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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregoryfl View Post
    Shalom David,

    What you read from Spurgeon is what I and others have seen as well. It is true that in that text he is referring to the constellations. However, those constellations are there for a reason (and I do not mean astrology). They serve as another heavenly witness to all that God has done and will do. His plan I believe is written in the sky for all to see. His creating the serpent I see as part of it all, written where man cannot touch it.

    Now, some may only stop at the physical creation and still not believe that God could possibly have created the Adversary. To them it would amount to making the Creator himself out to be evil (which hebraically means 'shattered'). God does evil at times, but is himself not evil. It is that evil that Job had in mind when he asked the very pointed question 'shall we accept good from God, and not evil'?

    It is fine if this is disagreeable. I am only sharing what I have come to see. I too have been in a process of questioning everything I have been taught to believe and it has led me to where I have settled in my beliefs as of now.
    Ronen
    Hello Ronen
    That's fine. If there is not a thread already (I have not looked) maybe this would be a good thread to start and explain what the constellations would have meant in the time we are speaking of.

    I am not convinced a star constellation named 'The Crooked Serpent" represents a fallen Angel. Let the constellation represent Satan for what Satan is (any adversary to God's will).

    Star constellations would mean more to the people living in the land where those constellations can be seen. It has amazed me how a few stars have been portrayed as representing detailed figures as drawn in the figures we are familiar with. I cannot say I have seen these constellations in the night sky. I do not know if I can see the Crooked Serperent constellation from such a northerly position where I am.

    We have to be careful we do not mix up the prophecies relating to the political heavens and the stars representative of the nations and powers and leaders with that of the physical heavens. When Jesus says; And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; we might see a dual fufilment of this prophecy in the physical heavens as well as the political heavens. Science has brought to us many interesting facts in the last year or so about the recent alignment of the planets and observations of the moon and of the sun and of the solar system and the universe. I would not be surprised that there is dual fufilment of this prophecy to force home the importance of the time in which these events happen.

    Let's keep watching.

    David
    Last edited by David M; 04-14-2012 at 01:14 AM.

  2. #22
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    I too, do not believe the 'crooked serpent' to be referring to a fallen Angel.

    Ronen

  3. #23
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    zodiac

    For what it's worth..
    By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. Job26:13 The two stars at the outside of the big Dipper cup point to POLARIS the North Star; a valuable aid for sailors and navigators even though it isn't as bright as other stars.
    The reference in Job is thought by many (myself included) to apply to the Draco the dragon constellation. About 4000 years ago, the star Thuban (snake) was the North Star. Since then, precession of the Earth's axis has changed where the North Pole points, so the North Star is now Polaris. Thousands of years from now, they say, the North Star will be Vega.
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I have not wondered this, I do not accept God's Angel(s) had the nature of man to rebel and sin. We are told that God's Angels do the will of God. Jesus confirmed the will of God was done in Heaven. God's Holy Angels are ministering spirits and do God's will. I maintain this premise and therefore have to reason something else which is in harmony with God's Angels conforming to do His will and is not in their nature to rebel.


    I can understand the mental temptations that Jesus went through and see Satan as a personification of the adverse thoughts that were going on in his mind. The temptation came about due to God's power that had been made available to Jesus; without that power, he had no temptation. As he was fasting at the time of being in the wilderness, it is understandable that he had thoughts of ways of using God's power to produce food. All the temptations of Jesus can be be explained by self-generated thoughts that Jesus had.


    Sorry, but this is obvious to you and not obvious to me or to anyone who understands that Satan's origin is in the the thoughts of the mind. A person appears as a Satan due to the manifestation of their thoughts. "As a man thinketh, so is he". I know that God knows good and evil and He knows the thoughts within us. Satan can also represent nations which have collected thought as represented by their leaders.

    James chapter 1 give us the best definition of what temptation is and how it comes about
    13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
    14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
    16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.


    The lust spoken of in James is expounded by John
    1 John 1:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

    In the above passages, there is no alluding to a fallen Angel of God for generating the things which a person lusts afer. The thoughts generated by the carnal mind (of those in the world) are not of God's making and therefore, no Angels were necessary to cause a person to have thoughts of lust/desire.

    Until God told Adam and Eve; "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it" this was the first time they had been given a negative command . The questions they would have naturally asked themselves, I suggest are these; "why does God not want us to eat of this fruit? "What does God mean by good and evil"? Eve reasoned that if she ate of the fruit she would be filled with what the fruit was able to give her; knowledge of good and evil . She saw that the fruit looked good to eat and she desired to eat the fruit that looked so good. She also thought that the fruit would not do her no harm if she ate it nd also that she might recieve from the fruit the knowledge of good and evil (whatever was meant by that).

    Eve did not necessarily understand the concept of death just as she did not comprehend what it meant to have knowlege of good and evil. We accept that God had programmed into Adam and Eve language, we do not know how much knowledge God had given them. If they began with no knowledge, knowledge would come from experience. As a consequence of Eve's action she gained knowledge. She gained knowledge of disobedience (which was contrary to obedience). Eve would have exercised obedience by doing the things God permitted her to do and therefore that was experience of doing good. Eve acquired knowledge of doing good. When it came to keeping a negative command, Eve had no experience of disobedience. The moment Eve disobeyed, she became knowledgable of her action and consequence. She then had the knowledge of evil by her experience of disobedience. Later, Eve gained the knowledge of death when God made the coverings of animal skins to clothe them; hence, the principle was laid down that there is no covering (for sin) without the shedding of blood..

    The story of the temptation of Eve is no more than a simplified way of explaining the thoughts that went on in Eve's mind. By her own thoughts, she deceived herself. We do not know how the mind works; the processes that go on inside the mind to producing thoughts. The Bible cannot possibly explain what present-day science has difficulty understanding. The Bible is very economical with words and has given us a figurative story which is easy to understand; provided we recognize the figurative language used and what the serpent represents.

    We are all subject to the same thought processes, because we are born with the same mind and to reason in the same way that Eve reasoned. That is why we are born with the same mind which Jesus referred to when he said; (John 8:44 ) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. The devil was in our parents' mind which caused our parents to sin and we are born of them with the same mind.

    It becomes very clear that Jesus was born with the same mind by which he was able to have thoughts about committting disobedience to God. Thankfully, Jesus did not give in to the lust of wanting God's power for his own use and gain. Instead, he resolved to do God's will. It was this carnal side of his mind which Jesus had to overcome. Jesus overcame it. Jesus overcame all temptations and yielded to God's will, even when it meant going through with his death on the cross. Jesus's battle was completed on his death. At death, Jesus defeated the devil (Satan) that was in his mind (in the flesh). Thus the prophecy of Gen 3:15 was fufilled. Jesus had slain the figurative serpent; the devil or Satan that was in his mind. Self-generated thoughts of evil (the devil) had no power over Jesus. Jesus had resisted the devil on several occassions and the devil (evil thoughts) left him i.e. did not come back into his mind. Jesus defeated the devil that is in the flesh (mind) and in accordance with the prophecy of Gen 3:15 Jesus died and was in the grave; the rightful place for those who are fallen viticim of the serpent (the devil - the carnal mind). Hence, Gen 3:15 was fulfilled when the serpent bruised the heel of Jesus. Note the figurative language used. The death of Jesus was like a wound from which he recovered; it was not a lasting fatality. God had to raise Jesus from the dead, because Jesus had not sinned and so Jeus did not deserve death. By raising Jesus from the grave, God was true to His word and has given us the assurance of eternal life.

    I accept that the world (that which is enmity with God) puts before me temptations, and I admit that I have lusted after certain things. I have no-one to blame for my lust and the thoughts that lead me to go after the things I desired. It is lusting after things which are contrary to God's will that lead to disobedience and condemnation. I have no-one to blame but myself for the evil thoughts that drive me to sin. I do not accuse any outside agent. The evil thoughts of the carnal mind that are contrary to the ways of God and the generation of these thoughts is what I would call Satan. Satan is a term that can apply to anyone or anything that represents an adversary. Satan is a term applied to evil/bad spirits and humans, such as Peter was to Jesus on one occassion. The multiple applications of the word Satan shows that the term is not solely applying to one entity, which unfortunately, people have wrongly followed a wrong line of reasoning. By taking a few verses from the Bible tand misapplying the figurative language, an Holy Angel of God is accused of being Satan, which is not true.

    I have explained my reasons for believing Satan is not a fallen Angel of God and explained how the terms Satan and the Devil can be considered to be a resident part of the nature described as the carnal mind. Take it or leave it, and give your counter arguments. I prefer not to have to answer questions unless I have not been clear in my explanation.

    David
    Hi David,

    I do understand that some Christians don't believe Satan is real. And of course, I respect their belief. As for me, I believe Satan is real and some of his genes is probably in everyone of us if we believe that Eve was beguiled by the serpent (could something imaginary beguiled Eve?). As such, it has some physical and psychological implications in everyone of us which is also why all of us have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Some passages seem suggestive that Satan is real:

    Matt. 13:24-31.
    Another Parable put he forth to them, saying. The Kingdom of Heaven is like a man which sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the weeds also. So the servants of the householder came and said to him. Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field! From whence then has it weeds? He said to them. An enemy has done this. The servants said to him. Will you then that we go and gather them up? But he said. Nay; lest, while you gather up the weeds, you root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together, until the harvest; and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather you together, first the weeds, and bind them in: bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Revelation 20:When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Here, we see again as to why God didn't destroy Satan straightaway but kept him for a later purpose.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Revelation 12:7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Matthew 12:26
    If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?

    Matthew 16:23
    Jesus turned and said to Peter, 'Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.'

    Mark 1:13
    and he was in the wilderness forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him.

    Mark 4:15
    Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.

    Luke 10:18
    He replied, 'I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

    Luke 13:16
    Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?'

    Luke 22:3
    Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve.

    Luke 22:31
    'Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat.



    God Blessings to all.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Now if that is your intent, it seems you are also arguing against all the verses that speak of Satan doing things as if he were a literal created being. You know, like in Job where Satan talks to God, and when Jesus said he saw Satan fall like lighting?
    Exactly that. Once you drop the notion that Satan is a fallen Angel of God and attribute Satan to something else (I have given my explaination of what I consider Satan and The Devil to be in a post before this) you are forced to see all the references to Satan and the Devil in an entirely different way and a way that makes sense. I am looking for coherence of the Bible. Satan as a fallen Angel of God is not a coherent interpretation as it does not fit in with the what we are told in the verses I have already given.

    How else can you reconcile these two facts; "God's Holy Angels do His will" and Satan (a supposed Holy Angel who rebelled) does not do His will? Satan could never have been an Holy Angel of God to begin with. Please reconcile these two facts for me.

    David
    If angels do not sin, how are we supposed to you understand these verses?

    2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

    Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    If angels do not sin, how are we supposed to you understand these verses?

    2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

    Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
    Hello Richard
    I can give you an explanation for the two verses you have quoted. I remember answering the reference in Jude 1:6 elsewhere. Before I give an interpretation again, I would like an answer to my question which you have not answered and diverted me to anwering your question.

    Here is my question again.

    Originally Posted by David M

    How else can you reconcile these two facts; "God's Holy Angels do His will" and Satan (a supposed Holy Angel who rebelled) does not do His will? Satan could never have been an Holy Angel of God to begin with. Please reconcile these two facts for me.
    I look forward to your answer.

    David

  7. #27
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    Greetings everyone!

    This is a fair topic, but unfortunately it is a topic that cannot be proven factually, even from the Bible. Since the Bible does not tell us much specifically about Satan, it's nearly impossible to determine where Satan came from. There is an external source that attempts to shed light on the identity of Satan and how he came about. The writings of Enoch describes Satan, along with his team of angels, choosing to rebel against God. Without getting into too much detail, the writings of Enoch tells us a story of Satan, given a different name but I don't recall right of hand, choosing to commit a crime against God. Satan and his followers decided to have relations (sexual) with ordinary women because of their beauty. They not only had sexual relations with these women, but also taught them how to make certain herbal abstracts of some kind which causes humans to grow in much larger stature than normal. What makes this story so difficult to believe is that the "giants", as recorded in the Old Testament, and according to the writings of Enoch, spanned some 250 feet in height, give or take. Now something like this is impossible to believe, especially considering there are not fossilized relics remaining to prove this.

    The writings of Enoch refers to these giants as the Nephilim. It is then that God banished the fallen angels to the earth, some being hidden in dark caves, as they await the final judgment thousands of years later. This is also the same time that God sent the great flood of Noah to destroy the works that Satan and his followers did.

    To this day, I've often wondered greatly as to why the Old Testament doesn't provide much information about the giants. Was this done intentionally? Who knows, but I'm certain that God had his reasons.

    I would accept the writings of Enoch to be genuine, if it were not for the rather bazaar names attributed to these Angels, to also include the name of Satan, which is NOT Lucifer I might add, nor their rather extraordinary height. I mean, 250 feet tall is far to fascinating to accept as true.

    In the end, it doesn't really matter who or what Satan is. Suffice it say that he was an enemy of Christ, and he lost his war against Christ in the first century; that is when I believe Satan was either destroyed forever, or at least banished during the Millennial reign of Christ, which I believe began with the first set of the Churches victory in 70AD.

    Joseph
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Hi David,

    I do understand that some Christians don't believe Satan is real. And of course, I respect their belief. As for me, I believe Satan is real and some of his genes is probably in everyone of us if we believe that Eve was beguiled by the serpent (could something imaginary beguiled Eve?). As such, it has some physical and psychological implications in everyone of us which is also why all of us have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Some passages seem suggestive that Satan is real:
    Hello Cheow

    I know that many passages make Satan appear to be a real person. This is called personification. We use physical models to visualize atoms and molecules. Personification helps visualize complex influences. The following verse you listed is a good example of the use of metaphor and personification.
    Mark 4:15
    Some people are like seed along the path (metaphor), where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away(personification) the word that was sown in them. If a person does not retain the word, it is like another person taking the word away from them.
    I suggest you try deciding which of verses in your list uses personification.

    The moment you talk about genes you are introducing something that very few people understand. No-one in Bible times would have known about genes. The concept of a Satan gene is unscriptural and I do not think we should look for this type of explanation.

    I know some believe that the serpent was real and that the serpent is said to have spoken. Knowing how Balaams's donkey(ass) spoke, I can see why this is a possibility. I can also understand when God uses His Holy Angel to do something that we might conclude was an act of Satan. However, when the Bible says; neither tempteth he (God) any man:
    , I do not consider the serpent was God's agent tempting Eve, otherwise, this would be the same as God tempting Eve and God tempts no-one. Why would God allow Satan to be His agent to tempt Eve? Surely, the moment God gave Adam and Eve the instruction; "thou shalt not eat", God knew what the outcome would be. If Eve was not tempted by an agent of God, we have to find an explanation for how Eve was tempted and deceived. I have already given my explanation in an earlier post. My conclusion is that Eve's thoughts were self-generated.

    Why attribute thoughts of temptation to an external spiritual being (Satan) when the thoughts can easily be generated in our mind from things we see and hear? For example, if you see a car you desire to drive, then it is easy to see how you can be tempted to buy that car. Are you going to attribute all your shopping decisions to Satan's influence? Is it the object of your desire that is the Satan, or is it the thought of having the object and the thoughts of what it will do for your ego that is the Satan?

    To covet is a sin. This is the desire to have someone else's possession or to have the same as them. The act of coveting is breaking the commandment; "thou shalt not covet". What about the millions of people who are coveting at this very instant in time; is a roaming spirit tempting all these people all at the same moment?

    Suppose you and I were standing together looking at the same car in a showroom. You are tempted to buy it, and I am not; why is that? Why does not Satan tempt us both? It would make economical use of his time and energy to tempt us both at the same time. You have a desire to have the car and I do not have the same desire. Because you have desire, you are tempted. It is your own desire that is your own temptation. You do not need a Satan spirit being to make you desire something.

    Jesus was hungry and it was a natural desire to eat, but because he was fasting, he could not let himself use the Power of the Holy Spirit to turn the stones that looked like loaves of bread into actual bread and thus break his fast and use the Holy Spirit for a purpose that was not in God's will. How many ways do you think Jesus could think of to use the power of God for his own use? The number of uses you can think of must have been the many temptations that went through the mind of Jesus.

    Suppose I came to you and made you an offer. If you took up my offer, it would cause you to sin. Who is tempting you to sin? Is it Satan or me? Am I not acting as Satan in this case? Jesus at one moment regarded Peter as a Satan because of the suggestion Peter made. Was Satan (an external spirit ) making Peter say those words, or were those words of Peter his own? Because of the many complex factors contributing to our thoughts and the decisions we make, I can see why it is easier to use the personification of Satan to give a simple explanation.

    Just as we travel about up and down the country and communicate with people as we go, it is easy to see how our influence on the people we meet is like the personified Satan roaming around tempting people. Instead of giving a lengthy explanation of what is going on in our mind and the influences on us, it is easier to say, "Satan tempted me". I would use this expression as part of my vocabulary so long as the person I am communicating with understands that I am using personification and that Satan is not some created spirit being or a fallen Angel of God.

    I hope my examples help you reason out that Satan is not a a God-created spirit being specifically tasked with tempting people or that Satan is a rebellious Angel of God, doing his own thing.

    All the best.
    David
    Last edited by David M; 04-14-2012 at 05:34 PM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Cheow

    I know that many passages make Satan appear to be a real person. This is called personification. We use physical models to visualize atoms and molecules. Personification helps visualize complex influences. The following verse you listed is a good example of the use of metaphor and personification.
    Mark 4:15
    Some people are like seed along the path (metaphor), where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away(personification) the word that was sown in them. If a person does not retain the word, it is like another person taking the word away from them.
    I suggest you try deciding which of verses in your list uses personification.

    The moment you talk about genes you are introducing something that very few people understand. No-one in Bible times would have known about genes. The concept of a Satan gene is unscriptural and I do not think we should look for this type of explanation.

    I know some believe that the serpent was real and that the serpent is said to have spoken. Knowing how Balaams's donkey(ass) spoke, I can see why this is a possibility. I can also understand when God uses His Holy Angel to do something that we might conclude was an act of Satan. However, when the Bible says; neither tempteth he (God) any man:
    , I do not consider the serpent was God's agent tempting Eve, otherwise, this would be the same as God tempting Eve and God tempts no-one. Why would God allow Satan to be His agent to tempt Eve? Surely, the moment God gave Adam and Eve the instruction; "thou shalt not eat", God knew what the outcome would be. If Eve was not tempted by an agent of God, we have to find an explanation for how Eve was tempted and deceived. I have already given my explanation in an earlier post. My conclusion is that Eve's thoughts were self-generated.

    Why attribute thoughts of temptation to an external spiritual being (Satan) when the thoughts can easily be generated in our mind from things we see and hear? For example, if you see a car you desire to drive, then it is easy to see how you can be tempted to buy that car. Are you going to attribute all your shopping decisions to Satan's influence? Is it the object of your desire that is the Satan, or is it the thought of having the object and the thoughts of what it will do for your ego that is the Satan?

    To covet is a sin. This is the desire to have someone else's possession or to have the same as them. The act of coveting is breaking the commandment; "thou shalt not covet". What about the millions of people who are coveting at this very instant in time; is a roaming spirit tempting all these people all at the same moment?

    Suppose you and I were standing together looking at the same car in a showroom. You are tempted to buy it, and I am not; why is that? Why does not Satan tempt us both? It would make economical use of his time and energy to tempt us both at the same time. You have a desire to have the car and I do not have the same desire. Because you have desire, you are tempted. It is your own desire that is your own temptation. You do not need a Satan spirit being to make you desire something.

    Jesus was hungry and it was a natural desire to eat, but because he was fasting, he could not let himself use the Power of the Holy Spirit to turn the stones that looked like loaves of bread into actual bread and thus break his fast and use the Holy Spirit for a purpose that was not in God's will. How many ways do you think Jesus could think of to use the power of God for his own use? The number of uses you can think of must have been the many temptations that went through the mind of Jesus.

    Suppose I came to you and made you an offer. If you took up my offer, it would cause you to sin. Who is tempting you to sin? Is it Satan or me? Am I not acting as Satan in this case? Jesus at one moment regarded Peter as a Satan because of the suggestion Peter made. Was Satan (an external spirit ) making Peter say those words, or were those words of Peter his own? Because of the many complex factors contributing to our thoughts and the decisions we make, I can see why it is easier to use the personification of Satan to give a simple explanation.

    Just as we travel about up and down the country and communicate with people as we go, it is easy to see how our influence on the people we meet is like the personified Satan roaming around tempting people. Instead of giving a lengthy explanation of what is going on in our mind and the influences on us, it is easier to say, "Satan tempted me". I would use this expression as part of my vocabulary so long as the person I am communicating with understands that I am using personification and that Satan is not some created spirit being or a fallen Angel of God.

    I hope my examples help you reason out that Satan is not a a God-created spirit being specifically tasked with tempting people or that Satan is a rebellious Angel of God, doing his own thing.

    All the best.
    David
    I am presenting something which people may not have thought about.... How did sin came into the world? Rose will love this -- Christians blamed it on Adam but yet Eve was the one who ate the apple first and gave it to Adam. All the blame seems to go to Adam and none to Eve (equality of woman over man ). It seems unfair isn't it? Satan entice Eve to eat the apple, Eve ate it and gave some of it to Adam, Adam ate it and Adam was blamed for causing death and sin to mankind and Satan and Eve seem to go blameless:

    Romans 5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

    Romans 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

    Romans 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

    Romans 5:21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    1 Corinthians 15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.


    Read carefully, All the passages above seem to suggest that by eating the apple Death results. It does not seems to say that all sin resulted from eating the apple. I am thinking, how then did the other aspects of sin besides death came into the world? In Genesis, it also says that the Satan beguiled Eve and Eve gave birth to Abel, a good man and Cain an evil man. Was Abel the union between Adam and Eve and Cain a result of the union between Satan and Eve?... and that 's how the gene of evil (from Satan) and good (from Adam) came into Eve's offsprings? Some people think so but Genesis 4 clearly states that Cain came from the union of Adam and Eve. Genesis 4:1 Adam[a] made love to his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain.[b] She said, 'With the help of the LORD I have brought forth[c] a man.' 2 Later she gave birth to his brother Abel. But why do all humans have both good and evil in them? Perhaps, Satan did not have sex with Eve but have already instilled some evil genes in the apple when Eve she ate the apple.....some food for thought. Think also why did God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden? If there is no tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden then Eve and Adam would not have sinned....sounds like it was done purposely to conduct a test.

    Your example of buying a nice car is a good example. But what if both men were to look at the nice car but due to their strong principle not to spent money unnecessarily, will not buy the car. The car salesmen then came to entice them with sweet talks about the car and even offer discounts. In the end, one of them succumbed to pressure and bought the car. Who is to blame? It is the one who succumbed as he is the own who made the final decision to buy the car. This is how I see in Genesis, Satan enticed Eve and Eve succumbed to the deception but fortunately Jesus passed the test and did not succumbed to the evil enticement of Satan. Then the question we should be asking, why did God allowed Satan to be in the Garden in the first place to entice Eve? If Satan was not in the garden, then Eve and Adam will not have disobeyed God and sinned. This is why I believe that Satan was purposely used to test Eve and Adam free-will to make decision if they will succumbed to the pressure and evil enticements. It tested their true faith and sincerity to obey God even when under pressure and enticements. One is held responsible for one's decision. The result shows that they yield under pressure and evil enticements and thus need to be "corrected". You want to be like God knowing good and evil ? Fine, but knowing good and evil and be like God comes with a price. It's like saying, if you want to be a General Manager, then you must worked very hard in knowledge, skill and standard and strive for it by overcoming the stress and competition.


    God Blessed.
    Last edited by CWH; 04-14-2012 at 08:34 PM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Richard
    Quote Originally Posted by Ram
    If angels do not sin, how are we supposed to you understand these verses?

    2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

    Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
    I can give you an explanation for the two verses you have quoted. I remember answering the reference in Jude 1:6 elsewhere. Before I give an interpretation again, I would like an answer to my question which you have not answered and diverted me to anwering your question.

    Here is my question again.
    Quote Originally Posted by David M
    How else can you reconcile these two facts; "God's Holy Angels do His will" and Satan (a supposed Holy Angel who rebelled) does not do His will? Satan could never have been an Holy Angel of God to begin with. Please reconcile these two facts for me.
    I look forward to your answer.

    David
    Hi David,

    I searched for the answer you think you gave, but I could not find it. I did find some discussion between us about this topic on the thread Titans and their origin. I had presented evidence in post #6 that Jude interpreted the fallen angels as having sex with women. You responding in post #21 by merely asserting that I was wrong without giving any refutation of the reasons I gave. You said that I had "faulty reasoning" without identifying the fault. Then when I asked in post #23 for you to identify my "faulty reasoning" you responded in post #27 merely asserting (again!) that I was was wrong without giving any refutation of the reasons I gave. Here is what you wrote:
    This is just a totally bad conclusion. I thought you were much better at analysis than I am giving you credit for. When it comes to proper analysis of the Bible, you are lacking at the moment. I am not saying I am better at analysis, but I do not make such blatantly false conclusions as you are making here. I am open to other opinions as to who are the angels referred to and I go with other opinions which I can understand and reason. I fail to understand your reasoning, which might not be your own. You said I gave "Augustine's explanation", of whom I know nothing about; this shows you are well read in lots of other writings. I gave the same reasoning as given by other free-thinkers, who are not locked into anyone else's thinking, but have reached the same conclusions as others. All our thinking can be influenced or not influenced by what we read or hear other people speak. I am not attaching labels to myself. Are you a free-thinker on this subject or have you locked on to someone else's teaching. What is your reason for choosing what you have and ruling out what others have said on this matter of so-called "fallen angels"?
    You did not even attempt to refute the reasons I gave. You merely said I was wrong. I asked twice for you to give reasons, but you did not give any.

    Now you want me to answer your question. OK. Here's a possible answer. If angels have free will, they remain holy only as long as they don't sin. When they sin, they become unholy fallen angels.

    Now I think it's very important that you answer my question. Your assertion that the angels cannot sin appears to directly contradict the fact that Peter says some angels did sin. How do you reconcile that verse with your assertion?

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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