How many Gods are there?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Have you ever wonder why God didn't destroy Satan and his angels when He have all the time to do so? Have you ever wonder why God allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve and Jesus? Obviously, He was using Satan as a tool to tempt people so as to test and separate the good from the bad. God knows good and evil just like us and wouldn't we sometimes also use evil against evil? Didn't God says that He is a refiner of souls? It's like someone putting a thousand dollars in a drawer to see who is tempted by greed and who is honest and who is dishonest.

That doesn't make any sense to me. Adam and Eve were created innocent and ignorant of good and evil. Therefore, it would have been impossible for them to know that it was wrong to disobey God before they ate of the tree.

The story of the fall is very strange. It would be like me setting a bowl of poisoned candy before two children who don't know the meaning of death and telling them they would die if they ate of it, and then leaving them alone and sending in a very convincing deceiver to convince them to eat of it. Obviously, it was God's intent that they eat of it. If it was a "test" it was rigged to ensure they failed. Thankfully, the whole story is a myth.

[duxrow]

Morning RAM. I agree it was a test--but not for THEM -- FOR US! To see if we can 'rightly divide' the Word, as God divided the Bloody Sea, the Jordan, and the River of Life, by giving us precepts to learn by.

I appreciate this forum and the opportunity to share scripture truth that isn't regularly taught in churches.

Like the cantankerous Pharaoh in Egypt -- if he'd just said "Get lost, you Hebrews", we'd never have had the marvelous precept of the Passover Lamb.

Hope you're well again after that flu-bug.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Morning RAM. I agree it was a test--but not for THEM -- FOR US! To see if we can 'rightly divide' the Word, as God divided the Bloody Sea, the Jordan, and the River of Life, by giving us precepts to learn by.

I appreciate this forum and the opportunity to share scripture truth that isn't regularly taught in churches.

Like the cantankerous Pharaoh in Egypt -- if he'd just said "Get lost, you Hebrews", we'd never have had the marvelous precept of the Passover Lamb.

Hope you're well again after that flu-bug.

Good morning Dux!

I'm glad you appreciate this forum. I appreciate your contributions.

The flu-bug is long gone. Thanks for asking.

If the Bible is a test to see if we can "rightly divide" the Word, then how do we know when we got it right? It seems there is no objectively verifiable answer. Folks just believe what they want. And even if they want to know the "truth" there is no way for them to know if they found it or if they are deluded like everyone who disagrees with them!

[David M]

Does it matter? Are you suggesting that Satan was not created by God?

Of course it matters, otherwise I would not be asking to be shown where the Bible states Satan was created. If the Bible does not say so then it is an assumption to say that Satan was created. If Satan was not created; it leaves open the question; "what is Satan?"



David

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Of course it matters, otherwise I would not be asking to be shown where the Bible states Satan was created. If the Bible does not say so then it is an assumption to say that Satan was created. If Satan was not created; it leaves open the question; "what is Satan?"



David

Aha! That's a very tricky approach. I've never seen it before. It appears you are trying to argue against the existence of a literal satan by asserting that he was never created, and so does not exist. Is that correct?

If so, you should be a lawyer!

Now if that is your intent, it seems you are also arguing against all the verses that speak of Satan doing things as if he were a literal created being. You know, like in Job where Satan talks to God, and when Jesus said he saw Satan fall like lighting?

[David M]

Have you ever wonder why God didn't destroy Satan and his angels when He have all the time to do so?

I have not wondered this, I do not accept God's Angel(s) had the nature of man to rebel and sin. We are told that God's Angels do the will of God. Jesus confirmed the will of God was done in Heaven. God's Holy Angels are ministering spirits and do God's will. I maintain this premise and therefore have to reason something else which is in harmony with God's Angels conforming to do His will and is not in their nature to rebel.

Have you ever wonder why God allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve and Jesus?

I can understand the mental temptations that Jesus went through and see Satan as a personification of the adverse thoughts that were going on in his mind. The temptation came about due to God's power that had been made available to Jesus; without that power, he had no temptation. As he was fasting at the time of being in the wilderness, it is understandable that he had thoughts of ways of using God's power to produce food. All the temptations of Jesus can be be explained by self-generated thoughts that Jesus had.

Obviously, He was using Satan as a tool to tempt people so as to test and separate the good from the bad. God knows good and evil just like us and wouldn't we sometimes also use evil against evil? Didn't God says that He is a refiner of souls?

Sorry, but this is obvious to you and not obvious to me or to anyone who understands that Satan's origin is in the the thoughts of the mind. A person appears as a Satan due to the manifestation of their thoughts. "As a man thinketh, so is he". I know that God knows good and evil and He knows the thoughts within us. Satan can also represent nations which have collected thought as represented by their leaders.

James chapter 1 give us the best definition of what temptation is and how it comes about
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

The lust spoken of in James is expounded by John
1 John 1:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

In the above passages, there is no alluding to a fallen Angel of God for generating the things which a person lusts afer. The thoughts generated by the carnal mind (of those in the world) are not of God's making and therefore, no Angels were necessary to cause a person to have thoughts of lust/desire.

Until God told Adam and Eve; "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it" this was the first time they had been given a negative command . The questions they would have naturally asked themselves, I suggest are these; "why does God not want us to eat of this fruit? "What does God mean by good and evil"? Eve reasoned that if she ate of the fruit she would be filled with what the fruit was able to give her; knowledge of good and evil . She saw that the fruit looked good to eat and she desired to eat the fruit that looked so good. She also thought that the fruit would not do her no harm if she ate it nd also that she might recieve from the fruit the knowledge of good and evil (whatever was meant by that).

Eve did not necessarily understand the concept of death just as she did not comprehend what it meant to have knowlege of good and evil. We accept that God had programmed into Adam and Eve language, we do not know how much knowledge God had given them. If they began with no knowledge, knowledge would come from experience. As a consequence of Eve's action she gained knowledge. She gained knowledge of disobedience (which was contrary to obedience). Eve would have exercised obedience by doing the things God permitted her to do and therefore that was experience of doing good. Eve acquired knowledge of doing good. When it came to keeping a negative command, Eve had no experience of disobedience. The moment Eve disobeyed, she became knowledgable of her action and consequence. She then had the knowledge of evil by her experience of disobedience. Later, Eve gained the knowledge of death when God made the coverings of animal skins to clothe them; hence, the principle was laid down that there is no covering (for sin) without the shedding of blood..

The story of the temptation of Eve is no more than a simplified way of explaining the thoughts that went on in Eve's mind. By her own thoughts, she deceived herself. We do not know how the mind works; the processes that go on inside the mind to producing thoughts. The Bible cannot possibly explain what present-day science has difficulty understanding. The Bible is very economical with words and has given us a figurative story which is easy to understand; provided we recognize the figurative language used and what the serpent represents.

We are all subject to the same thought processes, because we are born with the same mind and to reason in the same way that Eve reasoned. That is why we are born with the same mind which Jesus referred to when he said; (John 8:44 ) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. The devil was in our parents' mind which caused our parents to sin and we are born of them with the same mind.

It becomes very clear that Jesus was born with the same mind by which he was able to have thoughts about committting disobedience to God. Thankfully, Jesus did not give in to the lust of wanting God's power for his own use and gain. Instead, he resolved to do God's will. It was this carnal side of his mind which Jesus had to overcome. Jesus overcame it. Jesus overcame all temptations and yielded to God's will, even when it meant going through with his death on the cross. Jesus's battle was completed on his death. At death, Jesus defeated the devil (Satan) that was in his mind (in the flesh). Thus the prophecy of Gen 3:15 was fufilled. Jesus had slain the figurative serpent; the devil or Satan that was in his mind. Self-generated thoughts of evil (the devil) had no power over Jesus. Jesus had resisted the devil on several occassions and the devil (evil thoughts) left him i.e. did not come back into his mind. Jesus defeated the devil that is in the flesh (mind) and in accordance with the prophecy of Gen 3:15 Jesus died and was in the grave; the rightful place for those who are fallen viticim of the serpent (the devil - the carnal mind). Hence, Gen 3:15 was fulfilled when the serpent bruised the heel of Jesus. Note the figurative language used. The death of Jesus was like a wound from which he recovered; it was not a lasting fatality. God had to raise Jesus from the dead, because Jesus had not sinned and so Jeus did not deserve death. By raising Jesus from the grave, God was true to His word and has given us the assurance of eternal life.

I accept that the world (that which is enmity with God) puts before me temptations, and I admit that I have lusted after certain things. I have no-one to blame for my lust and the thoughts that lead me to go after the things I desired. It is lusting after things which are contrary to God's will that lead to disobedience and condemnation. I have no-one to blame but myself for the evil thoughts that drive me to sin. I do not accuse any outside agent. The evil thoughts of the carnal mind that are contrary to the ways of God and the generation of these thoughts is what I would call Satan. Satan is a term that can apply to anyone or anything that represents an adversary. Satan is a term applied to evil/bad spirits and humans, such as Peter was to Jesus on one occassion. The multiple applications of the word Satan shows that the term is not solely applying to one entity, which unfortunately, people have wrongly followed a wrong line of reasoning. By taking a few verses from the Bible tand misapplying the figurative language, an Holy Angel of God is accused of being Satan, which is not true.

I have explained my reasons for believing Satan is not a fallen Angel of God and explained how the terms Satan and the Devil can be considered to be a resident part of the nature described as the carnal mind. Take it or leave it, and give your counter arguments. I prefer not to have to answer questions unless I have not been clear in my explanation.



David

[David M]

Shalom David,

Here is the clearest reference (in Ivrit at least)

Job 26:13 ברוחו שׁמים שׁפרה חללה ידו נחשׁ בריח׃

Thank you Ronen. As I told you, I am not a language scholar, so I cannot translate what you have written. Nevertheless, I have come across a couple of interpretations of the verse in Job which clearly show that this is not evidence for the creation of Satan. Therefore, we cannot use this verse alone.

Here is one piece of evidence gathered from the following website; http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0030.htm

The creation of the heavens above us, is said to be the work of God's Spirit. This you will see at once by referring to the sacred Scriptures, Job 26, 13th verse, "By his Spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent." All the stars of heaven are said to have been placed aloft by the Spirit, and one particular constellation called the "crooked serpent," is specially pointed out as his handiwork. He looseth the bands of Orion; he bindeth the sweet influences of the Pleiades, and binds Arcturus with his suns. He made all those stars that shine in heaven. The heavens were garnished by his hands, and he formed the crooked.


David

[gregoryfl]

Shalom David,

What you read from Spurgeon is what I and others have seen as well. It is true that in that text he is referring to the constellations. However, those constellations are there for a reason (and I do not mean astrology). They serve as another heavenly witness to all that God has done and will do. His plan I believe is written in the sky for all to see. His creating the serpent I see as part of it all, written where man cannot touch it.

Now, some may only stop at the physical creation and still not believe that God could possibly have created the Adversary. To them it would amount to making the Creator himself out to be evil (which hebraically means 'shattered'). God does evil at times, but is himself not evil. It is that evil that Job had in mind when he asked the very pointed question 'shall we accept good from God, and not evil'?

It is fine if this is disagreeable. I am only sharing what I have come to see. I too have been in a process of questioning everything I have been taught to believe and it has led me to where I have settled in my beliefs as of now.
Ronen

[David M]

Good morning Richard

Aha! That's a very tricky approach. I've never seen it before. It appears you are trying to argue against the existence of a literal satan by asserting that he was never created, and so does not exist. Is that correct??

That is correct. I am simply stating the obvious (as you would tell me). I cannot believe no-one has ever taken this approach with you.

If so, you should be a lawyer!?

Perhaps I missed my vocation. I am using a simple argument. On several occassions I have had to stand my ground when dealing with solicitors, terms and conditons, the law and common sense and won my point. I would not use these few victories to claim to be special. Many ordinary individuals chave won their case where their evidence has been strong and they make valid arguments.

Now if that is your intent, it seems you are also arguing against all the verses that speak of Satan doing things as if he were a literal created being. You know, like in Job where Satan talks to God, and when Jesus said he saw Satan fall like lighting?

Exactly that. Once you drop the notion that Satan is a fallen Angel of God and attribute Satan to something else (I have given my explaination of what I consider Satan and The Devil to be in a post before this) you are forced to see all the references to Satan and the Devil in an entirely different way and a way that makes sense. I am looking for coherence of the Bible. Satan as a fallen Angel of God is not a coherent interpretation as it does not fit in with the what we are told in the verses I have already given.

How else can you reconcile these two facts; "God's Holy Angels do His will" and Satan (a supposed Holy Angel who rebelled) does not do His will? Satan could never have been an Holy Angel of God to begin with. Please reconcile these two facts for me.

David


David

[David M]

Good morning Richard

Aha! That's a very tricky approach. I've never seen it before. It appears you are trying to argue against the existence of a literal satan by asserting that he was never created, and so does not exist. Is that correct??

That is correct. I am simply stating the obvious (as you would tell me). I cannot believe no-one has ever taken this approach with you.

If so, you should be a lawyer!?

Perhaps I missed my vocation. I am using a simple argument. On several occassions I have had to stand my ground when dealing with solicitors, terms and conditons, the law and common sense and won my point. I would not use these few victories to claim to be special. Many ordinary individuals have won their case where their evidence has been strong and they make valid arguments.

Now if that is your intent, it seems you are also arguing against all the verses that speak of Satan doing things as if he were a literal created being. You know, like in Job where Satan talks to God, and when Jesus said he saw Satan fall like lighting?

Exactly that. Once you drop the notion that Satan is a fallen Angel of God and attribute Satan to something else (I have given my explaination of what I consider Satan and The Devil to be in a post before this) you are forced to see all the references to Satan and the Devil in an entirely different way and a way that makes sense. I am looking for coherence of the Bible. Satan as a fallen Angel of God is not a coherent interpretation and does not fit with the what we are told in the verses I have already given to support this argument.

How else can you reconcile these two facts; "God's Holy Angels do His will" and Satan (a supposed Holy Angel who rebelled) does not do His will? Satan could never have been an Holy Angel of God to begin with. Please reconcile these two facts for me.

David