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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silence View Post
    I just found this explanation for the wedding feast/wilderness apparent contradiction. In reading the passage in John it is easy to assume that the baptism John is describing to those who were sent from the Jewish leaders had just occurred, since it is described in dramatic ways. But there could easily have been a time gap intervening.

    http://www.apologeticspress.org/apco...=6&article=780
    I agree that there is no obvious contradiction there. John's gospel says nothing about the timing of the baptism relative to the wedding. I'm surprised anyone could fail to notice this.

    Of course, there is a world of contradictions between John and the Synoptics. John doesn't even mention major players from the other Gospels, such as James. And it is impossible to harmonize the four accounts of the passion week. And the accounts of the calling of the first four disciples doesn't use the same names, etc., etc., etc.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I agree that Jesus quotes this verse, as it is the only verse in the OT that matches closely. We can agree that Zech 13:5,6 is talking of an apostate prophet. This shows that verse 6; And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends cannot apply to Jesus. At least we agree this verse should not be taken out of context and applied to Jesus. On balance, as difficult as the figurative language in chapter 13 is to understand, I would say that chapter 13 applies to the time of Jesus. The verse I quoted from chapter 14 goes on to speak of future events occurring after the time of Jesus' first ministry and beyond AD70.
    Good morning David,

    I don't see how anyone could have any certainty about that passage (Zech 13:5-6). There is mixed testimony amongst the commentators. For example, here is what Matthew Henry said:
    Some good interpreters, observing how soon this comes after the mention of Christ’s being pierced, think that these are the words of that great prophet, not of the false prophet spoken of before. Christ was wounded in his hands, when they were nailed to the cross, and, after his resurrection, he had the marks of these wounds; and here he tells how he came by them; he received them as a false prophet, for the chief priests called him a deceiver, and upon that account would have him crucified; but he received them in the house of his friends—the Jews, who should have been his friends; for he came to his own, and, though they were his bitter enemies, yet he was pleased to call them his friends, as he did Judas (Friend, wherefore hast thou come?) because they forwarded his sufferings for him; as he called Peter Satan—an adversary, because he dissuaded him from them.
    As with almost everything in the Bible, we have no way to confirm or deny anyone's interpretation. Just more words, words, words that folks conjure up to attempt to support whatever opinion they like. It's a lot like Isaiah 7:14 which was lifted from context and applied to Jesus. There is nothing in that text that supports that interpretation.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    And another point: the same passage speaks of animal sacrifices. So either you are not interpreting that passage literally, or you are assuming that there will be animal sacrifices in the future commanded by God. Most Christians would consider that blasphemous in light of Christ as the final sacrifice to which all the OT sacrifices pointed as type, such as the Passover Lamb.
    If you look at the prophecy again, it is about the Feast of Tabernacles; it is not about sacrifices for sin. The Feast of Tabernacles was one of three mandated feasts the Israelites had to keep. The Feast of Tabernacles was to celebrate their deliverance from Egypt. The Jews continue to celebrate this feast to this day. If the Feast of Tabernacles is to continue, I see the sense in that. It ensures the deliverance that God has afforded to those in the past, and will do so again, when Christ returns is remembered. Killing an animal to celebrate the feast is not sacrificing an animal for sin. Yes, an animal is killed and is classed as a sacrifice, but the animal does not go to waste, and is eaten as food. When Christ returns, there is nothing to say everyone will stop eating meat. Animals are sacrificed every day to keep us alive by giving us food to eat.
    I wasn't talking about that specific verse, but rather the one that follows in verse 21 in the same chapter:
    Zechariah 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
    I thought you would recognize this because I mentioned "animal sacrifices." It seems pretty obvious that this is symbolic language, especially since it talks about "no more Canaanites" in the "House of the Lord." Taking Zechariah 14 literally is not justified from a Biblical point of view in my estimation.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Your entire paradigm is based on the fundamental error of failing to understand how Christ is the fulfillment of the OT types.
    I understand more than you give me credit for. Look in the mirror before you make these judgment calls.
    Yes, I'm sure you have plenty of knowledge. But when it comes to typology, it seems clear from your writings that you often ignore the fulfillment of types in Christ and the Church in favor of literal interpretations. This is the primary error of the "Futurist" paradigm. I didn't mean to impugn all your knowledge in all things. I'm sorry I was not more clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    According to Christianity, Christ is the True Temple, the True Priest, and the True Temple. Your paradigm denies these fundamental teachings..
    Christ is the Head of the Church(Eph 5:23), Christ is the Mediator between God and man(1 Tim 2:5). Jesus is our High Priest after the order of Melchisedec (Heb 7:17). But he spake of the temple of his body(John 2:21) .
    I am not aware my paradigm (as you like to think it is) denies these things. I accept them. Therefore, if I have a paradigm, it is not what you say it is.
    But you deny that Christ and His Church fulfilled the prophecies and are looking for future fulfillment in carnal Israel. That's what I was trying to point out.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I agree that there are big fish to fry and this was by no means a small fish. I hope you take note of my answers in reply to your assertions.
    I hope I took proper note of your answers.

    All the best,

    Richard
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silence View Post
    I just found this explanation for the wedding feast/wilderness apparent contradiction. In reading the passage in John it is easy to assume that the baptism John is describing to those who were sent from the Jewish leaders had just occurred, since it is described in dramatic ways. But there could easily have been a time gap intervening.

    http://www.apologeticspress.org/apco...=6&article=780
    Absolutely. It's not easy and maybe not that important to try to look at the Gospels in a perfect chronological sequence. It's strange didn't Jesus meet some of it's disciples before he was 40 days in the wilderness when John had introduced them to Jesus?

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    I agree. That was the position I held as Preterist. The destruction of the false prophets fits well with 70 AD. But still, it doesn't really seem like much of a "prophecy" since it is so vague.

    It seems pretty speculative that Nero would have known about the book of Revelation even if it was written pre-70 AD (which seems pretty likely since it doesn't mention the destruction of the Temple).
    The prophecies about Rome as the fourth beast were in Dan and thus in Deut 32 [as being the enemies of the last generation of Israel] rather than Revelation.

    Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
    Babylonian Talmud
    ""When Nero came to the Holy Land, he tried his fortune by belemnomancy thus:—He shot an arrow eastward, and it fell upon Jerusalem; he discharged his shafts towards the four points of the compass, and every time they fell upon Jerusalem. After this he met a Jewish boy, and said unto him, "Repeat to me the text thou hast learned to-day." The boy repeated, "I will lay my vengeance upon Edom (i.e., Rome) by the hand of my people Israel" (Ezek. xxv. 14).

    [This happened in 68? when the Roman forces were decimated after Cestuis Gallus retreated. ] and later.

    Then said Nero, "The Holy One—blessed be He!—has determined to destroy His Temple and then avenge Himself on the agent by whom its ruin is wrought." Thereupon Nero fled and became a Jewish proselyte, and Rabbi Meir is of his race
    Agreed that the prophecy seems vague, but perhaps it will be less vague at some-time in the future when word meanings or understandings become more associated and defined. Remember, it was you who taught me that the 'sea' was a reference to gentiles or to areas outside the 'land' of Israel. Sometimes understanding is a growing process.

    A few points that I can see being fulfilled from chapter 13.

    In agreement that the ending of prophets after Jesus; vs 8-13 would be a judgment on false prophets [as mentioned in Deut 18] who would continute to prophecy positively concerning national Israel or that they were the Christ. The nation was coming to an end as well as the fulfillment of prophecies concerning it.

    In verse 5 it says:
    But he shall say, I [am] no prophet, I [am] an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.

    This seems to be a reversion and restoration to the pre-mosaic covenant man of Jacob. In essence saying ' I'm not a man of national Israel, I'm a wandering shepherd like Jacob [Deut 32:9-14]

    I'm not a corporal, religious, legalistic man, but a natural, individual man who's encountered and been approved by the living God.

    This is the same "Jacob" in Is 59:20 and Romans 11:26

    vs 6 then says: And [one] shall say unto him, [this same non national covenant man 'Jacob'] What [are] these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, [Those] with which I was wounded [in] the house of my friends.

    Deut 32:19, Isaiah 66:5, 59:9-16, 2 Cor 11:23-26, Gal 6:17, recorded history as well as Jesus' foretellings in the Olivet indicate that there was a persecution towards those who had left judaism for faith in the new prophet.

    In verse 8: And it shall come to pass, [that] in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off [and] die; but the third shall be left therein.

    This could refer to those of the Chistians. If 144,000 [Revelation]represents those who died in the persecutions; then the general population of Christians at the beginning of those persecutions could have been about 206,000.

    -----------------------------------

    Another example of the events of 30 AD being a example of a larger event in 70 AD is that the Resurrected Christ was seen by his disciples and then by 120 or more. To them, it was also the resurrection and validating of the truths of his words and his entity. In late 60's AD the persecution took its toll on the saints, even perhaps invoking the image that those believers would die [cease existence] The end of the persecution and the judgment upon the jewish persecutors of the Christians would have been a resurrection and proving of the ordinaces of the new covenant. "EVERY EYE" would witness this in contrast with his appearing to a limited number of people after his crucifiction.

    Food for thought.
    Last edited by EndtimesDeut32/70AD; 04-24-2012 at 01:21 PM.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
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  5. #25
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    Other than Daniel 2 and Daniel 9, what prophecies can we be sure are definitively Messianic? Isaiah 53 is problematic considering the greater context going back to chapter 51. The Genesis 3 head/heel declaration is very vague and for all intents and purposes could be a literal description of the human/serpent relationship after the serpent was cursed as opposed to some metaphorical deeper meaning.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by throwback View Post
    Other than Daniel 2 and Daniel 9, what prophecies can we be sure are definitively Messianic? Isaiah 53 is problematic considering the greater context going back to chapter 51. The Genesis 3 head/heel declaration is very vague and for all intents and purposes could be a literal description of the human/serpent relationship after the serpent was cursed as opposed to some metaphorical deeper meaning.
    Deut 18 [new prophet] Gen 49 [Shiloh] Isaiah 65:1 [Behold me, see me; behold me, touich me] Isaiah 61 [by his own quoting of it]

    Gen 3:15 is the mother prophecy to cancel the law of sin and spiritual seperation and joy/meaning of life. [Rom 8:2]. Gen 3:15 is referred as "my covenant" to Noah and Abraham [Sara being a foretype] and as 'the' or 'a' covenant of Dan 9:26. Duet 30:5-19 and Ez 36 and Jer 31 develop the covenant indicate an indwelling of the spirit and a open, fearless exposure of the heart and life to the Living God due to his approving incarnation. {John 3:16-18,36] Gen 3:15 is associated in Isaiah 59:5. and by Lamach proclamation of faith in Gen 4:23 Through these developments, it becomes less vague in it's meaning. It is the proving and evidence of the living God and his nature. [John 17:3]
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

  7. #27
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    We must also consider Zechariah 9:9. For based on that passage, the gospels make the claim that Jesus' triumphant entry into Jerusalem before Passover on the donkey(?) was a fulfillment of this text.
    But, after looking at the context of Zechariah 9, I doubt that is the case. Consider it:

    Here is a proclamation… it's the word of Jehovah against the land of [the God] HadRach, and against Damascus, where they offer sacrifices [to him]. For, Jehovah inspects all men, not just the tribes of IsraEl. 2 [This proclamation is also against] the area around HamAth, as well as Tyre and Sidon, for they all have the same mindset.
    3 'Tyre built a fortress for herself… she treasured up silver like dust, and gathered up gold like mud in the streets. 4 So, she'll be inherited by Jehovah. He'll strike down her power over the seas, and she'll be consumed in a fire.
    5 'AshKelon will see this and fear, and Gaza will be very grieved. EkRon will be shamed by her errors; for, their king will perish from Gaza, and no way will AshKelon be lived in. 6 Foreigners will move into AshDod; for, I'll demolish the insolence of the Philistines. 7 I'll remove all the blood from their mouths, and the disgusting things in their teeth. They'll leave such things for your God, and be assigned to a general from Judah… as happened to the people of Jebusi; so Ekron will be.

    8 'Then I'll stand in My [Temple] in the heights, and from there I won't leave. No way will [armies] march on them, for My eyes will watch over them.
    9 'So rejoice, O daughter of Zion! Shout aloud, JeruSalem's daughter! For, look! Your king is now coming to you… the righteous one who's your savior. He's gentle, and on a beast of burden is riding to you… even upon a young foal. 10 He'll destroy [all of] Ephraim's chariots, as well as JeruSalem's horses. He'll destroy [all the weapons] of warfare… from the nations he'll bring an abundance and peace. Then he'll rule to the waters of the seas… from the rivers and passes of the earth.
    11 'Then, by the blood of your Sacred Agreement, you'll [buy] captives [back] from dry pits. 12 Those who were captives you'll settle in forts; and for each day that they [were imprisoned], I will repay them with double. 13 For, I've held you tight to Myself, O Judah… [yes, as tight] as a bow.

    Ephraim will be full once again, and I'll awaken your children, O Zion, against the sons of the Greeks… like a warrior's sword I will use them. 14 Then the Lord will be seen as their leader, and he'll [shoot] His arrows like lightning. The trumpet will be blown by Jehovah our God, which will send intimidation [upon them]. 15 Then the Almighty Jehovah will serve as your shield, as you bring [destruction] upon them. Upon them your [sons] will heap sling stones, and drink their blood as though it were wine… like basins for the Altar they'll fill their bowls.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by EndtimesDeut32/70AD View Post
    Deut 18 [new prophet] Gen 49 [Shiloh] Isaiah 65:1 [Behold me, see me; behold me, touich me] Isaiah 61 [by his own quoting of it]

    Gen 3:15 is the mother prophecy to cancel the law of sin and spiritual seperation and joy/meaning of life. [Rom 8:2]. Gen 3:15 is referred as "my covenant" to Noah and Abraham [Sara being a foretype] and as 'the' or 'a' covenant of Dan 9:26. Duet 30:5-19 and Ez 36 and Jer 31 develop the covenant indicate an indwelling of the spirit and a open, fearless exposure of the heart and life to the Living God due to his approving incarnation. {John 3:16-18,36] Gen 3:15 is associated in Isaiah 59:5. and by Lamach proclamation of faith in Gen 4:23 Through these developments, it becomes less vague in it's meaning. It is the proving and evidence of the living God and his nature. [John 17:3]
    I have been studying the prophecies and have been surprised that some of what has been accepted as Messianic, is in fact not. Deuteronomy 18 for example was covered in post 13 on page 2 of this thread. Looking at Jeremiah, we must consider the greater context and starting with Jeremiah 23, a passage that Jews use to say Jesus did not fulfill and therefore was not the Messiah. What we can see from studying it is that it is perhaps more likely speaking of a prior king of Israel or Messianic figure like King Cyrus. Maybe it's better applied to King Hezekiah or Nehemiah and is no way Messianic. It reads:

    O you shepherds who scatter; you who're destroying the sheep of my pasture; Jehovah (the God of IsraEl) has made [this pronouncement], against the shepherds who are tending His people: 2 'You have scattered My sheep; You have pushed them away, and refused to [watch over] them. So, {Look!} I will take vengeance upon you, for the wicked things that you've done. 3 Then, from the whole the earth I will gather, those who are left of My people (wherever I may have pushed them), and bring them [back] to their pastures, where they will grow and multiply. 4 Then I will raise shepherds to tend them, so they will not fear or know terror, nor will they be searched for [again],' says Jehovah.
    5 'Look! The days are coming,' says Jehovah, 'when I'll bring a righteous dawning to David, and an understanding king will then reign, who'll bring what's righteous and fair to the land. 6 During his days, Judah will be saved, and IsraEl will camp in submission. Then by Jehovah, he'll be called JoSedek (Jehovah is Our Righteousness).'7 'And because of this, {Look!} days will come,' says Jehovah, 'when they will no longer be saying: As Jehovah – He who led IsraEl from Egypt – is alive, 8 but rather, As Jehovah – He who gathered and led IsraEl's seed, from the lands in the north, and from everywhere they had been pushed to, and then restored them to their own land – is alive.'
    Another place in scripture that is thought to be Messianic is Jeremiah 32, but after reading it in its surrounding context, I'm not so convinced. In the greater context it looks as if the prophet was speaking about the Babylonian captivity that would overtake the Jews and their subsequent regathering to the land afterwards in a time of Peace under a king of their own. It parallels substantially with Ezekiel 37 as both talk about a regathering of the house of Israel and Judah under a single kind of David's line and God strengthening a covenant of peace with them.
    Many look at these as Messianic passages and believe that they illustrate that the Messiah would be a ruler over a united Isreal in a time of endless peace as all the hearts of the people will be turned to God. What gets ignored though is what is written in Jeremiah 33 about this same covenant. Verse 20 speaks of the people having the opportunity to annul the covenant. If the people would annul by turning their hearts from God it goes on to say that there won't be a need for them to concern themselves with sons of David who will continuously reign.

    By the time we get to Micah, it appears that what had been spoken of by Ezekial and Jeremiah has transpired as we have a united Jacob and remnants of the house of Israel together under the same leadership.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by throwback View Post
    We must also consider Zechariah 9:9. For based on that passage, the gospels make the claim that Jesus' triumphant entry into Jerusalem before Passover on the donkey(?) was a fulfillment of this text.
    But, after looking at the context of Zechariah 9, I doubt that is the case. Consider it:
    Here is a proclamation… it's the word of Jehovah against the land of [the God] HadRach, and against Damascus, where they offer sacrifices [to him]. For, Jehovah inspects all men, not just the tribes of IsraEl. 2 [This proclamation is also against] the area around HamAth, as well as Tyre and Sidon, for they all have the same mindset.
    3 'Tyre built a fortress for herself… she treasured up silver like dust, and gathered up gold like mud in the streets. 4 So, she'll be inherited by Jehovah. He'll strike down her power over the seas, and she'll be consumed in a fire.
    5 'AshKelon will see this and fear, and Gaza will be very grieved. EkRon will be shamed by her errors; for, their king will perish from Gaza, and no way will AshKelon be lived in. 6 Foreigners will move into AshDod; for, I'll demolish the insolence of the Philistines. 7 I'll remove all the blood from their mouths, and the disgusting things in their teeth. They'll leave such things for your God, and be assigned to a general from Judah… as happened to the people of Jebusi; so Ekron will be.

    8 'Then I'll stand in My [Temple] in the heights, and from there I won't leave. No way will [armies] march on them, for My eyes will watch over them.
    9 'So rejoice, O daughter of Zion! Shout aloud, JeruSalem's daughter! For, look! Your king is now coming to you… the righteous one who's your savior. He's gentle, and on a beast of burden is riding to you… even upon a young foal. 10 He'll destroy [all of] Ephraim's chariots, as well as JeruSalem's horses. He'll destroy [all the weapons] of warfare… from the nations he'll bring an abundance and peace. Then he'll rule to the waters of the seas… from the rivers and passes of the earth.
    11 'Then, by the blood of your Sacred Agreement, you'll [buy] captives [back] from dry pits. 12 Those who were captives you'll settle in forts; and for each day that they [were imprisoned], I will repay them with double. 13 For, I've held you tight to Myself, O Judah… [yes, as tight] as a bow.

    Ephraim will be full once again, and I'll awaken your children, O Zion, against the sons of the Greeks… like a warrior's sword I will use them. 14 Then the Lord will be seen as their leader, and he'll [shoot] His arrows like lightning. The trumpet will be blown by Jehovah our God, which will send intimidation [upon them]. 15 Then the Almighty Jehovah will serve as your shield, as you bring [destruction] upon them. Upon them your [sons] will heap sling stones, and drink their blood as though it were wine… like basins for the Altar they'll fill their bowls.
    I agree. The context does not appear to have anything to do with Jesus. Indeed, it really doesn't make any sense to me at all. It begins by talking about all the surrounding nations, even as far as Syria: "The burden of the word of the LORD in the land of Hadrach, and Damascus shall be the rest thereof: when the eyes of man, as of all the tribes of Israel, shall be toward the LORD. 2 And Hamath also shall border thereby; Tyrus, and Zidon, though it be very wise. 3 And Tyrus did build herself a strong hold, and heaped up silver as the dust, and fine gold as the mire of the streets" What's that supposed to mean? And then it says "Behold, the Lord will cast her out, and he will smite her power in the sea; and she shall be devoured with fire. 5 Ashkelon shall see it, and fear; Gaza also shall see it, and be very sorrowful, and Ekron; for her expectation shall be ashamed; and the king shall perish from Gaza, and Ashkelon shall not be inhabited." When did Ashkelon and Gaza see anything like that?

    It seems this "prophecy" was lifted out of context and applied to Christ with no good reason at all.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by throwback View Post
    I have been studying the prophecies and have been surprised that some of what has been accepted as Messianic, is in fact not. Deuteronomy 18 for example was covered in post 13 on page 2 of this thread.
    I agree that the context of Deut 18 does not suggest it had anything to do with Jesus, but that didn't stop Peter from applying it to Christ in no uncertain terms in Acts 3:22. So what are we to make of this? It looks like Peter and the other apostles felt free to lift OT Scriptures out of context and apply them to Jesus no matter if there was any textual validity at all. Why then should we believe what is written? That's the real question. We have all been like zombies - taking the Bible as the "Word of God" without any reason at all, and completely ignoring all the evidence that it is clearly the "word of man." If God really wanted to make Deut 18 a prophecy of Jesus, why wasn't he more clear? And if we would be wrong to lift passages out of context, why did God inspire the writers of the NT to do it so frequently? It's like a teacher telling a student never to cheat, and then doing it himself all day in front of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by throwback View Post
    Looking at Jeremiah, we must consider the greater context and starting with Jeremiah 23, a passage that Jews use to say Jesus did not fulfill and therefore was not the Messiah. What we can see from studying it is that it is perhaps more likely speaking of a prior king of Israel or Messianic figure like King Cyrus. Maybe it's better applied to King Hezekiah or Nehemiah and is no way Messianic.
    Agreed. But the words "THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Jer 23:6) fit the doctrine of Christ so nicely! Who could resist applying them to Christ. I know I did when I studied this passage years ago. Unfortunately, all that these out-of-context proof-texts really do is to hijack the presumed authority of the Bible to support the NT doctrines.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
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