by wearing inappropriate clothing (1 Timothy 2:9). Paul was telling Timothy not to put anyone (in this case, women) into a position of leadership who was not yet mature in the faith (1 Timothy 3:6). The same principle applies to churches today.



    God Bless Male and Female equally.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    What male bias? What sexism in the Bible?

    http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sexism.html

    Sexism in the Bible: Is Christianity Sexist?
    by Rich Deem

    Introduction
    Subjugation of Women?
    Many churches treat women as second-class citizens, with few, if any women allowed to hold positions of authority. Does Christianity officially support the subjugation of women? What does the Bible say about these issues?

    Rich Deem
    The claim is often made that the Bible is sexist and that Christianity demeans women and makes them into second class citizens. While I do agree that sexism exists in Christian churches and that portions of scripture have been used to perpetuate sexism, the Bible does not condone discrimination in any manner. Men have cited verses about submission of women to keep believing women "in their place." Get out your Bibles and let's see what the Bible really says about women, submission, and equality.

    Created in the image of God
    Most people know that the Bible says God created man in His own image. However, many do not know that "man" includes both males and females. Both males and females are created in the image of God:

    And God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. (Genesis 1:27)1

    This verse implies that the "image of God" encompasses traits found in both males and females and that the physical sexual differences between the sexes are not important characteristics in terms of how mankind was created in God's image.
    I'm really glad you posted this article Cheow. His attempt to explain away the sexism of the Bible only makes it all the more obvious.

    He is correct that Genesis 1:27 "implies that the "image of God" encompasses traits found in both males and females" but that that says nothing about the sexism in the Bible because the Bible goes on to present God using ONLY the male pronoun "he" and explicitly states that men are the "head" over women in the same way as Christ is "head" over the man, and God is "head" over Christ. It is an explicit statement of male domination over women, and it is based in the fundamental Biblical theology. There's no way out of this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post

    Women as just helpers?
    The story of women in the Bible begins in Genesis 2, where God says that it is not good that man should be alone.2 So God made a woman as a "helper suitable for him." Some would say that making woman as a "helper" is sexist. The Hebrew word translated "helper" is ezer, which occurs 21 times in the Old Testament. In 2 instances in Genesis, ezer refers to the woman Eve. In 16 of the other 19 instances the word is used to describe God Himself!3 Obviously, the term cannot be said to represent some sort of subservient role. An interesting sidelight to the phrase "helper suitable for him" is that the translation "suitable" is not the most common translation for the Hebrew word. In fact, the most common translation is "opposite." Anyone who is married knows that their spouse is often completely opposite from themselves.
    Rich Deem's analysis of "ezer" is flawed. The fact that God is called "helper" does not tell us anything about the meaning of that word. As with everything, the meaning depends upon context, and in the context of Genesis 2 it implies that Eve was to help Adam. It says nothing about any equality between the two. The male is presented as the primary creation of God, the woman as a secondary helper. This is totally sexist.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Women in the Bible - not just mommies
    The women described in the Bible are not always homemakers and mothers. Obviously, the biological function of women is to produce and care for children. However, Deborah was both a judge and leader of Israel.4 Other women were involved in ridding Israel of her enemies.5 Quite a number of women are described as being prophetesses.6 Other women in the Bible were involved in teaching the Word of God7 or serving as deaconesses in the early Christian church.8
    A few examples of "strong women" says nothing about the fact that the Bible is generally sexist.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    The ideal biblical wife
    The book of Proverbs (which records the wisdom of Solomon) describes the ideal wife in its last chapter.14 She is, by no means, a weak woman who grovels at the feet of her husband. Instead, she takes charge over the care and needs of her family, and, in addition, the needs of the poor. She also manages her servants. In addition, she maintains her own business and from her own earnings buys land and plants vineyards. She is described as being wise, strong, and dignified, yet able to laugh. She is praised by her husband and children, who appreciate her hard work and commitment.
    The book of Proverbs was written from an entirely male perspective. It was explicitly written from a father (male) to a son (male) and it focused largely on the evils that women could cause:

    "Better to live on a corner of the roof than share a house with a quarrelsome wife." Proverbs 25:24

    Where's the equality? Why are there no statements about how bad it was for women to live with an abusive husband? And for that matter, there's nothing in the book that is addressed to women at all! The book was written by males for males, and in both Christianity and Judaism, women generally have never been encouraged to even study Scripture.

    Indeed, the whole Bible written by males for males. Even the parts directly dictated by God, such as the Tenth Commandment, doesn't apply to women at all and it classes women amongst the other things owned by a man:
    Exodus 20:17 You shall not covet your neighbor's house (property); you shall not covet your neighbor's wife (property), nor his male servant (property), nor his female servant (property), nor his ox (property), nor his donkey (property), nor anything that is your neighbor's (property).
    Once your eyes are opened, you will see sexism on every page of the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    How Jesus treated women
    When we look at how Jesus treated women, we discover the difference between the way God wants men to treat women and the way they were (and still are) treated by men in societies. The woman at the well is a prime example. When Jesus asked her for a drink, her first reaction was disbelief that he would even talk to her.15 When Jesus' disciples came back, they were surprised that He was talking to a woman.16 Jewish customs had become so legalistic that men (and especially rabbis) did not associate with women who were not their wives. Even now, orthodox Jewish men and women are prohibited from touching members of the opposite sex.17

    In contrast, Jesus touched many women and allowed them to touch Him as He healed them.18 Although this was in direct opposition to the customs of the time, it reveals the nature of the personal God who directly touches people's lives. Jesus was compassionate to sinners and ministered to prostitutes and adulteresses. In a well-known example, some of the religious leaders brought a woman to Jesus who was "caught in the act of adultery." Obviously, the man involved in the adultery would have been there also, but they didn't bring him. As Jesus alluded to their own sins, the woman's accusers left. Jesus did not condemn the woman, but admonished her to leave her life of sin.19
    Rich Deem is correct that Jesus treated women better than "men in society" but that is irrelevant because the issue he is supposed to be addressing is the sexism in the Bible. In reality, he is unwittingly pitting Christ of the NT against Yahweh of the OT and saying that Jesus is better. He is exacerbating, rather than fixing, the problem when he says "Even now, orthodox Jewish men and women are prohibited from touching members of the opposite sex." If the Bible were not sexist, why do we see thousands of years of sexism practiced by those who base their beliefs on the Bible?

    Deem does not solve the problem when he says that Christ "reveals the nature of the personal God" because we already have a revelation of the nature of the personal God who established sexism in the Bible. What Christ really revealed was that his morals were different than those of Yahweh revealed in the OT.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post

    That "S" word - biblical submission
    Many women don't like what the Bible says because it calls wives to "submit to their husbands."25 However, submission is not limited to wives submitting to their husbands. We are told to submit to God,26 governmental authorities,27 our boss,28 and leaders in the church.29 We are also told to submit to one another, which includes men submitting women and vice versa.30 God is a God of order. In a sinful world, submission to those in authority is the only way to maintain order. What form does this submission to authority take? In every instance where submission is called for wives, it is conditioned with the phrase "as to the Lord" or some other reference to Jesus Christ. The submission takes on the form of being in the will of God. If the husband asks the wife to do something outside the will of Christ, she is under no obligation to follow him. Accompanying each command for wives to submit to their husbands is the command for the husband to love his wife.31 In the book of Ephesians, this love is to be "just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her." Such a love is not one that dominates and subjugates another person, but a self-sacrificing love that will give up its own life for another's.
    Again, Rich Deem diverts the read from what the text actually states. When the women is told to submit to her husband "as unto the Lord" it goes on to explain that the man is the HEAD OVER THE WOMAN just like Christ is the head over man. This is totally sexist, and it is based on the fundamental Biblical teaching about the nature of God and man. So there is no way out of this one. That's why truly fundamentalist Christians are often unabashedly sexist, as the preaching man in the video in the thread Defending Misogyny in the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    The Christian Church is female!
    This is going to come to a shock to most non-Christians (and maybe even some Christians), but God's people are referred to as female, not male. In the Old Testament, God's people are the "daughters of Zion."32 The Church or body of Christ (including us men) is referred to as the "bride" of Christ33 and God is said to be our "husband."34 Whenever referred to by sex, the Church is described as "she" or "her."35 In addition, the Greek word for church is a feminine noun.36
    This fact that the church is likened to a woman and God her husband shows that sexism saturates the Bible in a fundamental and irredeemable way. God himself is presented as male and women are presented as the cause of all the evil in the world. Women are to men as men are to God. Totally and absolutely submissive to the sovereign male ruler.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Conclusion
    The essence of biblical equality can be summed up in Paul's letter to the Galatians:

    There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28)37
    It never ceases to amaze me when people present this verse as proof that the Bible is not sexist. Are slaves free from their earthly masters just because they are believers? No. And neither are women free from being enslaved as second class citizens merely because they are believers. This verse says nothing about the sexism in the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Objections
    On "headship" - This was probably more of a concession to culture than anything else. In first century Israel, women didn't have many rights or much opportunity for independence, so the husband was a sort of "covering" for her. Since he was legally and morally responsible for pretty much everything his wife did (Numbers 30:6-16), it made sense that she would defer to him in domestic matters. Besides, submission doesn't mean becoming a doormat - it means voluntarily laying aside one's own rights for the sake of the other, and husbands are instructed to love their wives sacrificially as well: "just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her." (Ephesians 5:25)31
    Deem failed to address the obvious fact that Scripture says men are the head over women in the same way that Christ is head over men. It teaches that women are uniquely submitted to men. There is no symmetry between men and women at all in these teachings.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    On "keeping silent in church" - Women are more verbal than men, and when they get together, they tend to move from subject to subject. In the synagogues, the women were segregated from the men. If they had any questions on the worship or the teachings, they would have had to shout them over to the men, or discuss them among themselves, which would have resulted in an inability to maintain order. In addition, Paul emphasizes that his rules for church are given so that everything would be "done in a fitting and orderly way." (1 Corinthians 14:40)39 Disorderly communication, such as uninterrupted speaking in tongues, was also prohibited.40

    On "not being permitted to teach" - Some interpret this passage to mean that women should never teach in the assembled church. However, commentators point out that Paul did not forbid women from ever teaching. Paul's commended co-worker, Priscilla, taught Apollos, the great preacher (Acts 18:24-26).41 In addition, Paul frequently mentioned other women who held positions of authority in the church. Phoebe worked in the church (Romans 16:1).8 Mary, Tryphena, and Tryphosa were the Lord's workers (Romans 16:6, 12).8 Paul was very likely prohibiting the Ephesian women, not all women, from teaching. To understand these verses (Ephesians 2:9-15), we must understand the situation in which Paul and Timothy worked. In first-century Jewish culture, women were not allowed to study. When Paul said that women should learn in quietness and full submission, he was offering them an amazing new opportunity. Paul did not want the Ephesian women to teach because they didn't yet have enough knowledge or experience. The Ephesian church had a particular problem with false teachers. Evidently, the women were especially susceptible to the false teachings (2 Timothy 3:1-9), because they did not yet have enough Biblical knowledge to discern the truth. In addition, some women were apparently flaunting their new-found Christian freedom by wearing inappropriate clothing (1 Timothy 2:9). Paul was telling Timothy not to put anyone (in this case, women) into a position of leadership who was not yet mature in the faith (1 Timothy 3:6). The same principle applies to churches today.
    Again, Deem fails to address what the Bible actually teaches. Let's remind him about what's really in the book he thinks he is defending:
    1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
    Paul was not talking about women being "more verbal than men." He was talking about women teaching and USURPING AUTHORITY over the man, who is supposed to be the HEAD that DOMINATES the woman. And again, he bases his argument on the sexism taught in Genesis, that Adam was the primary creation of God, and Eve was the one who was deceived, and suffered the pain of childbearing as punishment. Paul bases his sexist teachings on the BIBLE.

    Looking at the reasons Paul gave, we see that he did not allow a woman to teach because it was the first woman who was deceived. Paul refused to let women teach because they are prone to deception. It's very plain and obvious.

    Thanks again for sharing this article. It only strengthens my case.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  3. #13
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    I'm really glad you posted this article Cheow. His attempt to explain away the sexism of the Bible only makes it all the more obvious.

    He is correct that Genesis 1:27 "implies that the "image of God" encompasses traits found in both males and females" but that that says nothing about the sexism in the Bible because the Bible goes on to present God using ONLY the male pronoun "he" and explicitly states that men are the "head" over women in the same way as Christ is "head" over the man, and God is "head" over Christ. It is an explicit statement of male domination over women, and it is based in the fundamental Biblical theology. There's no way out of this one.
    Head over women, Adam rule over Eve doe not mean sexist at all. The head or rule is not the oppressive type that we imagine. Show me anything in Genesis that proved that Adam oppressed Eve by being the head or ruler. Nothing! And if there is no proof my stand is confirmed that there is nothing sexist in the relation between Adam and Eve. President Obama governs USA does not mean he oppressed the citizens of USA. Therefore, rule is not necessary the oppressive rule. Why do people always think that rule over somebody is oppressive?

    Rich Deem's analysis of "ezer" is flawed. The fact that God is called "helper" does not tell us anything about the meaning of that word. As with everything, the meaning depends upon context, and in the context of Genesis 2 it implies that Eve was to help Adam. It says nothing about any equality between the two. The male is presented as the primary creation of God, the woman as a secondary helper. This is totally sexist.
    Again that conception of helper being secondary is flawed. A boss may help his employees to complete a task does not mean he is secondary. If I help someone in need does not mean I am secondary or inferior. The reason why Eve is a helper to Adam is clearly explained in the Bible and that is so that Adam can have a companion to relate to; all other animals were not suitable to be Adam's companion. Therefore, helper actually means companion.

    A few examples of "strong women" says nothing about the fact that the Bible is generally sexist.
    There are many strong female wrestlers and male wrestlers, does that mean they are sexists? Strength has nothing to do with sexism perhaps sex appeal for the men as desired by the women.

    The book of Proverbs was written from an entirely male perspective. It was explicitly written from a father (male) to a son (male) and it focused largely on the evils that women could cause:

    "Better to live on a corner of the roof than share a house with a quarrelsome wife." Proverbs 25:24
    There is no proof that Proverbs was written from father to son. If not, why does it praises woman? There are also many proverbs in Proverbs that can be applied to daughters and everyone as well. Even if it is written from father to son, does not mean it cannot be applied indirectly to daughter. If you tell your son, "son, please do not steal" does not mean it cannot indirectly apply to your daughter.

    Where's the equality? Why are there no statements about how bad it was for women to live with an abusive husband? And for that matter, there's nothing in the book that is addressed to women at all! The book was written by males for males, and in both Christianity and Judaism, women generally have never been encouraged to even study Scripture.
    What male bias? and what do you mean that book of Proverbs does not address to women? When is the last time you read Proverbs?

    Indeed, the whole Bible written by males for males. Even the parts directly dictated by God, such as the Tenth Commandment, doesn't apply to women at all and it classes women amongst the other things owned by a man:
    Exodus 20:17 You shall not covet your neighbor's house (property); you shall not covet your neighbor's wife (property), nor his male servant (property), nor his female servant (property), nor his ox (property), nor his donkey (property), nor anything that is your neighbor's (property).
    If you lust after someone's wife is that sexist? That commandment has nothing to do with treating woman as property but rather as a responsibility. It means you are not to covet things that are not under your responsibility....maids, wife, ox etc.

    Once your eyes are opened, you will see sexism on every page of the Bible.
    There are nothing sexism in the Bible. However some evil people in olden times misinterpreted it as male authority and abused that authority to impose oppression to women. We saw that in history in which leaders abused authority given to them and became tyrant e.g. Hitler, etc.

    Rich Deem is correct that Jesus treated women better than "men in society" but that is irrelevant because the issue he is supposed to be addressing is the sexism in the Bible. In reality, he is unwittingly pitting Christ of the NT against Yahweh of the OT and saying that Jesus is better. He is exacerbating, rather than fixing, the problem when he says "Even now, orthodox Jewish men and women are prohibited from touching members of the opposite sex." If the Bible were not sexist, why do we see thousands of years of sexism practiced by those who base their beliefs on the Bible?
    Such culture in which it is not appropriate for opposite sex to touch each other happens in every culture regardless of religion for thousands of years; it does not just apply to Christianity. Asians are rather conservative and it is still not appropriate for the opposite sex to touch each other in public although such trend is getter more acceptable. From what I do know from my Chinese ancestors is that such tradition was imposed to prevent abuse which will lead to molestations, rapes, adultery etc. It's a simple fact that when a male touch a female stranger, and the female stranger do not reject it, it may imply to him that the female "wants it or allows it". That applies to western culture as well, no one will permit a male to touch his wife's "sensitive" parts without his or her permission.

    Deem does not solve the problem when he says that Christ "reveals the nature of the personal God" because we already have a revelation of the nature of the personal God who established sexism in the Bible. What Christ really revealed was that his morals were different than those of Yahweh revealed in the OT.
    Nothing to do with Yahweh's moral but men's tradition which I have already explained.

    Again, Rich Deem diverts the read from what the text actually states. When the women is told to submit to her husband "as unto the Lord" it goes on to explain that the man is the HEAD OVER THE WOMAN just like Christ is the head over man. This is totally sexist, and it is based on the fundamental Biblical teaching about the nature of God and man. So there is no way out of this one. That's why truly fundamentalist Christians are often unabashedly sexist, as the preaching man in the video in the thread Defending Misogyny in the Bible.
    Again! why must submission be seen as oppressive. If I submit my life to God does not mean God can be oppressive to me. It simply means I trust and respect God as my authoritative figure. Same as if I submit myself to the medical treatments of my doctors. What happens if a husband is ill with cancer or stroke and have to be looked after by his wife? who then is the authoritative figure? Submission is not necessarily compulsory.

    This fact that the church is likened to a woman and God her husband shows that sexism saturates the Bible in a fundamental and irredeemable way. God himself is presented as male and women are presented as the cause of all the evil in the world. Women are to men as men are to God. Totally and absolutely submissive to the sovereign male ruler.
    What? This is absurd. Jesus is God and is a male and presented female as inferior does not cause all the evil in the world. The reason why God was presented as husband and the church as wife is so that there is continuous companionship and relationship between the two just like Eve was a companion to Adam. Nothing sexist. The evil was caused by evil men who deemed themselves as dominant over women and abused it. Abuse is the word. There is nothing wrong with being superior or authoritative as long as one don't abused it. Just like a boss or leader who is consider the superior and he will be consider a good boss or leader if he does not abused his authority.

    It never ceases to amaze me when people present this verse as proof that the Bible is not sexist. Are slaves free from their earthly masters just because they are believers? No. And neither are women free from being enslaved as second class citizens merely because they are believers. This verse says nothing about the sexism in the Bible.
    Again, is slavery always oppressive? We are considered "slaves" to our boss if our boss abused his authority. Abuse is the word.

    Deem failed to address the obvious fact that Scripture says men are the head over women in the same way that Christ is head over men. It teaches that women are uniquely submitted to men. There is no symmetry between men and women at all in these teachings.
    Again, I see your views of submission and head as oppression. Tell me why must it be view as such? Is submission and head always wrong and oppressive? It is wrong and oppressive if the authority given is abused.

    Again, Deem fails to address what the Bible actually teaches. Let's remind him about what's really in the book he thinks he is defending:
    1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
    Paul was not talking about women being "more verbal than men." He was talking about women teaching and USURPING AUTHORITY over the man, who is supposed to be the HEAD that DOMINATES the woman. And again, he bases his argument on the sexism taught in Genesis, that Adam was the primary creation of God, and Eve was the one who was deceived, and suffered the pain of childbearing as punishment. Paul bases his sexist teachings on the BIBLE.
    Paul may be saying his own opinion for we do know that females were allowed to preach in his days. Eve was punished with severe pain in child birth which only lasted a short time. Adam is punished with toil and hardship under the sun which lasted a much longer duration. As such the punishment to both Adam and Eve is fair and equal.

    Looking at the reasons Paul gave, we see that he did not allow a woman to teach because it was the first woman who was deceived. Paul refused to let women teach because they are prone to deception. It's very plain and obvious.
    I believe Paul was conservative and preferred that women not to preach. The study of the scriptures were usually done by men and he felt that it is not appropriate for women to do so. And besides most women of his time were not well educated and thus may misinterpret the laws and teachings of the Bible due to lack of understandings.

    Thanks again for sharing this article. It only strengthens my case.
    Thanks also, it strengthens my case that there is nothing sexist in the Bible only that evil men misinterpreted and abused their authority over females.

    God Bless males and females equally.
    Last edited by CWH; 05-19-2012 at 08:02 PM.
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    Sexism in the Bible: Part 2

    Sexism in the Bible: Part 2


    Anyone who has read the Bible knows it is overflowing with sexism, but what I would like to focus on in this article is the origins of biblical sexism. What I mean by origins is, who introduced sexism in the Bible, and why is it such a fundemental property of Scripture? To find the answer to those questions, we must begin in the second chapter of Genesis; the book of beginnings.

    Everyone who is familiar with the story of Adam and Eve knows that the God of the Bible creates Adam from the dust of the ground and places him in a garden paradise. But, a problem soon arises when Adam cannot find a helpmate from all the animals he is told by God to name. The solution to this problem is given by God himself who then creates woman from man and for man, setting the stage for gender imbalance that continues throughout the entire Bible. Now, I’m sure if Genesis, chapter one had been used as the foundation of male/female relations the biblical story would have had an entirely different outcome, but alas that is not the case.

    Gen.1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    After the biblegod introduces the idea of gender inequality in chapter two, by creating the female in a different fashion than the male and creating her for the specific purpose of being a helper instead of an equal, the sexism only gets worse in chapter three. As punishment for Adam and Eve’s disobedience, the biblegod introduces the idea of enmity between the man and woman by cursing the woman with male domination (telling the woman that the man will rule over her). Most thinking people would immediately react to this curse by stating “where is the justice in this punishment?” Not only is the biblegod introducing the idea of one gender being superior to the other, but he has completely destroyed any sense of justice in “the punishment fitting the crime”.

    From this point on things take a turn going from bad to worse, women become the property of men; they are owned by the father and sold to the husband. Their value is half that of a man and they are denied equal human rights. Now, the reality of the situation is that what the biblical authors were recording was no more than the customs and laws of their societies at the time the Bible was written, so of course the gods they invent are going to mirror their values at the time. The point that I am trying to make in this article is that biblically speaking the idea of sexism was introduced and promoted by the biblegod, and not some misinterpretation of modern translators. The Bible clearly and explicitly gives credit to its god for denying basic human rights to women based on gender. In the Bible women DO NOT have control over their own bodies, but rather that control has been given to men by its god, Yahweh. This is the reason the problem of biblical sexism can never be resolved, because it is at the very core of Yahweh’s nature which is male supremacy.


    Rose
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  5. #15
    Rose wrote,

    Everyone who is familiar with the story of Adam and Eve knows that the God of the Bible creates Adam from the dust of the ground and places him in a garden paradise. But, a problem soon arises when Adam cannot find a helpmate from all the animals he is told by God to name. The solution to this problem is given by God himself who then creates woman from man and for man, setting the stage for gender imbalance that continues throughout the entire Bible.
    Rose you are distorting the story, God DID NOT creates woman from man and for man, to set the stage for a gender imbalance. He created “them” equal and to be “as one” in mind thought and action as seen in Gen. 2:24, “they shall be one flesh” ie. To mean equal in all ways. This is clearly told us by the Lord in Gen. 1:26-27:

    “And God said, Let us make man (male and female) in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”


    This is the Word, will and command of God in Gen. 1:26-27, that they be “equal” not one above another in dominion of all things. There is no hint whatsoever of God “setting the stage for a gender imbalance” in this passage, that is purely your speculation.
    After the biblegod introduces the idea of gender inequality in chapter two, by creating the female in a different fashion than the male and creating her for the specific purpose of being a helper instead of an equal, the sexism only gets worse in chapter three.
    You continue to distort the story, by saying he created them in a different fashion and as a helper not an equal; this is again a distortion of scripture and pure speculation. Gen. 1:26-27 lets us know certain details-that “man,” male and female were created in the image of God-and “they” were to have dominion equally over all things of the earth. Chapter 2 tells us further details of “how” God created “them,” ie Adam and Eve, and they shall be “one flesh,” to mean equal in all ways (Gen. 2:24). You are distorting and inferring “sexism” into the passages where there is none. The passages speak of the male and female as “equals” in all respects.

    As punishment for Adam and Eve’s disobedience, the biblegod introduces the idea of enmity between the man and woman by cursing the woman with male domination (telling the woman that the man will rule over her). Most thinking people would immediately react to this curse by stating “where is the justice in this punishment?” Not only is the biblegod introducing the idea of one gender being superior to the other, but he has completely destroyed any sense of justice in “the punishment fitting the crime”.
    Chapter 3 introduces the details of what would happen BECAUSE of Adam and Eve's transgression. God gave Adam and Eve a self-fulfilling warning in Gen. 2:16-17, “-in the day thou eatest thereof (take in-ingest the serpents lie) thou shalt surely die”; and Eve repeated it wrongly in Gen. 3:2-3, but it shows us that she knew of God's command/warning that there would be dire consequences if they disobeyed God's command.

    Because the serpent beguiled Eve God “will put enmity (ebah;to mean enemy, opposition, division, hostility,etc.) between the serpents seed (Satan's people) and the woman's seed (God's people; representative seed of the woman ie Christ our redeemer). Christ would deliver the deathblow to Satan and his kingdom.

    The harm was done when God said this through no fault of his, because of that transgression it was now inbred in Adam and Eve and would grow from seed to seed and generation to generation.

    And there is when the "sexism" problem began between man and woman, when Adam and Eve transgressed. It was man who brought upon the punishment of the woman as being subservient to him-not God-SHE brought it (sexism) upon herself! God just told them what would happen to them BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY DONE! It was Adam AND Eve's fault NOT GOD"S. God as a righteous judge was the bearer of bad news that we read in Genesis chapter 3 because of Adam and Eve's transgression.

    God bless---Twospirits
    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twospirits View Post
    Rose you are distorting the story, God DID NOT creates woman from man and for man, to set the stage for a gender imbalance. He created “them” equal and to be “as one” in mind thought and action as seen in Gen. 2:24, “they shall be one flesh” ie. To mean equal in all ways. This is clearly told us by the Lord in Gen. 1:26-27:

    “And God said, Let us make man (male and female) in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”


    This is the Word, will and command of God in Gen. 1:26-27, that they be “equal” not one above another in dominion of all things. There is no hint whatsoever of God “setting the stage for a gender imbalance” in this passage, that is purely your speculation.


    You continue to distort the story, by saying he created them in a different fashion and as a helper not an equal; this is again a distortion of scripture and pure speculation. Gen. 1:26-27 lets us know certain details-that “man,” male and female were created in the image of God-and “they” were to have dominion equally over all things of the earth. Chapter 2 tells us further details of “how” God created “them,” ie Adam and Eve, and they shall be “one flesh,” to mean equal in all ways (Gen. 2:24). You are distorting and inferring “sexism” into the passages where there is none. The passages speak of the male and female as “equals” in all respects.
    As I said in my opening post, if chapter one had set the stage for the male/female relationships, the biblical story would have been far different. Biblical history could have followed either of two courses, chapter one, or chapter two...sadly for the sake of women chapter two was chosen by men.



    Quote Originally Posted by Twospirits View Post
    Chapter 3 introduces the details of what would happen BECAUSE of Adam and Eve's transgression. God gave Adam and Eve a self-fulfilling warning in Gen. 2:16-17, “-in the day thou eatest thereof (take in-ingest the serpents lie) thou shalt surely die”; and Eve repeated it wrongly in Gen. 3:2-3, but it shows us that she knew of God's command/warning that there would be dire consequences if they disobeyed God's command.

    Because the serpent beguiled Eve God “will put enmity (ebah;to mean enemy, opposition, division, hostility,etc.) between the serpents seed (Satan's people) and the woman's seed (God's people; representative seed of the woman ie Christ our redeemer). Christ would deliver the deathblow to Satan and his kingdom.

    The harm was done when God said this through no fault of his, because of that transgression it was now inbred in Adam and Eve and would grow from seed to seed and generation to generation.

    And there is when the "sexism" problem began between man and woman, when Adam and Eve transgressed. It was man who brought upon the punishment of the woman as being subservient to him-not God-SHE brought it (sexism) upon herself! God just told them what would happen to them BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY DONE! It was Adam AND Eve's fault NOT GOD"S. God as a righteous judge was the bearer of bad news that we read in Genesis chapter 3 because of Adam and Eve's transgression.

    God bless---Twospirits
    You speak as if the biblegod you believe in is an impotent bystander that could do nothing but let nature take its course. The truth of the matter is that the Bible portrays its god as being the one who gives the rules and meets out the punishments. God clearly says in chapter three that he WILL increase the woman's pain in childbirth, and the man WILL rule over the woman! And just what does having more pain in childbirth, and having man rule over the woman have to do with Eve's disobedience? Male supremacy, that's what!

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    As I said in my opening post, if chapter one had set the stage for the male/female relationships, the biblical story would have been far different. Biblical history could have followed either of two courses, chapter one, or chapter two...sadly for the sake of women chapter two was chosen by men.

    You speak as if the biblegod you believe in is an impotent bystander that could do nothing but let nature take its course. The truth of the matter is that the Bible portrays its god as being the one who gives the rules and meets out the punishments. God clearly says in chapter three that he WILL increase the woman's pain in childbirth, and the man WILL rule over the woman! And just what does having more pain in childbirth, and having man rule over the woman have to do with Eve's disobedience? Male supremacy, that's what!
    Hello Rose
    There is no "if" about it, God set the stage and Twospirits has explained very clearly the equality of men and women that was there at the beginning. You have concluded that the way it is for women has been set my men and that is the problem I agree is there; it is man's doing and not God's. The punishment of Eve was that she should feel pain in child-bearing and it was said to Adam; "cursed is the ground for thy sake". Adam would suffer the physical hardship of having to make his own bread instead of enjoying the fruit of the Garden and he would have to provide the bread for his wife. There is nothing in the two curses that followed the sin of Adam AND Eve that altered the set up that God had for men and women at the beginning which was equality; that is the way God intended it to be and wants it to be, but is is man who God is letting rule himself.

    God is at work in the nations fulfilling His purpose and for the main part in the lives of men and women, God is a bystander and letting man (you and me) rule himself. It is like letting the wheat and the tares grow together, God will sort out the wheat from the tares when the harvest is gathered in and that is when the tares are destroyed. Death and resurrection is time to sort out the harvest. As recorded in Jeremiah, God knew; "it is not in man to direct his steps". This is why God's people were given the law. Jesus (the Son of God) was also directed by that same law. Jesus lived up to that law where as you and I have failed; even the two great commandments which summed up all the laws given to Moses. If we choose to live by God's laws, then we have failed and that makes us (you and me guilty). If you say you do not live by God's laws and you rule yourself, that is your freedom and choice to do so (God will be a bystander for you) and so you have chosen eternal death as your natural end.

    Whatever we think about the the rights and wrongs of God's actions, WE ARE GUILTY of not living according to His standards and there is no blaming God for our mistakes. God be thanked, for He is merciful and we have examples and assurances to show us that He is merciful and that He has given us a way to be saved. Whether we are a man or a woman makes no difference, we can both be saved, if we believe; as it is stated in John 3:16. This is not much to ask of us in return for eternal life in a problem-free world.

    All the best.

    David
    Last edited by David M; 09-01-2012 at 01:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Rose
    There is no "if" about it, God set the stage and Twospirits has explained very clearly the equality of men and women that was there at the beginning. You have concluded that the way it is for women has been set my men and that is the problem I agree is there; it is man's doing and not God's. The punishment of Eve was that she should feel pain in child-bearing and it was said to Adam; "cursed is the ground for thy sake". Adam would suffer the physical hardship of having to make his own bread instead of enjoying the fruit of the Garden and he would have to provide the bread for his wife. There is nothing in the two curses that followed the sin of Adam AND Eve that altered the set up that God had for men and women at the beginning which was equality; that is the way God intended it to be and wants it to be, but is is man who God is letting rule himself.
    Hello David,

    Of course there is, only a blind man would say otherwise. God clearly sets the stage for sexism by "willing" that the man rule over the woman...there is no way around it. As punishment for Eves disobedience God declares that he will multiply her pain and sorrow in childbirth, and that the man will have ruler-ship over her.

    Gen.3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

    The Bible contains two different stories. The first states that both man and woman are created equally in God's image and told to go forth and multiply. In the second story God creates Adam first out of the dust, and then decides after Adam cannot find a mate from amongst all the animals to create Eve from Adams rib...after that he punishes Eve's disobedience by setting the man up as ruler over the woman...and the rest is biblical history.


    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    God is at work in the nations fulfilling His purpose and for the main part in the lives of men and women, God is a bystander and letting man (you and me) rule himself. It is like letting the wheat and the tares grow together, God will sort out the wheat from the tares when the harvest is gathered in and that is when the tares are destroyed. Death and resurrection is time to sort out the harvest. As recorded in Jeremiah, God knew; "it is not in man to direct his steps". This is why God's people were given the law. Jesus (the Son of God) was also directed by that same law. Jesus lived up to that law where as you and I have failed; even the two great commandments which summed up all the laws given to Moses. If we choose to live by God's laws, then we have failed and that makes us (you and me guilty). If you say you do not live by God's laws and you rule yourself, that is your freedom and choice to do so (God will be a bystander for you) and so you have chosen eternal death as your natural end.
    If God is a bystander then what is the use of prayer? I guess it is up to us humans to try and interpret the thousands of different variations of biblical understandings, so that we can know which laws to obey and which laws are obsolete. Can women speak in church, or teach a man now? I know they couldn't in the first century. Jesus said not one "jot" or "tittle" would be changed from the law, so is it okay to stone people for adultery? The list could go on, and on with no end in sight, so if God is just a bystander we are all screwed (which has been the condition of women throughout history anyway)!

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hello David,

    Of course there is, only a blind man would say otherwise. God clearly sets the stage for sexism by "willing" that the man rule over the woman...there is no way around it. As punishment for Eves disobedience God declares that he will multiply her pain and sorrow in childbirth, and that the man will have ruler-ship over her.
    There is no point me saying anything that has not already been said by Twospirits and I have said. Please give us your detailed exposition of God's word dealing with Adam and Eve and see how you explain the text. Was what God said to Eve a statement or a commandment?

    All you are doing is repeating your idea that God is; "willing" that the man rule over the woman. You need to explain how you derive this from the text.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Gen.3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
    Here is Twospirits's post explaining this. If you carry on just repeating and quoting the verse without additional explanation as Twospirits has done, we shall just be going round in circles.
    Quote Originally Posted by Twospirits View Post
    Genesis 3 explains this "problem." It was a punishment, a curse put upon Adam and Eve by God because of their rebellion against him. He did not condone or approve of it in the way you and Rose make it out to be; it was a curse/punishment, big difference here.

    Gen. 3:15, "And I will put enmity (ebah;to mean opposition, division, hostility,etc.) between thee (serpent) and the woman, and between thy seed (seed of the adversary) and her seed; he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Here the serpent is to become an adversary against the woman and man (Christ).

    The punishment of the woman is given in Gen. 3:16, "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire (shall be) to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." Not that God commanded the man to rule over her but this would happen because of this curse/punishment being put on them-enmity, division, hostility. Man would rule over the woman in that adversarial sense.

    The punishment of Adam because he listened to his wife "cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life." And there the "sexism" problem began between man and woman. It was man who brought upon the punishment of the woman-not God- he just told them what would happen to them because of what they done. It was Adam AND Eve's fault NOT GOD"S.

    God bless---Twospirits
    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    The Bible contains two different stories. The first states that both man and woman are created equally in God's image and told to go forth and multiply. In the second story God creates Adam first out of the dust, and then decides after Adam cannot find a mate from amongst all the animals to create Eve from Adams rib...after that he punishes Eve's disobedience by setting the man up as ruler over the woman...and the rest is biblical history.
    This is not how it has been explained to you and you are just repeating your own dogma, which I and Twospirits do not accept as we have explained.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    If God is a bystander then what is the use of prayer? I guess it is up to us humans to try and interpret the thousands of different variations of biblical understandings, so that we can know which laws to obey and which laws are obsolete. Can women speak in church, or teach a man now? I know they couldn't in the first century. Jesus said not one "jot" or "tittle" would be changed from the law, so is it okay to stone people for adultery? The list could go on, and on with no end in sight, so if God is just a bystander we are all screwed (which has been the condition of women throughout history anyway)!
    God is a bystander to those who ignore him and want to go their own way. Prayer is for those who believe in God and want to express their thoughts and desires an concerns to Him. Prayer can be discussed in another thread as this is diverting us away from the subject under consideration. It is up to us to understand what God requires of us, but it is not difficult or as difficult as you are attempting to make out. You know what the two great commandments are. In Micah we read; He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

    Paul's advice for women to keep silent in church does not necessarily mean what you think it means and it does not stop women spreading the Gospel. We can all do this. I have reason to think that it is man's responsibility to preach, but that does not stop women making their contribution. It is not sexism for God to give different responsibilities to men and women; it is accepted that in marriage men and women have different responsibilities; different responsibilities is not sexism.

    Jesus fulfilled the law and showed it could be done, so knowing what God requires of us is not as difficult as you are trying to make out. If women are "trapped" it is the fault of men and NOT God. If we were all righteous we would not be having this discussion about the problems men and women have created for themselves. "Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man" (Eccl 12:13). Do this and a person maintains righteousness.

    The laws concerning adultery and stoning of adulterers might sound harsh, but to condone adultery or not make it a serious offense is one of the reasons for the escalating the evil in this world. Without following a rule book, the art is to balance mercy and justice and there is not a person I know who could apply these to every situation as good as God can apply them, for God can read our thoughts and know our motives. We all know there is a lot of injustice in the world today attributable to man's rule.

    I commented in another post to you that is looked as if you condone sex before marriage and adultery and it is the acceptance of things like this that leads to a sick society.

    All the best.

    David
    Last edited by David M; 09-01-2012 at 06:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    There is no point me saying anything that has not already been said by Twospirits and I have said. Please give us your detailed exposition of God's word dealing with Adam and Eve and see how you explain the text. Was what God said to Eve a statement or a commandment?

    All you are doing is repeating your idea that God is; "willing" that the man rule over the woman. You need to explain how you derive this from the text.

    Here is Twospirits's post explaining this. If you carry on just repeating and quoting the verse without additional explanation as Twospirits has done, we shall just be going round in circles.



    This is not how it has been explained to you and you are just repeating your own dogma, which I and Twospirits do not accept as we have explained.
    Hi David,

    I have no dogma to repeat, I only state what the Bible clearly says. The only reason that Twospirits gave was that Adam and Eve brought down the curse and punishment upon themselves, failing to explain that it was God who decided what the punishment and curses would be. As I have said in a previous post, what does God's chosen punishment of multiplying the woman's pain in childbirth and having the man rule over her have to do with her disobedience to God? Neither you, or Twospirits have answered my question. Plain and simple: God chose the punishment that he meted out to Adam and Eve, so the responsibility for the consequences are fully Gods, but then of course I believe that the Bible was written by men who invented their own god so ultimately the responsibility lies at feet of men.



    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    God is a bystander to those who ignore him and want to go their own way. Prayer is for those who believe in God and want to express their thoughts and desires an concerns to Him. Prayer can be discussed in another thread as this is diverting us away from the subject under consideration. It is up to us to understand what God requires of us, but it is not difficult or as difficult as you are attempting to make out. You know what the two great commandments are. In Micah we read; He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

    Paul's advice for women to keep silent in church does not necessarily mean what you think it means and it does not stop women spreading the Gospel. We can all do this. I have reason to think that it is man's responsibility to preach, but that does not stop women making their contribution. It is not sexism for God to give different responsibilities to men and women; it is accepted that in marriage men and women have different responsibilities; different responsibilities is not sexism.

    Jesus fulfilled the law and showed it could be done, so knowing what God requires of us is not as difficult as you are trying to make out. If women are "trapped" it is the fault of men and NOT God. If we were all righteous we would not be having this discussion about the problems men and women have created for themselves. "Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man" (Eccl 12:13). Do this and a person maintains righteousness.
    No one is talking about different responsibilities people have depending on what job they are doing. What I am specifically speaking of is denial of equal human rights, that is to say things that are denied a woman solely based on her gender. When Paul denied women the right to speak in church he did so because of gender, not because of capability. When Paul said that a wife was to submit to her husband it was solely based on gender, not because she couldn't run the family just as well as the man. Every case of sexism and male bias that I have cited has one thing in common...rights are denied based on gender, not whether a woman is equally capable of performing the task. Maybe I'm asking too much for you men to understand how a woman feels, but then again, Richard understands perfectly.


    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    The laws concerning adultery and stoning of adulterers might sound harsh, but to condone adultery or not make it a serious offense is one of the reasons for the escalating the evil in this world. Without following a rule book, the art is to balance mercy and justice and there is not a person I know who could apply these to every situation as good as God can apply them, for God can read our thoughts and know our motives. We all know there is a lot of injustice in the world today attributable to man's rule.

    I commented in another post to you that is looked as if you condone sex before marriage and adultery and it is the acceptance of things like this that leads to a sick society.

    All the best.

    David
    I have no problem with sex outside of marriage as long as it is between two consenting adults, but I do not condone adultery. I think when two people make a marriage vow to each other it should be binding, and if one of the parties is unhappy in the marriage then they should seek divorce instead of cheating on their spouse. Even though I don't condone adultery, I absolutely condemn the punishment of stoning that the biblegod decrees, or any punishment for that matter except divorcing the offending party.

    I am horrified that you agree with the Bibles harsh punishment for adultery! Especially since your god only sometimes chooses to met out harsh punishment, capriciously excluding people like David who could get away with murder and adultery with only his child suffering punished for his sins! I guess God doesn't have to follow his own rules.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
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