RAM, If Full Preterism is so good, why did you give up Full Preterism? Now Come Back, Come Back, Come Back! I would rather that you return as a Full Preterist than to remain as a Non-theist or Atheist, whatever you name it. I have a feeling you didn't want to give up Full Preterism which is why you talks so highly of Full Pretertism but yet claimed yourself as a Non-theist or Atheist. As such, you are still a Full Preterist, if so just be man and admit it rather than hide under the cloak of Non-theism and Atheism. Just say I am Back Everyone!You did not answer my question. Where do you get the idea that the prophecy in Revelation spans thousands of years? There is nothing in the text to suggest that, let alone prove it. Where did that idea come from? Why should anyone believe it?
Yes, the meaning of the beast would have been obvious - it represents an evil government opposed to God's people. Any first century Jew would have understood it as a symbol of Rome. Things like the vials were obvious too - they represent God pouring out his wrath (judgment). There are, of course, plenty of details that remain ambiguous (especially to folks 2000 yeas removed from the events), but the Big Picture is pretty plain. The two women represent carnal (harlot) vs. heavenly (bride) Jerusalem, just as Paul explained the allegory of the two women in Galatians 4 represent carnal (Hagar) vs. heavenly (Sarah) Jerusalem. It's all so very simply, any child could understand ... unless his mind has been filled with unbiblical Futurist speculations and false doctrines.
You didn't answer my question. Why did the disciples immediately connect the destruction of the temple with the coming of Messiah and the end of the age? The answer should be obvious. The Jews understood the destruction of the Temple would mark the coming of Messiah and the day of judgment. Jesus had already told them that John the Baptist - who announced that Jesus was the Messiah - had fulfilled the prophecy of the Elijah who would come before the "great and dreadful day of the LORD." Here is how Donald Hagner explains these facts in the Word Biblical Commentary:As far as the apostles were concerned, the ominous words of Jesus concerning the destruction of the temple could point in only one direction: to the experiencing of the eschatological judgment. This was a subject to which Jesus had often alluded in his teaching ministry and therefore something they may well have expected him to indicate. They were accordingly eager to know how soon this might occur and what sign they might anticipate to indicate its approach. Their concern was not one of idle curiosity, for mere information’s sake, but concern that they might be properly prepared for the time of judgment. From their perspective, the destruction of the temple must have meant the coming again of Jesus, not as he now was with them when his glory was veiled but as the clearly revealed Son of God for all to see.These facts seem so obvious to me I marvel how futurists can't see them at all. The only way they can make room for Futurism is to shred the text. Thus, they try to separate the disciples questions into three when they were in fact one. It is totally obvious that the disciples were asking a single WHEN question - WHEN would the ESCHATOLOGICAL EVENT involving the destruction of the Temple, the coming of Messiah, and the end of the age happen? That was the question they asked, and that was the question Jesus answered when he said - THIS GENERATION. It's all so very simple, clear, and obvious, especially when compared with the convoluted speculations, inventions, and denials of Scripture required to support Futurism.
It is "nit-picking" when the analysis is used to avoid the plain and obvious meaning of the text that is supported by many mutually confirming verses. It's "straining at gnats" while "swallowing a camel."
If you can see the typology of Babylon, then you should be able to see how it applies to apostate Israel who opposed God, killed the Messiah, and persecuted the people of God. This fits perfectly with totality of the testimony of Scripture which says the events in Revelation would happen "soon" because the "time is at hand." And this fits perfectly with Christ's statement that everything would be fulfilled during the "days of vengeance" when the Temple and Jerusalem were destroyed. And this is confirmed by history.
The irony comes from the inconsistency of the Futurist doctrines. On the one hand, they claim to be taking the Bible literally, while on the other they consistently deny what it plainly written.
I present Preterism as the best fit to the Biblical and historical data. I don't know if it is "true" or not. If it is true, then it is the best evidence for fulfilled prophecy and hence, the best evidence for the truth of the Bible. And that's another profound irony. The Futurist position is aligned with the atheists who reject the prophecies as fulfilled. They read what the Bible plainly states about the first century coming of Messiah, and agree with the Futurists that it didn't happen and so conclude that it is proof that Jesus was a failed apocalyptic prophet and the Bible is false. In other words, Futurists destroy the only solid objectively verifiable evidence that could prove the Bible. I find that extremely ironic.
The fulfillment of the combined prophecies of Daniel and Christ in 70 AD are provide the only hard evidence that proves the Bible contains supernatural prophecy. This is because Daniel predicted the Messiah would come, be killed, and then the city and sanctuary would be destroyed. All scholars agree those prophecies were written before Christ was born. Christ amplified Daniel's prophecy and added detail. Therefore, their fulfillment in 70 AD the greatest proof of the Bible. This has been known for many centuries. This is not a new idea. Here is a typical explanation written over two hundred years ago (source):THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEMFolks who oppose these facts are opposing the only hard evidence for the supernatural origin of Christianity. I can't think of anything more ironic.
An Absolute and Irresistible
PROOF OF THE DIVINE ORIGIN OF CHRISTIANITY
Including a narrative of the calamities which befel the Jews
so far as they tend to verify our Lord's predictions relative to that event.
By George Peter Holford
(Written in 1805)
"I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation, if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible." --Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason
History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived; the solemn warnings and admonitions which they hold out to all nations, but especially such as are favoured with the light and blessings of REVELATION; together with the impressive and terrific grandeur of the events themselves--are circumstances which must always insure to the subject of the following pages more than ordinary degrees of interest and importance. Many eminent and learned men have employed their pens in the illustration of it; but the fruits of their labours are, for the most part, contained in large and expensive works, out of the reach of numbers, to whom the discussion might prove equally interesting and improving. For the use and gratification of such, the present Treatise, in a more accessible and familiar form, is diffidently offered to the public. In order that it might be better adapted for the general reader, critical inquiries and tedious details are equally avoided; but it has been the care of the writer not to omit any important fact or argument that, in his opinion, tended to elucidate the subject. Countenanced by the example of many respectable names, he has ventured to introduce the extraordinary prodigies, which, according to Josephus, preceded the destruction of the Holy City. He has also added a few sentences in their defense, but he does not intend thereby to express his unqualified admission of their genuineness.
You did mentioned that Full Preterism in not perfect, perhaps you may want to tell the readers here the reasons why you think so that made you give up Full Preterism. You did tell us why you quit Christianity but you have yet to tell us why you quit Full Preterism. I am sure your Full Preterist friends in this forum will try their best to reason with you and talk you in.