Hi David,Hello Rose
At last you bring up the basis on which we fundamentally disagree. However, to answer your questions, we have to agree the definition of the words moral and morality.
Whatever I say will get pounced on by you and Richard, and I will try to keep this short.
If we consider morality to be based on a system of rules for right and wrong living, then the question is; whose system of rules do we live by?
If we live by your rules (Rose's and Richards) then God-bashing as you appear to be doing is not immoral. And I will agree with your answers above, because we would be living by your rules. I expect most of your rules are good (it would be good for you to define your own top-ten rules). I choose not to live by your rules.
Of course by your rules (when they are defined) you can say that I am being immoral for not following your rules. This is the nub of the problem.
The problem humans have is; accepting God's rules. If I break God's rules, I am being immoral in God's eyes, so to answer your questions in this context, I have to say, "yes" instead of "no" to all your questions above.
The question comes down to; whose rules should we live by? It now becomes a contest of whose rules are best in terms of quality of life, living a peaceful and happy life, instead of strife, and hatred and killings etc.
The fact is, whether we like it or not, God has laid down a set of rules for humans. The fact that human society has incorporated those rules into its own system of rules must mean that those rules have value. Maybe, humans would have come up with something close if starting from scratch, but would have left out the first three commandments say.
I have to make a choice of whose systems of rules I live by. If you ask me to explain why I choose God's system of rules, we get back to arguing as we are doing, because you will not agree with my reasons. If you do not believe in God, you do not have to follow His system of rules. Your morality is right in your own eyes. This was the problem in olden times when everyone did that which was right in their own eyes and lead to disaster. God saw that human morality was not good. Humans did not make for themselves a good set of rules to follow. The 10 commandments were later given as a basis to live by.
God proved by the provision of His Son, born of the virgin Mary, that it was possible to live by His laws. Jesus came to fulfil the law. Jesus has already shown us by example, the life we should lead. Jesus moral code was summed up in the two great commandments about which he said; "on these hang all the law and the prophets".
So, in conclusion to keep this short and to wind up my inital thoughts, I say this; I continue to base my life on God's rules and that is what God shall judge me by. I am also bound by the laws of the country I live in, as long as there is no conflict with God's rules and then I would have to obey God's rule. It is a separate debate as to whose rules are have the higher moral standard. As it is, I believe in God (for reasons R & R disagree) and because I believe God has ultimate power and knows what is in each and every individual heart, I let myself be guided by God and live by His rules. Fundamentally, I find nothing to disagree with in God's rules.
One final point in conclusion. The problem is humans have been given free choice and this goes for the system of rules they want to live by. God has set the rules for humans and we are free to disagree and set our own. God is not bound by the rules He has set for humans. God can do anything He wants to and God is not immoral by His rules (only as humans perceive them).
God has also told humans the consequences for breaking His rules. We might object to the consequences, but then we are powerless to change that. God has proved in His word, that he does that which He has promised and that which He has stated. We might disagree, but then as I recall hearing; "when you can make your own planet, you can do things your way".
So the real problem at the heart of this is; whose set of values (rules) is best for us to live by; God's or R & R's ?
I wanted to acknowledge that I read your post, but since Richard said pretty much the same thing that I would have said I will let his post stand as a response on my behalf. Thank you, I do appreciate your taking the time to respond to my post...
All the best,