Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
Hello Richard

If I have rejected your reason, it is on the basis that you have not taken Jude 6 in proper context. Jude is not referring to the Book of Enoch. You have already stated in other posts, the Book of Enoch is not to be trusted. It is not counted acceptable to be included in the Bible. I will not base my reasoning on the Book of Enoch. There is no proof Jude is quoting from that source. The fact that Jude mentions the name "Enoch" later on in his letter is not by way of referring to any writings of Enoch; more a case of quoting the ancient scriptures that mention Enoch.

You dismissed this as a watershed, but if you fail to get the context of Jude correctly, I do not see any hope of discussing any other prophecies/passages in the Bible.

To consider the context of Jude, concentrate on the words highlighted:

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.6 And the angels (angels = ministers) which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example,


What specific incident is Jude reminding his readers of?

Who or what groups of people were destroyed in the Wilderness after deliverance from Egypt?

What are the names of the ministers destroyed?

By what means were the ministers destroyed?


Answer these questions and then you have the context in which the word "angels" has been used.


I am hoping you will at least give an answer to these four questions. Even if you do not accept the answer you are lead to, you will have found an alternative explanation and a reasonable interpretation of Jude to add to your knowledge base.

It is better that you do the work to find out who it is that Jude is reminding his readers of, than for me to tell you who it is. Once you have given me your answers to these questions, I can post my explanation of Jude 6 (which I said I would do) in a new thread in the Bible Studies section.


All the best,

David

PS There is also a reasonable explanation for Michael and Satan, but one step at a time. Deal with "angels" first.
Hi David,

Your statement that "Jude is not referring to the Book of Enoch" has no basis in fact as far as I can tell. It is merely an assertion, and it contradicts all scholarship on the topic. Read any competent scholar and you will find them confirming this fact.

Now moving on to your questions:

What specific incident is Jude reminding his readers of?
He is referring to three incidents:

1) The entire 40 years in the wilderness, when God destroyed all those who did not believe him. "And the LORD'S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was consumed" (Num 32:13).

2) Genesis 6:4 "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."

3) Sodom and Gomorrah


Who or what groups of people were destroyed in the Wilderness after deliverance from Egypt?
All who did not believe.

What are the names of the ministers destroyed?
Jude made no mention of any "ministers" in the verse you quoted. Your interpretation is forced and it contradicts context. Jude refers to Michael the Archangel in the immediate context. He would have been entirely incompetent to refer to humans as "angels" just two verses earlier. If you want to make your case, you must first establish that it is reasonable to think that the "angels" in verse 5 really refer to human "ministers." Why haven't you done that?

By what means were the ministers destroyed?
Again, the text you quoted made no mention of any ministers. It specifically spoke of God destroying all those who did not believe in the exodus.

All the best,

Richard