Defending Misogyny in the Bible

[Rose]

Sad to say this is what religion does to peoples brains...

[CWH]

What Religion and Atheism does to people's brain:

http://wmbriggs.com/blog/?p=5076

Differences In Brains Between Believers And Atheists?

The following question was posed at the (inaptly named) magazine Scientific American, 'Is there a difference between the brain of an atheist and the brain of a religious person?' It was asked of one Andrew Newberg, 'director of research at the Myrna Brind Center of Integrative Medicine at Thomas Jefferson University and Hospital in Philadelphia.'

Newberg said yes.

But he admitted that the 'the neural picture is not yet complete.'

Several studies have revealed that people who practice meditation or have prayed for many years exhibit increased activity and have more brain tissue in their frontal lobes, regions associated with attention and reward, as compared with people who do not meditate or pray. A more recent study revealed that people who have had 'born again' experiences have a smaller hippocampus, a part of the brain involved in emotions and memory, than atheists do. These findings, however, are difficult to interpret because they do not clarify whether having larger frontal lobes or a smaller hippocampus causes a person to become more religious or whether being pious triggers changes in these brain regions.

Newberg left out the most important point of this 'recent study': it does not confirm that people who have been 'born again' have a smaller hippocampi than do atheists. Newberg’s understanding of statistical evidence is poor. Three points about studies of this kind (for more, look at this critique of another Newberg study):

The sample sizes can usually be counted on the fingers of one or two researchers, making the possibility of over-certainty high;
The kind of people chosen to study came from an extremely narrow demographic, in time, place, age, socio-economic, and genetic background. It is a stretch past the snapping point to suggest, as Newberg does, that these few folks represent all humanity;
In this study (and all similar) it is not the case that all theists had smaller hippocampi than atheists. What happened was that a few more theists than atheists had smaller hippocampi; it is even so that some theists had larger hippocampi than some atheists.
It is also the case that nobody knows whether smaller or larger hippocampi are better or worse (for their possessors) in any tangible sense. It makes a pleasing sound, of course, to suggest that larger is better, but this supposition is unwarranted—at best: at worst it is foolish.

Various experiments have also tried to elucidate whether believing in God causes similar brain changes as believing in something else. The results, so far, show that thinking about God may activate the same parts of the brain as thinking about an airplane, a friend or a lamppost. For instance, one study showed that when religious people prayed to God, they used some of the same areas of the brain as when they talked to an average Joe. In other words, in the religious person’s brain, God is just as real as any object or person.

One begins to wonder if Newberg can remember what he says from one moment to the next, for this second set of 'evidence' is not consonant with the first. If God is as real as 'any' object or person—and just what exactly, measurably, unambiguously does 'any object or person' mean? any?—then the only thing that is different between the brains of theists and atheists must be so minuscule that we have little hope of finding it.

If the brain acts that the same way for God as it does for pencil erasers, pebbles, grains of sand, air, water, aspirins, electrons, Uncle Mike, and on and on forever, then all that can be different is one small 'belief switch', turned 'on' for theists and 'off' for atheists.

But even this is nonsense. Talk of 'areas of the brain' is ridiculously loose, and is a bad, unshakable habit of people like Newberg (see this egregious study of Sam Harris).

Research also suggests that a religious brain exhibits higher levels of dopamine, a hormone associated with increased attention and motivation. A study showed that believers were much more likely than skeptics to see words and faces on a screen when there were none, whereas skeptics often did not see words and faces that were actually there. Yet when skeptics were given the drug L-dopa, which increases the amount of dopamine in the brain, they were just as likely to interpret scrambled patterns as words and faces as were the religious individuals.

The 'research' that 'suggests' these findings is subject to the identical criticism given above. E.g. it is not the case in this wee sample that every theist had more dopamine than every theist, etc.

Notice how Newberg exposes his bias. Let it be so that theists 'tend' to see patterns in patternless data more than do atheists. Sounds bad, almost as if the atheists have not evolved into a higher state. But if theists are quicker to see patterns, then they ought to be better scientists, more acute detectives, quicker to find true signals hidden in the noise. We do find, do we not?, among those of lasting genius (Newton, Galileo, Bach, Shakespeare, etc.) vastly more theists than atheists.

This means the mutation that leads to atheism is harmful. Good thing, then, that we find that atheists breed less than theists. Their faulty, harmful-to-intelligence genes have a good chance of passing out of the population.


God Bless the Believers.

[David M]

Sad to say this is what religion does to peoples brains...

I would say it is more a case of what people turn religion into, rather than what religion turns people into.

All the blame rests on people. False religions are from the imagination of people, not from God.

If the true principles of God are followed, women would live in harmony with men; each sex accepting their different roles in life and all being on equal terms.

Any deviation with this is as a result of men and woman, not God. We can all do our part to live in harmony; even following God's principles.

Does atheism result in men and women living in harmony? There is no God to blame according to the atheist.

Is having no belief in any God, having no religion? Following the only one and true way to live (as God intends men and women to live) is not a religion. Religions come from the invention of men and women.

Blame men and women for inventing their religion, but do not blame God.

It is men and women who want power and control. Men have the greater tendency in this respect to want to control women, but women can equally want to control men. It is not God's will for men or women to have control over one another.

All men and women should submit themselves to he higher power that is God and do His will. His will is that we should love one another. We should esteem each other more highly than ourselves.

If we are subject to the evil from men and women, we are told not to recompense evil for evil. We should do that which lessens the practice of evil by others. Let God deal with evil men and women and let God give them their due rewards. God has taken the responsibility of dealing with evil men and women away from us.

While God is letting men and women have their own rule, God is proving that men and women cannot rule themselves in a harmonious way;[quote] "it is not in man to direct his steps" Only when men and women have the powerful leadership of Christ once he is back on earth to reign, will God's/Christ's form of rulership be proven to be the only one that works.

Until then we are are subject to the rule of men and women; who else have we to blame? We can only blame God for giving men and women their freedom to choose. Blame men and women for making the wrong choice.

God will put a stop to the rule of men and women and men and women will eventually learn that their way is wrong.

The evil, the pain and suffering and upset caused by the rule of men and women will be done away for good when God "shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

Role on the day when men and women finally realize that God's ways are best and the rule of men and women are at an end.

How do we know God's way will work? God has already given us His teaching through His only begotten Son. We are told Jesus will reign with power and in righteousness. No other world leader has done this. We have been able to implement the teaching of Jesus in our own lives to see what difference that can make. To know that God will make things right through the ruler-ship of a righteous man is what faith is about. It is the hope of things to come. the evidence of things not seen.

We have the written evidence in God's word, we have to keep faith and wait for the outworking of God's plan to take over the rulership of men and women by that man whom God has ordained. That man is now seated at the right hand of God and represents those who will be in the kingdom and who is like the angels which are sexless. Therefore, in the kingdom to come, those who are in the kingdom will all be equal in nature and form.

The present inequality between the sexes is the making of men and women; not God.

We can have the mind of Christ now and that would make us equal if we were all of one mind. If we are all of one mind as Jesus was of one mind with his Heavenly Father, men and women would not see each other as unequal.

We can all be precious jewels in this life that God wants to select to be in His Kingdom. As God says; "And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him".


David

[Richard Amiel McGough]

CWH,

When you quote source, especially whole articles, you should put it in quote tags so folks can distinguish between what you wrote and the words you are quoting.

Also, it's a good idea to just quote the portion that you want to comment on and then comment on it.

As for the article you quoted - I don't get it. It's poorly written and didn't make much sense to me. What was your point?

All the best,

Richard

[duxrow]

I would say it is more a case of what people turn religion into, rather than what religion turns people into.

All the blame rests on people. False religions are from the imagination of people, not from God.

We can all be precious jewels in this life that God wants to select to be in His Kingdom. As God says; "And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him".

David

Tks, David..
He's coming "as a thief in the night", so got a laugh when I first saw Him as a 'Jewel-thief', who will be returning in the clouds to rescue His Body and One Bread -- that would be 'Raisin-bread' - Right?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I would say it is more a case of what people turn religion into, rather than what religion turns people into.

All the blame rests on people. False religions are from the imagination of people, not from God.

Good morning David,

I agree with your statements thought I take a different spin on them. I think all religions were invented by humans and so they all are "false." If there is a true one, it is utterly irrelevant since God designed it to be an indistinguishable drop in an the ocean of false religions. That's what's so interesting about this topic. All believers of any religion agree with all believers of all other religions that all religions except their own are false. It's kinda ironic if you think about it. The most fervent believer in God agrees with the atheist about the falsehood of 99.999% of all religions!

If the true principles of God are followed, women would live in harmony with men; each sex accepting their different roles in life and all being on equal terms.

Any deviation with this is as a result of men and woman, not God. We can all do our part to live in harmony; even following God's principles.

Yes, and those ungrateful slaves would have been happy on the plantation if only they had obeyed their masters.

Does atheism result in men and women living in harmony? There is no God to blame according to the atheist.

Is having no belief in any God, having no religion? Following the only one and true way to live (as God intends men and women to live) is not a religion. Religions come from the invention of men and women.

Yes, I would say that lacking a belief in God is "having no religion" just as "not collecting stamps" is not a hobby.

The rejection of dogmatic religion (fundamentalist Islam, Christianity, Judaism) certainly has helped a lot of people on the road to equality between the sexes.

Have you considered the fact that you are an atheist with respect to all the gods humans have ever invented except the one you happen to believe in?

People are often confused about atheism because there are two very different meanings to the word.

1) A person who does not have a belief in any god.
2) A person who asserts there is not god.

There's a big difference between those two definitions. Many Christians like to caricature atheists using definition #2 so they can use the rhetorical trick of accusing them of claiming absolute knowledge. That's what's stupid about definition #2. It's fine if atheists want to give reasons to believe there probably are no gods, but it's foolish in the extreme to claim absolute knowledge about things no one really knows.

Your assertion that "Following the only one and true way to live (as God intends men and women to live) is not a religion" makes no sense to me. How are we supposed to distinguish "the only one and true way to live" from all the religions that claim to be that?

Blame men and women for inventing their religion, but do not blame God.

If you claim that God inspired the Bible, then God is to blame for the consequences when people take the Bible as his word.

It is men and women who want power and control. Men have the greater tendency in this respect to want to control women, but women can equally want to control men. It is not God's will for men or women to have control over one another.

That's not what the Bible teaches. From beginning to end it explicitly places men over women. Men are said to be the "head" over women in the same way that God is the head over men. The sexism is fundamentally based on Christian theology and so Christianity can never be truly egalitarian.

All men and women should submit themselves to he higher power that is God and do His will. His will is that we should love one another. We should esteem each other more highly than ourselves.

Yes, the Bible teaches love and submission to God. Unfortunately, it also teaches that men should rule over women.

If we are subject to the evil from men and women, we are told not to recompense evil for evil. We should do that which lessens the practice of evil by others. Let God deal with evil men and women and let God give them their due rewards. God has taken the responsibility of dealing with evil men and women away from us.

While God is letting men and women have their own rule, God is proving that men and women cannot rule themselves in a harmonious way; "it is not in man to direct his steps" Only when men and women have the powerful leadership of Christ once he is back on earth to reign, will God's/Christ's form of rulership be proven to be the only one that works.

Until then we are are subject to the rule of men and women; who else have we to blame? We can only blame God for giving men and women their freedom to choose. Blame men and women for making the wrong choice.

Well, your particular interpretation is just one amongst many that have been presented as "what the Bible really teaches." The Reformers, which are your spiritual fathers since your religion is a variation on Protestantism, were by and large amillennial.

God will put a stop to the rule of men and women and men and women will eventually learn that their way is wrong.

The evil, the pain and suffering and upset caused by the rule of men and women will be done away for good when God "shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

That sounds nice, but how does it justify the sexism instituted by God in the Bible?

We have the written evidence in God's word, we have to keep faith and wait for the outworking of God's plan to take over the rulership of men and women by that man whom God has ordained. That man is now seated at the right hand of God and represents those who will be in the kingdom and who is like the angels which are sexless. Therefore, in the kingdom to come, those who are in the kingdom will all be equal in nature and form.

I would be delighted to learn what you think constitutes the "written evidence in God's Word." I know you think fulfilled prophecy serves that role, but I think it has been established that there is no objectively verifiable evidence that would convince a skeptic. This seems to imply that you are not a believer because of the evidence, but rather you believe there is evidence because you are a believer.

The present inequality between the sexes is the making of men and women; not God.

I agree, and that's why I reject the Bible as the Word of God because the Bible is saturated with sexism instituted by men but presented as if it were commanded by God.

Richard

[Rose]

I would say it is more a case of what people turn religion into, rather than what religion turns people into.

All the blame rests on people. False religions are from the imagination of people, not from God.

If the true principles of God are followed, women would live in harmony with men; each sex accepting their different roles in life and all being on equal terms.

Any deviation with this is as a result of men and woman, not God. We can all do our part to live in harmony; even following God's principles.

Hi David

My question to you would be: what gives you, or any man who wrote the Bible the right to tell women what their roles are? All the words we read in the Bible come from minds of men who wanted to dominate women and use them as property. The customs and traditions of biblical times was that of male domination so naturally the god that those Bronze Age men created would exhibit their same misogynistic qualities.

Does atheism result in men and women living in harmony? There is no God to blame according to the atheist.

Is having no belief in any God, having no religion? Following the only one and true way to live (as God intends men and women to live) is not a religion. Religions come from the invention of men and women.

Blame men and women for inventing their religion, but do not blame God.

It is men and women who want power and control. Men have the greater tendency in this respect to want to control women, but women can equally want to control men. It is not God's will for men or women to have control over one another.

All men and women should submit themselves to he higher power that is God and do His will. His will is that we should love one another. We should esteem each other more highly than ourselves.

Yes, religions are the invention of men and women; the same hold true for the words in the Bible which laid the foundation for Judaism, Islam and Christianity. The biblegod tells us that men are to rule over women and rule equals control, so it appears that it is the biblegod's will that men control women.

If we are subject to the evil from men and women, we are told not to recompense evil for evil. We should do that which lessens the practice of evil by others. Let God deal with evil men and women and let God give them their due rewards. God has taken the responsibility of dealing with evil men and women away from us.

While God is letting men and women have their own rule, God is proving that men and women cannot rule themselves in a harmonious way; "it is not in man to direct his steps" Only when men and women have the powerful leadership of Christ once he is back on earth to reign, will God's/Christ's form of rulership be proven to be the only one that works.

Until then we are are subject to the rule of men and women; who else have we to blame? We can only blame God for giving men and women their freedom to choose. Blame men and women for making the wrong choice.

God will put a stop to the rule of men and women and men and women will eventually learn that their way is wrong.

The evil, the pain and suffering and upset caused by the rule of men and women will be done away for good when God "shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

Role on the day when men and women finally realize that God's ways are best and the rule of men and women are at an end.

The problem seems to be that the biblegod told men they are to rule over women. Anytime a holy book declares that its god decrees certain rules and laws then those proclamations become forever written in the hearts of those who believe in that god. There can never be harmony when one group of people rule over another and keep the other group from fulfilling their potential. This is exactly what the Bible has done to the minds of men who think they are superior to women because the Bible teaches they are.

How do we know God's way will work? God has already given us His teaching through His only begotten Son. We are told Jesus will reign with power and in righteousness. No other world leader has done this. We have been able to implement the teaching of Jesus in our own lives to see what difference that can make. To know that God will make things right through the ruler-ship of a righteous man is what faith is about. It is the hope of things to come. the evidence of things not seen.

We have the written evidence in God's word, we have to keep faith and wait for the outworking of God's plan to take over the rulership of men and women by that man whom God has ordained. That man is now seated at the right hand of God and represents those who will be in the kingdom and who is like the angels which are sexless. Therefore, in the kingdom to come, those who are in the kingdom will all be equal in nature and form.

The present inequality between the sexes is the making of men and women; not God.

We can have the mind of Christ now and that would make us equal if we were all of one mind. If we are all of one mind as Jesus was of one mind with his Heavenly Father, men and women would not see each other as unequal.

We can all be precious jewels in this life that God wants to select to be in His Kingdom. As God says; "And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him".


David

Therein lies another problem. Jesus did nothing to condemn the misogynistic teachings of the god he called his father, so one can only conclude that he agreed with them, that is why the apostle Paul made so many connections between the Old and New Testaments concerning the subjugation of women and that does nothing to promote harmony between the sexes.

All the best,
Rose

[David M]

Good Morning Rose

Hi David

My question to you would be: what gives you, or any man who wrote the Bible the right to tell women what their roles are? All the words we read in the Bible come from minds of men who wanted to dominate women and use them as property. The customs and traditions of biblical times was that of male domination so naturally the god that those Bronze Age men created would exhibit their same misogynistic qualities.

I have not been given any right. I did not say that I had. I said; "each accepting their different roles". I was assuming you would realize that these roles are either as a result of their sex like the woman giving birth and the man providing the food by tilling the ground. These are two roles as spoken about by God to Adam and Eve. Other than that their roles in their partnership/marriage would be mutually agreed.

Yes, religions are the invention of men and women; the same hold true for the words in the Bible which laid the foundation for Judaism, Islam and Christianity. The biblegod tells us that men are to rule over women and rule equals control, so it appears that it is the biblegod's will that men control women.

Outside of marriage the woman is free to do as she pleases. Within the marriage, the husband (as head) takes responsibility to care for his wife and to ensure his wife obeys God's will as he should do. The husband is to honor his wife. In the roles of marriage there is nothing to condemn God about for creating men and women to have compatible roles.

The problem seems to be that the biblegod told men they are to rule over women. Anytime a holy book declares that its god decrees certain rules and laws then those proclamations become forever written in the hearts of those who believe in that god. There can never be harmony when one group of people rule over another and keep the other group from fulfilling their potential. This is exactly what the Bible has done to the minds of men who think they are superior to women because the Bible teaches they are.

I agree; it does seem a problem to you, it is not a problem to anyone who accepts God is wiser than we are and acepts that God wants to give us eternal life. We can only receive eternal life so long as we do not alienate ourselves from Him. Doing abominable acts like sacrificing children to graven images, would be to alienate ourselves. You think God does not have the right to punish those for doing exactly what he has told them not to do. You think God does not have the right to punish/kill those abominable people using the methods he did. You fail to appreciate any just motives God had for using those methods.

Therein lies another problem. Jesus did nothing to condemn the misogynistic teachings of the god he called his father, so one can only conclude that he agreed with them, that is why the apostle Paul made so many connections between the Old and New Testaments concerning the subjugation of women and that does nothing to promote harmony between the sexes.

Jesus taught exactly the same teaching that came from God on how men and women should live. You know the two Great Commandments which sums up all the law and the prophets in the OT; that is what you should be concentrating on. Jesus had no need to raise these issues in public, which he might have asked privately and been given an answer. Jesus had enough intelligence to understand the scriptures he read and knew that his Heavenly Father was wiser than he was and could see the justice in God's actions that you now reject (though you once accepted it).

In your vocabulary and for the reasons you think there should be perfect equality between men and women and that there is no God, you have taken away the need for the word "humility" in our language. Jesus demonstrated perfect humility because he accepted his God-given role. Humility is something many of us who believe in God forget in our conversing with our fellow human beings, yet humility should be at the core of our being; as it was with Jesus. God is far wiser than any man or woman can understand.

All the best,

David

[David M]

Good morning Richard

We have both made our points, I will just reply to the questions you have asked of me and this will conclude our discussion in this thread.

Have you considered the fact that you are an atheist with respect to all the gods humans have ever invented except the one you happen to believe in?

Thanks for your two definitions of what you think a Christian understands by the word "atheist"; I will stick with the dictionary definition; "a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings".

How are we supposed to distinguish "the only one and true way to live" from all the religions that claim to be that?

That is the problem. You are supposed to distinguish. You have to choose which of them all it the only true way to live. I have distinguished this from reading the Bible and the Koran and knowing about any other religion. For me, the Bible has all the answers. God has declared that He is ONE and that beside Him there is no other God. The Bible is full of absolutes. There is no other revealed word of God other than we have in the Bible that has been compiled from His inspired writings. I recognize 'The Bible' as God's word. God has given us evidence, though that evidence has to be recognized.

God knows the minds of the man and woman He created. He has given us the instructions as to how men and women should conduct our lives. The Creator has given us a simple explanation of how we came into existence, the purpose of the earth and the future of mankind upon it. God has told us what is in store for those who believe in Him and do His will. No other religion comes close to explaining this as clearly as God's revealed word does (in my subjective opinion). If by your reasoning and distinguishing, you want to reject it, so be it.

That sounds nice, but how does it justify the sexism instituted by God in the Bible?

I do not see the same sexism you are trying to make out. I have replied to Rose about this same question. Obviously, God had to create male and female for humans and other animals to procreate. I know that within the roles of each according to their sex, like the woman gives birth and nurtures the child, and the man toils to provide food to feed his family. There is no sexism or bias if we simply keep and apply the two Great Commandments in our lives. Anything else is the invention of men and women, which is the point to writing my comments in the way that I did. It is men and women who are complicating things. It is God who is having to deal with the wayward actions of men and women. God is dealing with it and God will put matters right. God gave the Israelites a code to live by to be examples to the other nations and Israel failed. Jesus fulfilled that law given to Israel and it was Jesus who summed up all the law into those two great commandments. All will be put right by the time Jesus has restored the kingdom and handed it back to his Heavenly Father in the time to come. Until God intervenes in a big way, we have to put up with the rule of men and women in the world today. So once again, blame men and women before blaming God.

All the best,

David

[Rose]

Good Morning Rose


I have not been given any right. I did not say that I had. I said; "each accepting their different roles". I was assuming you would realize that these roles are either as a result of their sex like the woman giving birth and the man providing the food by tilling the ground. These are two roles as spoken about by God to Adam and Eve. Other than that their roles in their partnership/marriage would be mutually agreed.

Good morning David,

Since when is providing food by tilling the ground a man's job? Statistics show that in third world countries women do most of the growing of food for their families. The biblegod does not have to tell women their role is giving birth, because it is something only women can do!

Outside of marriage the woman is free to do as she pleases. Within the marriage, the husband (as head) takes responsibility to care for his wife and to ensure his wife obeys God's will as he should do. The husband is to honor his wife. In the roles of marriage there is nothing to condemn God about for creating men and women to have compatible roles.

Why is it that a man has to take care of the woman? It seems to me women are just as capable of taking care of themselves and their children, as a man is in taking care of himself. I agree that working as a partnership is beneficial to both parties, but in no way does a woman need a man to take care of her.
The other point you mentioned about the man needing to be the head, so he can ensure his wife obeys God's will shows your male-bias. You seem to think that a woman can't, or won't obey "God's" will on her own, but needs a man to enforce it?

I agree; it does seem a problem to you, it is not a problem to anyone who accepts God is wiser than we are and acepts that God wants to give us eternal life. We can only receive eternal life so long as we do not alienate ourselves from Him. Doing abominable acts like sacrificing children to graven images, would be to alienate ourselves. You think God does not have the right to punish those for doing exactly what he has told them not to do. You think God does not have the right to punish/kill those abominable people using the methods he did. You fail to appreciate any just motives God had for using those methods.

The problem I have with the biblegod's punishments is that the very things he is punishing people for he is doing himself, like killing all the children and babies of the people who were supposedly killing their children and babies...go figure that?????

Jesus taught exactly the same teaching that came from God on how men and women should live. You know the two Great Commandments which sums up all the law and the prophets in the OT; that is what you should be concentrating on. Jesus had no need to raise these issues in public, which he might have asked privately and been given an answer. Jesus had enough intelligence to understand the scriptures he read and knew that his Heavenly Father was wiser than he was and could see the justice in God's actions that you now reject (though you once accepted it).

In your vocabulary and for the reasons you think there should be perfect equality between men and women and that there is no God, you have taken away the need for the word "humility" in our language. Jesus demonstrated perfect humility because he accepted his God-given role. Humility is something many of us who believe in God forget in our conversing with our fellow human beings, yet humility should be at the core of our being; as it was with Jesus. God is far wiser than any man or woman can understand.

All the best,

David

There is another problem that Jesus did not address in his teachings... in the Old Testament loving your neighbor sometimes meant killing him if you wanted his land...

Take care,
Rose