The Seven Headed Beast (kingdoms mountians)

[Beck]

To add to the understanding of the dragon/serpent of seven heads Leviathan which rise up off of the sea. As we have noted that the sea is used to denote evil and choas by the tossing back and forth motion. It is also associated with the deep and darkness as if it was a bottomless pit. The sea is a mysterious and unstable, and constantly changing forces in the world. The sea has no end to it's depth and disappears into a watery abyss. The sea can produce waves that shallow and destory ships and brings floods upon the land.

It is in this sence that the writers often used the sea and the dragon to denote an evil nation and it's king. For instance Isaiah and Ezekiel mention about Egypt , Assyria and it's connection to the dragon and Rahab.


EYGPT

Ezekiel 29:3-5
3Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.
4But I will put hooks in thy jaws, and I will cause the fish of thy rivers to stick unto thy scales, and I will bring thee up out of the midst of thy rivers, and all the fish of thy rivers shall stick unto thy scales.
5And I will leave thee thrown into the wilderness, thee and all the fish of thy rivers: thou shalt fall upon the open fields; thou shalt not be brought together, nor gathered: I have given thee for meat to the beasts of the field and to the fowls of the heaven.


Ezekiel 32:2
2Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say unto him, Thou art like a young lion of the nations, and thou art as a whale in the seas: and thou camest forth with thy rivers, and troubledst the waters with thy feet, and fouledst their rivers. 3Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will therefore spread out my net over thee with a company of many people; and they shall bring thee up in my net

BABYLON

Jer.51:34
34Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon hath devoured me, he hath crushed me, he hath made me an empty vessel, he hath swallowed me up like a dragon, he hath filled his belly with my delicates, he hath cast me out.

ASSYRIA

Isaiah 8:5-8
5The LORD spake also unto me again, saying,
6Forasmuch as this people refuseth the waters of Shiloah that go softly, and rejoice in Rezin and Remaliah's son;
7Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks: 8And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.

Therefore the seven headed beast of Revelation 13 represents the completion of the seven literal nations and their kings that should come out of the sea. There is no reason to assume that the seven heads are seven 'hills' of Rome. Hills or Mountains have been shown by Daniel to be kingdoms and not to denote any city that has hills. Some scholars claim that the seven 'hill's is to refer to Rome seven hills as the seven heads then claim that the seven kings are the seven Caesars.

Among the many problems with this view is the fact that there were far more than seven Caesars. With which Caesar do you begin? And with which one do you end? Who are the five Caesars who had fallen? Who was the one still ruling? Who was the one who had not yet come? Some of the Caesars ruled for long periods, some for a few months. After the death of Nero, three Caesars ruled within a two-year period, each being murdered.

Following the death of Alexander the Great, the Grecian Empire, over which he had ruled, was divided into four parts. Each part, though part of the whole of the Grecian Empire, was its own kingdom. This division of the Greek Empire into four parts is depicted in Daniel 7:6 as a leopard with four wings.

The leopard with four wings represents Alexander and his rapid conquest of much of the world. And the four heads of the leopard represent the division of his empire into four kingdoms ruled over by four of Alexander's generals. Cassander ruled over Macedonia, Lysimachus ruled over Thrace and Asia Minor, Seleucus ruled over Syria and Babylonia, and Ptolemy ruled over Egypt and Arabia.

The four "heads" on the beast represented four kingdoms which were part of the divided Grecian Empire (Dan. 8:21-22). John was told that the seven heads of the beast of Revelation 17 are seven mountains. Since we are told that heads equal kingdoms and heads are specifically said to be mountains then mountains should equal kingdoms.

Pslams 30:7
King David, in speaking of all the vicissitudes of his reign as king of Israel, wrote, "LORD, by thy favour thou hast made my mountain [kingdom] to stand strong"

continue......

[Beck]

If we understand that 'mountain' is an kingdom or government principality this might help us in determing the seven kingdoms. I would like to propose this image of the seven mountain kingdoms.


•EGYPT THE FIRST HEAD KINGDOM under Pharaoh



•BABYLON THE SECOND HEAD KINGDOM under Nebuchaddnezzar



•MEDIAN/PERSIAN THE THRID HEAD KINGDOM under Cyrus?



•GREECE THE FOURTH HEAD KINGDOM under Alexander (wounded to death and healed)



•SYRIA SELEUCID THE FIFTH HEAD KINGDOM under Antiochus IV Epiphances



•ROME THE SIXTH HEAD KINGDOM under Nero or Domitian


•BOTTOMLESS PIT THE SEVENTH HEAD KINGDOM under Abaddon / Apollyon

•LEVIATHAN IS THE EIGHT ONE OF THE SEVEN AND GOES INTO DESTUCTION (image of the Menorah)


If we take notice that in Revelation 9 John describes for us this beast kingdom. One that comes out of the depth of the sea here in verses 1-2 speak of it as an bottomless pit. To which an army comes off of and comes upon the earth to battle. Having a king over them as of Abaddon/Apollyon to mean a destroyer.

I propose this kingdom of darkness to be the seventh kingdom of an government principality rather than a literal country that is to invade Judah. This seventh king is coming out of the bottomless pit and his army of locust and scorpions will come and hurt men. This seventh king knows he has but a short time (Rev.17:10 & 20:3).

It is in this manner of deceptions, lies and wonders that these locust and scorpions come to hurt men that are not sealed. (Rev. 9:1-12) There power is in their mouth (false teachers and prophets) and in their tails. As elsewhere Jesus called the Phraisees and Sadducces that they were serpents and scropions and that they served their father the devil (dragon/ satan).

John is told what he had seen which was the beast that was (serpent in the garden) and is not (bound in the pit) and shall ascend out of the pit into destruction.

Therefore the beast that comes out of the sea seen by John is more that the Roman Emprie with it's Caesars as kings, but the history of the nations that have oppressed Judah with it's false gods. With the seventh kingdom being the kingdom of darkness that covered the earth which satan is said to have but a short time.

[Twospirits]

Beck wrote,

John is told what he had seen which was the beast that was (serpent in the garden) and is not (bound in the pit) and shall ascend out of the pit into destruction.

Therefore the beast that comes out of the sea seen by John is more that the Roman Emprie with it's Caesars as kings, but the history of the nations that have oppressed Judah with it's false gods. With the seventh kingdom being the kingdom of darkness that covered the earth which satan is said to have but a short time.

Hi Beck,

Could you be a bit more specific on who is the 7th kingdom of darkness? You seem to be saying it was Rome made up of these past nations that oppressed Israel, or am I wrong?

Twospirits

[Beck]

Hi Beck,

Could you be a bit more specific on who is the 7th kingdom of darkness? You seem to be saying it was Rome made up of these past nations that oppressed Israel, or am I wrong?

Twospirits

John saw the seventh kingdom coming out of the bottomless pit.(Rev.9) I take the understanding of 'bottomless pit, smoke, sea, deep, blindness, death, asleep and darkness' all to be relating to being deceived by false teachers. That said, I also think that this seventh kingdom follows the sixth kingdom. That IMO doesn't necessary mean that the sixth kingdom had to pass away first before this seventh kingdom comes to be.

These seven kingdom parallel with the four kingdoms that Daniel forseen. In Daniel's vision it was this fourth beast kingdom that would make war with the saints and prevail over them. The reasoning is that the king Antiochus IV force the Jewish people to worship his many gods and forsake the God of Israel. He take away their daily sacrifices and removed their high priests. It is in this hellenization of the Jewish people that would be considered to be the pit of darkness. That is the underline reason for the Menorah of lights which consist of eight days the celebration of deliverance. The book of Revelation imploys these same principles of seven, lights, darkness and creation.

So to address you question I would think that this kingdom of darkness was at the very beginning within these Gentile nations that would invade Judah. It would be in the sixth kingdom (Rome) that this kingdom of darkness (satan) would be bound by chains becasue the light of Christ has been revealed therefore the darkness was then casted into the pit. The kingdom of darkness would remain bound until a time when the army is released to come upon the earth to once again deceive the nations. It would be IMO that this time is what is said to be the short time given to Satan the devil that old serpent. If looking at some type of history I guess that would come in the years of Rome oppressing the Jews in Judah in 66AD until 70AD. At this time many had believed the lie by some fasle prophets that God had delivered them from their oppressor. When the Roman General Cestius left the city after his falled attempt to seige the city.

If we notice the final battle is when the Beast and False prophet (Leviathan and Behemoth)have been defeated it would also parallel with the Harlot Woman being destoryed. Which if we conclude that the Harlot rides upon the Roman Emprie it would not be a literaly defeat of the Roman Emprie, but one on a spiritual level. The key being that the gospel has then gone unto the heathren nations shining it light of truth into the darkness.

[Twospirits]

John saw the seventh kingdom coming out of the bottomless pit.(Rev.9) I take the understanding of 'bottomless pit, smoke, sea, deep, blindness, death, asleep and darkness' all to be relating to being deceived by false teachers. That said, I also think that this seventh kingdom follows the sixth kingdom. That IMO doesn't necessary mean that the sixth kingdom had to pass away first before this seventh kingdom comes to be.

These seven kingdom parallel with the four kingdoms that Daniel forseen. In Daniel's vision it was this fourth beast kingdom that would make war with the saints and prevail over them. The reasoning is that the king Antiochus IV force the Jewish people to worship his many gods and forsake the God of Israel. He take away their daily sacrifices and removed their high priests. It is in this hellenization of the Jewish people that would be considered to be the pit of darkness. That is the underline reason for the Menorah of lights which consist of eight days the celebration of deliverance. The book of Revelation imploys these same principles of seven, lights, darkness and creation.

So to address you question I would think that this kingdom of darkness was at the very beginning within these Gentile nations that would invade Judah. It would be in the sixth kingdom (Rome) that this kingdom of darkness (satan) would be bound by chains becasue the light of Christ has been revealed therefore the darkness was then casted into the pit. The kingdom of darkness would remain bound until a time when the army is released to come upon the earth to once again deceive the nations. It would be IMO that this time is what is said to be the short time given to Satan the devil that old serpent. If looking at some type of history I guess that would come in the years of Rome oppressing the Jews in Judah in 66AD until 70AD. At this time many had believed the lie by some fasle prophets that God had delivered them from their oppressor. When the Roman General Cestius left the city after his falled attempt to seige the city.

If we notice the final battle is when the Beast and False prophet (Leviathan and Behemoth)have been defeated it would also parallel with the Harlot Woman being destoryed. Which if we conclude that the Harlot rides upon the Roman Emprie it would not be a literaly defeat of the Roman Emprie, but one on a spiritual level. The key being that the gospel has then gone unto the heathren nations shining it light of truth into the darkness.

Hi Beck,

Thanks for replying, I asked because I see a few problems with your thesis if you don't mind me pointing them out to you. First, I agree that Rev 17 the seven heads exegetically should be seen as kingdoms for the reasons you gave, and as you may know I hold to that view. That they speak of prior kingdoms beginning with Egypt. But I see you go astray in your 2nd post, in giving the kingdom list you "exclude" Assyria. To be consistent, the list should be: 1. Egypt, 2. Assyria, 3. Babylon, 4. Medo-Persia, 5. Greece, 6. Rome, 7.---, 8.---. The kingdom of Antiochus was not a "kingdom proper" like the others but came from Alexander's kingdom divided. Note the statue of Daniel how it goes directly from the 3rd kingdom (Greece) to the 4th Rome. The same when it gave the description of the beasts (Dan. 7:3-7).

When we read Rev 17 we see the same thing, these are all seen as being literal kingdoms, and "distinct" from one another, whether they be prior kingdoms listed (5 prior to the existing kingdom, the 6th Rome) or future kingdoms listed (the 7th and 8th kingdom) to come. The context shows you cannot "literalize" the first 6 kingdoms and then spiritualize or symbolize the 7th and 8th kingdoms making them to be part of the 6th Rome. They must literally and "distinctly" be accounted for as seen in Rev 13, the beast kingdom from the sea (the one you say is from the pit of the Abyss) and the beast kingdom from the earth.

Hope this helps,

Twospirits

[Beck]

Hi Beck,

Thanks for replying, I asked because I see a few problems with your thesis if you don't mind me pointing them out to you.

No I don't have any problem with you pointing any over sights out.

First, I agree that Rev 17 the seven heads exegetically should be seen as kingdoms for the reasons you gave, and as you may know I hold to that view. That they speak of prior kingdoms beginning with Egypt. But I see you go astray in your 2nd post, in giving the kingdom list you "exclude" Assyria. To be consistent, the list should be: 1. Egypt, 2. Assyria, 3. Babylon, 4. Medo-Persia, 5. Greece, 6. Rome, 7.---, 8.---. The kingdom of Antiochus was not a "kingdom proper" like the others but came from Alexander's kingdom divided.

I stated it that way becasue it seem to imply that in John's vision it was those kingdoms that invaded Judah. There was only one kingdom that invaded the northern Israel. (Assyria) We would also have to understand that the northerns tribes of Israel where then carried away and became some of the same Gentile nations.

We would also have to consider that Daniel vision having the third beast kingdom discribing Greece (Rev.7:6)then another beast kingdom the fourth. That fourth beast kingdom would be from the divided kingdom of Greece which was the Northern King of Seleucid as Antiochus as the little horn. Daniel 11 makes this clear that in this vision of the south king and the north king it comes down to the two legs of the image given to Nebchaddnezzar. That northern king was Antiochus IV that took away the daily and that time given to his was a time, times and a half of time.

So therefore the fourth kingdom of Seleucid was accounted to Daniel as one that invaded Judah and could casue an abomination of desolation. We than would have those nations over the Jews as 1.Egypt 2.Babylon 3.Medo-Persia 4.Greece 5.Seleucid 6.Rome 7.darkness 8.leviathan

As to the invasion of the seventh kingdom of darkness it came upon the land of Israel as if it was locust devouring the land. (Rev.9:1-21,& Joel 1:1-20) That is much different than those earlier kingdoms that overcame the Jewish people. In the end this seventh kingdom of darkness would be an spiritual battle. That is how John vision of the war fought againts the army of the beast (Rev.19:11-21) it would be by the Word of God.

Note the statue of Daniel how it goes directly from the 3rd kingdom (Greece) to the 4th Rome. The same when it gave the description of the beasts (Dan. 7:3-7).

Not withstanding that the third kingdom Greece was divided into four and it was the same little horn in Daniel 7 that is interperted as the little horn in Daniel 8 which most scholars agree to be Antiochus IV. I think this understanding of Daniel's fourth beast kingdom is essential to the overall interpertation of Daniel's vision of the evenings and mornings. So I would not 'exclude' Seleucid as the fourth kingdom.

When we read Rev 17 we see the same thing, these are all seen as being literal kingdoms, and "distinct" from one another, whether they be prior kingdoms listed (5 prior to the existing kingdom, the 6th Rome) or future kingdoms listed (the 7th and 8th kingdom) to come. The context shows you cannot "literalize" the first 6 kingdoms and then spiritualize or symbolize the 7th and 8th kingdoms making them to be part of the 6th Rome. They must literally and "distinctly" be accounted for as seen in Rev 13, the beast kingdom from the sea (the one you say is from the pit of the Abyss) and the beast kingdom from the earth.

Hope this helps,

Twospirits

I see you concern about the six literal kingdoms then spiritualizing the seventh and eighth, but then that's a problem when trying to say that the beast was, and is not, yet is. How can one literal kingdom was in the pass and not here any more, but yet is still here literallly? I hope you see my point.

It was clear to Paul that a battle was at hand, but not of the literal physical kingdom. One of goverment, principlities, rulers in high places and against the power of darkness. (Ephesians 6:12) This is the image that John descibes in Revelation 9 of the army of locust. It is the battle of words in a simply sence. God words is of light and truth and these locust have power that comes out of the mouth as false teachers (Rev.9:3-19) of darkness.

[Twospirits]

Beck wrote,

I see you concern about the six literal kingdoms then spiritualizing the seventh and eighth, but then that's a problem when trying to say that the beast was, and is not, yet is. How can one literal kingdom was in the pass and not here any more, but yet is still here literallly? I hope you see my point.

I will only answer to this part of your post, because I don't want to get into a debate on your view of the fourth kingdom being the Seleucids, because I don't see it that way.

I do see the problem of spiritualizing and literalizing the kingdoms, but the context explains this 'was, is not, yet is.' Like the 6 kingdoms the 7th kingdom is a literal and distinct kingdom from the prior six. The 7th is also the 8th kingdom (Rev. 17:11) the beast of the sea and earth in Rev 13, the 7th and 8th beast).

Rev. 17:8 says, 'The beast that thou sawest was (what John saw in the wilderness while in spirit Rev. 17:3; the beast bound in the bottomless pit), and is not (for the beast was to be future to John's time); and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit,--.' And when he ascends out of the pit he shall be beheld-- 'when they behold the beast that was (in the pit and seen in John's vision), and is not (Rev. 17:11, at the time of John's vision 'and is not') and yet is (his 'wound was healed,' (Rev. 13:3) when he ascends from the pit).

'And the beast that was, and is not, even he IS the eighth, and is of the seven (is of the prior 6 kingdoms and the 7th when he appears),---.' This is the beast of the earth.

Rev. 13:11-12, 'And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spake as a dragon. (12) And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.'

Beck, I hope you can see now that these are distinct and literal kingdoms mentioned in Rev 17.

You said in your prior post:

It is in this manner of deceptions, lies and wonders that these locust and scorpions come to hurt men that are not sealed. (Rev. 9:1-12) There power is in their mouth (false teachers and prophets) and in their tails. As elsewhere Jesus called the Phraisees and Sadducces that they were serpents and scropions and that they served their father the devil (dragon/ satan).

John is told what he had seen which was the beast that was (serpent in the garden) and is not (bound in the pit) and shall ascend out of the pit into destruction.

Therefore the beast that comes out of the sea seen by John is more that the Roman Emprie with it's Caesars as kings, but the history of the nations that have oppressed Judah with it's false gods. With the seventh kingdom being the kingdom of darkness that covered the earth which satan is said to have but a short time.

Let me say that I agree with you here as to the meaning of Rev 9, the locusts out of the pit. The difference only being I see the 7th and 8th kingdom as being future from John time, you see it as fulfilled.

God bless---Twospirits

[Beck]

I will only answer to this part of your post, because I don't want to get into a debate on your view of the fourth kingdom being the Seleucids, because I don't see it that way.

Hi Twospirits,

I'm good not debating the fourth kingdom of Daniel as Seleucid or Rome at this time. We might can do that in some future discussion. What I would say it that we agree that in the vision by John of the seven headed beast that Rome is the sixth kingdom that John said that the kingdom "that is."

I do see the problem of spiritualizing and literalizing the kingdoms, but the context explains this 'was, is not, yet is.' Like the 6 kingdoms the 7th kingdom is a literal and distinct kingdom from the prior six. The 7th is also the 8th kingdom (Rev. 17:11) the beast of the sea and earth in Rev 13, the 7th and 8th beast).

I believe that the idea of the days of creation being six and on the seventh day was a day of rest. The seven 'completion' being used by this vision of the seven headed beast. Like the seventh day of creation wasn't a day were God created, but a separate day one of rest. I see this being implied in the vision that the seventh kingdom when he comes with his army from the abyss that kingdom would only be for a short time one of a spiritual warefare. Even if one claimed that Rome was the sixth and then following the Roman Emprie would come the seventh kingdom and that kingdom rule would be only a short time. That in itself could not be in our future neither could the eighth for it is one of the seven. If your claim that they are in concession and literal!

The beast that John saw was the same beast of the sea, but in this vision John sees a woman sitting on the beast. The messenger told John that the beast (Leviathan) was (in pass time such as in the beginning) and is not (becasue he has being bound in the pit) and yet is and shall ascend out of that pit (as the seventh and final kingdom)

If we see that the kingdoms themselves are darkness I think that might be the misunderstanding. It would not be the kingdoms themselves, but their false gods. In the context of the beast of the sea especally the sixth kingdom of Rome where it has the religious cults aka to the beast of the earth forcing the people to worship the beast of the sea ( Satan/Leviathan). There also would be the Harlot that sits on this beast of the sea which casues the nations to fornicate causing the people to go after these false gods.

So since John was revealed things which must soon come to pass (Rev. 1:1) I don't see any reason to think that any future seventh and eight kingdom has be disconnected from the onces consecutive kingdoms.

Rev. 17:8 says, 'The beast that thou sawest was (what John saw in the wilderness while in spirit Rev. 17:3; the beast bound in the bottomless pit), and is not (for the beast was to be future to John's time); and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit,--.' And when he ascends out of the pit he shall be beheld-- 'when they behold the beast that was (in the pit and seen in John's vision), and is not (Rev. 17:11, at the time of John's vision 'and is not') and yet is (his 'wound was healed,' (Rev. 13:3) when he ascends from the pit).

'And the beast that was, and is not, even he IS the eighth, and is of the seven (is of the prior 6 kingdoms and the 7th when he appears),---.' This is the beast of the earth.

No where does John vision imply that the seventh nor the eight kingdom is the beast of the earth. It was speaking of the seven headed beast of the sea. Just a the eighth candle is one of the seven on the Menorah. The beast of the sea is Leviathan an seven headed dragon (Isaiah 27:1) also in Greek Mythology as Hydra. Yet the beast of the earth is Behemoth they are not one and the same.

Rev. 13:11-12, 'And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spake as a dragon. (12) And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.'

Beck, I hope you can see now that these are distinct and literal kingdoms mentioned in Rev 17.

Yes as a false prophet or Behemoth as in Job 40:15-24 eating the earth up, but never as a literal kingdom. The kingdom or mountain of the seventh / eighth kingdom/ king is one of goverment, principalities, powers of darkness in high places. As sated earlier that don't necessary mean it has to be a literal kingdom as per Ephesians 6:12.

Let me say that I agree with you here as to the meaning of Rev 9, the locusts out of the pit. The difference only being I see the 7th and 8th kingdom as being future from John time, you see it as fulfilled.

God bless---Twospirits

Well it's being good for me in discussing it help me define my thoughts on this subject. I wonder if you have every read the myths of the Babylonians or the Canaanites? I find them very intriguing in hopes to gain a better undersatnding. Here is one page that I have bookmarked just in case you are interested. Yahweh’s Conflict with the Leviathan and Sea (PDF)

[Beck]

I was at least hoping that Rose would come and join this discussion. I remember when I first came across this forum around July of 2010 that I read this thread The -4-Beast -of- Daniel 7 and Revelation from Rose which at the time seem to fit very well, but after two years studying I've come to a different conclusion. I no longer see Revelation in reference to the beast having seven heads as seven kings from Rome, but seven mountain kingdoms.

[highflyertoo]

I was at least hoping that Rose would come and join this discussion. I remember when I first came across this forum around July of 2010 that I read this thread The -4-Beast -of- Daniel 7 and Revelation from Rose which at the time seem to fit very well, but after two years studying I've come to a different conclusion. I no longer see Revelation in reference to the beast having seven heads as seven kings from Rome, but seven mountain kingdoms.

Hello Beck.

The seven heads are seven fallen angel kings who joined the Dragon to fight against the holy host of Heaven....

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.


Only supernatural beings such as fallen angels (demon spirits) are able to fly in Heaven to fight against the spirit saints....

I tell you the answer to a mystery,the seven heads after being defeated in Heaven and cast down to the Earth arise again by taking on the form of humans,and so appearing as normal looking people.Do not under estimate the power of evil's ability to perform similar miracles as the Messiah did. For the Messiah who was a spirit did come in the form of flesh,being born of a woman. So to the seven heads entering into the world do so in the same manner by being conceived in women and so are born as normal looking human babies. They are of the Fourth Beast Kingdom which is far more diverse than the three previous Beasts mentioned in Daniel 7:1-6