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  1. #31
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    I came across a reading in 2 Kings 17. This chapter covers the idolatry of God's people as a consequence of their bringing knowledge of such practices with them from Egypt and also from practicing the idolatry of the nations that God wanted His people to clear out of the Promised Land. Here is one pertinent verse, but the whole chapter needs to be read to get the full extent of the peoples' wickedness.

    2 Kings 17:17 And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

    It is very clear from 2Kings 17 that God punished the tribes of Israel and Judah as well as those nations around them for practicing idoalatry. It is the Creator's right to do as He pleases. God is not unjust in what He does. Forget Human Rights what about God's Rights? It is an abomination to God for anyone to worship gods that do not exist and which are in the minds of men who made them up and have made graven images of their gods. I can understand the anger of God at this just as I can understand the anger of anyone else. Why shouldn't God get angry? We all know what it means to get angry when people do not follow our instructions and insult us and deny us.

    God has laid down rules, whether we like the rules of not. If obeyed, the rules would mean that we all live in peace and harmony and God will bless us. Why can't we just do what God wants and we can all be happy. Disobey the rules and we cannot expect anything from God, but God's punishment. The worst punishment of all is eternal death by whatever means that comes (slaughter or natural death). We can argue from a personal standpoint on the morals of God, but from the Bible, which is God's standpoint, God is totally justified in what He does. God does no more than what He has said He will do. Those who associate with God have nothing to fear, and that includes the judgment to come.

    I have given up arguing against humanist on this forum who have their own set of morals. Discussing God's morals will not change anything. God is in control and God will have the last word, whether we like it or not.


    David
    Last edited by David M; 05-04-2012 at 03:56 AM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I have given up arguing against humanist on this forum who have their own set of morals. Discussing God's morals will not change anything. God is in control and God will have the last word, whether we like it or not.
    Hi David,

    Your comment is entirely false. Everyone but Christians agree that genocide is immoral in all contexts. Christians are the ones who have their own set of morals that change whenever the Bible attributes actions to God that would be considered immoral in all other contexts.

    I am not aware of any inconsistency in my morals and no one has, to my knowledge, shown any such inconsistency. I do not have my "own set of morals." My morality is based on the foundation of Love and a recognition of fundamental equality between all people. Do unto others. It's really very simple ... until you find yourself compelled to change the rules to justify the God of the Bible.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Hi David,

    Your comment is entirely false. Everyone but Christians agree that genocide is immoral in all contexts. Christians are the ones who have their own set of morals that change whenever the Bible attributes actions to God that would be considered immoral in all other contexts.

    I am not aware of any inconsistency in my morals and no one has, to my knowledge, shown any such inconsistency. I do not have my "own set of morals." My morality is based on the foundation of Love and a recognition of fundamental equality between all people. Do unto others. It's really very simple ... until you find yourself compelled to change the rules to justify the God of the Bible.

    All the best,

    Richard
    Hello Richard

    I do not know why you say my comment is "entirely false". I think you just want to have the last word and object to anything I say. I am not going to argue. I was not directing my comments specifically to you or Rose; it was a general comment and you were not named. Your morals might not be unique to you and I agree you do not have your own set of morals. Non-believers in God have a separate set of morals based on humanism or whatever faith they hold. Morals can differ among humans as they appear to do between different nations. They are not God's morals.

    So-called Christians have different morals and this does not help the cause of Christians. If Christians want to apply a moral code to God, so be it; I am not likely to agree with Christians in general. I doubt God works to a written set of rules. God works according to His nature, God cannot be less than who He is and if we cannot see that God deals justly and mercifully and recompenses evil accordingly, then that is our problem; not God's.

    I simply state that humans should not liken God's morals to their own. I align myself to God's will and not to human thinking. Since there will always be this gulf between me and humanists, it is not worth my time discussing this topic with anyone so set in their ways as not to even try to understand God's justice and mercy and grace and recompense for evil.

    I might contribute to other posts on this subject, but it will not be to start a discussion. However, this is not to say, I will never discuss this topic with anyone ever again.

    All the best until we talk again in another thread.


    David
    Last edited by David M; 05-07-2012 at 02:52 AM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Richard

    I do not know why you say my comment is "entirely false". I think you just want to have the last word and object to anything I say. I am not going to argue. I was not directing my comments specifically to you or Rose; it was a general comment and you were not named. Your morals might not be unique to you and I agree you do not have your own set of morals. Non-believers in God have a separate set of morals based on humanism or whatever faith they hold. Morals can differ among humans as they appear to do between different nations. They are not God's morals.

    So-called Christians have different morals and this does not help the cause of Christians. If Christians want to apply a moral code to God, so be it; I am not likely to agree with Christians in general. I doubt God works to a written set of rules. God works according to His nature, God cannot be less than who He is and if we cannot see that God deals justly and mercifully and recompenses evil accordingly, then that is our problem; not God's.

    I simply state that humans should not liken God's morals to their own. I align myself to God's will and not to human thinking. Since there will always be this gulf between me and humanists, it is not worth my time discussing this topic with anyone so set in their ways as not to even try to understand God's justice and mercy and grace and recompense for evil.

    I might contribute to other posts on this subject, but it will not be to start a discussion. However, this is not to say, I will never discuss this topic with anyone ever again.

    All the best until we talk again in another thread.


    David
    Good morning David,

    I said you comment was "entirely false" because it is entirely false. You didn't need to "name" me because you wrote your comment to me, and said "I have given up arguing against humanist on this forum who have their own set of morals." You should have said something if you didn't mean to include me in that comment you wrote to me.

    I do not want the "last word." You and I disagree on many points. You object to things I say just as much as I object to things you say. This is why we have so much to talk about. It could be very fruitful for all concerned.

    You say "I'm not going to argue." We can discuss and debate without "arguing." That's how we learn. The problem is that you have opinions about morality that I do not think are well justified.

    You say "Non-believers in God have a separate set of morals based on humanism or whatever faith they hold." That's not true. True morals are universal and have absolutely nothing to do with any god. This should be obvious because the definition of "objective morality" is that it is not different for different people. That's how we determine moral absolutes. They do not change for different people. And this is why the immorality attributed to God is so obviously wrong. Christians CHANGE THEIR MORAL JUDGMENTS depending on the identity of the person. If humans commit genocide, it is immoral. If God commands genocide, it is not immoral. This is why Christian morality is so confused.

    If "God works according to His nature" the what are we to infer about his nature when he gives commands to slaughter babies, take 32,000 captive virgins, and allows a soldier to capture a women he desires, have sex with, and then reject her if she doesn't please him? And what are we to make of his nature if he produced a book as confused, flawed, and misleading as the Bible?

    You say "God deals justly and mercifully and recompenses evil accordingly." But that's not what we see in the Bible at all. How is a three year famine inflicted on the entire nation of Israel for the crimes of the previous king Saul an example of mercy or justice? It doesn't even look rational at all. And how is killing David's innocent baby merciful? And how is it just to let David commit adultery and murder with any punishment?

    When you say "I align myself to God's will and not to human thinking" you forget that all your opinions about God are based on your own "human thinking."

    You think it vain to discuss these things with folks who do not "understand God's justice and mercy and grace and recompense for evil." I think that's a dodge. The simple fact is that the Bible does not present God as being just or merciful in any consistent way. Indeed, the concept of "mercy" with regards to moral violations is by its very nature a violation of justice. Imagine if man raped and killed you wife. Then the judge felt "merciful" and let him go. How would you feel? Would you say that judge was just?

    You say "I will never discuss this topic with anyone ever again." I think that is a real pity. And I wonder if it is because you know that you cannot justify the morality of God in the Bible.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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