Google Ads

Google Ads

Bible Wheel Book

Google Ads

+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 4 of 4
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Bronx, New York
    Posts
    4

    Natural Divisions within the Third Cycle?

    Is there a reason why the 3rd Circle is not divided into the 5-12-5 pattern like the other two circles before it?

    And As I was reading through the name of the books I noticed a different kind of division:

    A 9-4-9 Pattern.

    LETTERS WRITTEN TO THE NEW GENTILE BELIEVERS:
    Romans
    1st Corinthians
    2nd Corinthians
    Galatians
    Ephesians
    Philippians
    Colossians
    1st Thessalonians
    2nd Thessalonians

    LETTERS WRITTEN TO LEADERS
    1st Timothy
    2nd Timothy
    Titus
    Philemon

    LETTERS WRITTEN TO THE SEASONED JEW BELIEVERS:
    Hebrews
    James
    1st Peter
    2nd Peter
    1st John
    2nd John
    3rd John
    Jude
    Revelation

    I notice a logical progression of Spiritual Growth and Maturity in this particular layout.

    I also noticed that Revelations is understood more clearly by Christian Jews since it is so deeply embedded with Old Testament Symbolism.

    Perhaps they were organized like this on purpose?

    Notice that the first nine books seem to focus on Grace and Faith only.

    But as you get to the Last nine books there seems to be an emphasis on holy living and works.

    The division is Marked by Letters to Leaders.

    From Darkness to Light.

    From Milk to Meat.

    From Child to Adult.

    From Follower to Leader.

    It seems that as you mature in the faith you should exhibit a more Holier and transformed life.

    And Revelation can not be understood until you go through the entire transition of Ignorance to Enlightenment.

    Does this make sense? does it serve a purpose? or did I just ruin the whole bible wheel pattern?
    Last edited by Jose Sanchez; 04-11-2012 at 10:34 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
    Posts
    13,881
    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Sanchez View Post
    Is there a reason why the 3rd Circle is not divided into the 5-12-5 pattern like the other two circles before it?

    And As I was reading through the name of the books I noticed a different kind of division:

    A 9-4-9 Pattern.

    LETTERS WRITTEN TO THE NEW GENTILE BELIEVERS:
    Romans
    1st Corinthians
    2nd Corinthians
    Galatians
    Ephesians
    Philippians
    Colossians
    1st Thessalonians
    2nd Thessalonians

    LETTERS WRITTEN TO LEADERS
    1st Timothy
    2nd Timothy
    Titus
    Philemon

    LETTERS WRITTEN TO THE SEASONED JEW BELIEVERS:
    Hebrews
    James
    1st Peter
    2nd Peter
    1st John
    2nd John
    3rd John
    Jude
    Revelation

    I notice a logical progression of Spiritual Growth and Maturity in this particular layout.

    I also noticed that Revelations is understood more clearly by Christian Jews since it is so deeply embedded with Old Testament Symbolism.

    Perhaps they were organized like this on purpose?

    Notice that the first nine books seem to focus on Grace and Faith only.

    But as you get to the Last nine books there seems to be an emphasis on holy living and works.

    The division is Marked by Letters to Leaders.

    From Darkness to Light.

    From Milk to Meat.

    From Child to Adult.

    From Follower to Leader.

    It seems that as you mature in the faith you should exhibit a more Holier and transformed life.

    And Revelation can not be understood until you go through the entire transition of Ignorance to Enlightenment.

    Does this make sense? does it serve a purpose? or did I just ruin the whole bible wheel pattern?
    Hi Jose!

    Welcome to our forum!



    Thanks for the very interesting comments and questions. I have looked at a lot of the possible natural divisions of the third Cycle, and am familiar with the one you propose. Yes, it makes some sense, but there is another possibility that seems more natural to me, and which is strongly confirmed by correlation with the other Cycles on the Wheel. If we accept the tradition that Hebrews was written by Paul, then we find a consistent pattern across all three Cycles:

    Name:  correlated_fine_structure.jpg
Views: 74
Size:  52.2 KB


    I discuss this at length in Chapter 6 of the Bible Wheel book (available online here).

    And here is an image of how these divisions align on the Bible Wheel. Note that the "Post-Exilic" OT books (the history after Israel was "scattered" during the Babylonian Exile) align with the three Epistles to the Scattered (to who both James and Peter addressed their letters).



    Now any division of the 22 Epistles will be subject to dispute because there are unknowns. In the case of the division I have suggested, the only unknown is the authorship of Hebrews. But given that there is a strong tradition of Pauline authorship and the pattern strongly corresponds with the other divisions of the other Cycles, I am inclined to think it best.

    I do see some support for the pattern you suggest. The move from "grace" towards "works" makes some sense, and it has a nice symmetry. But there are some problems with the pattern you suggest. First, the group you call "Letters written to Leaders" is not a standard group. Normally, the first three letters of that group are taken as their own group called the Pastoral Epistles because they were written to pastors Timothy and Titus. Second, the group you call "Letters written to seasoned Jew believers" was invented by the Dispensationalists who invented the doctrine of "two distinct peoples of God" (Christians and Israelites), and who say that the letters to the Jews don't even apply to Christians. It is a very recent innovation without any valid support from the text as far as I can tell.

    Neither can I accept your assertion that "Revelations is understood more clearly by Christian Jews since it is so deeply embedded with Old Testament Symbolism." First, there is no book called "Revelations" (excuse me, but that's a pet peeve of mine). Second, there is absolutely no validity to the idea that the ability to understand the OT Symbolism is genetically or culturally based upon being Jewish. People who understand the OT do so because they have STUDIED it. And besides, many "Jewish Christians" have rejected traditional Christian doctrine such as the Trinity and the freedom from the Law because of their devotion to OT practices and a failure to understand how the church fulfilled prophecy.

    Also, it seems clear that the third Cycle was not meant to have strong divisions like the first two because this way we have a total of seven perfectly symmetrical divisions which form the pattern of the tri-radiant halo of Christ seen in ancient Christian iconography:


    The Canon Wheel ........... Icon of Christ

    I talk about this in my article The Tri-Radiant Halo as the Sign of Deity.

    Now if we added divisions to the third Cycle, we would destroy the sevenfold pattern which simply "falls out" from the traditional divisions. I have reviewed the levels of divisions in this article where I discuss the Complete Categorical View of the Bible. As you can see, the subdivisions on Cycle 3, no matter how you cut it, are very deep on Level 4 (furtherest to the right). The groups displayed on the Canon Wheel are from Levels 2 and 3. Note that all the divisions exist in the literature. I didn't have to "make up" any non-standard divisions.



    You asked "Does this make sense? does it serve a purpose? or did I just ruin the whole bible wheel pattern?" Yes, it makes some sense, but it doesn't fit very well with the rest of the pattern whereas the traditional divisions fit very well. And yes, it does server a purpose, but it looks like that purpose is to support Dispensational theology which I think is fundamentally flawed and unbiblical. Finally, no, you did not "ruin" the pattern. You merely suggested a pattern that doesn't really fit that well with the rest. But it doesn't "ruin" anything.

    Here's an image of the symmetries that I produced many years ago for my article Symmetries on the Bible Wheel where I discuss a number of sub-patterns:



    Thanks again for your very stimulating questions! And don't worry - I don't think I have the "last word" on this. I merely answered your questions to the best of my ability.

    It's really nice to have someone stop by to ask questions about the Bible Wheel and to suggest alternatives.

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Bronx, New York
    Posts
    4
    Wow, Thank you so much for such an in-depth reply. It hurts to see that my thoughts and concepts are still stained by dispensationalism. Being Pentecostal, I was raised in that framework, and lately it's been falling apart before my very eyes. It's a real painful process, but I've learned to accept it and humble myself. I guess the division that I see is not for the Bible Wheel per se, it's more for educational purposes. But here are my replies to some of the things you've pointed out. I'm sorry if it sounds extremely preachy as I'm still learning how to organize my thoughts and fine tune my theology.

    Second, the group you call "Letters written to seasoned Jew believers" was invented by the Dispensationalists who invented the doctrine of "two distinct peoples of God" (Christians and Israelites), and who say that the letters to the Jews don't even apply to Christians. It is a very recent innovation without any valid support from the text as far as I can tell.
    I didn't know I was a dispensationalist until very recently. There hasn't been a bible teacher in my church for several years. I decided to study on my own. I personally no longer believe in two distinct peoples as far as the Body of Christ is concerned. We are all Spiritual Jews, In Christ, we are all One. So when I say "seasoned Jew believers", what I really mean is "Mature Christian believers who have been in the faith for so long and should know better." For example the ideas of being holy because God is holy and living a sinless life becomes the main focus after Hebrews. (Yet the idea that we are saved by grace alone and not by the works that we do, is found mainly between Romans and 2 Thessalonians. But Both Faith AND works are VERY important to the Christian. James is very clear on this.) And it is in the book of Romans that Paul emphasizes that Both the Jews and the Greeks fall short of the glory of God. It's clear that the Jews are also "Spiritual Gentiles" so that ALL have to go through the transition from Milk (Romans - 2 Thessalonians) to Meat (Hebrews - Revelation). The Gateway is Jesus and the ENTIRE world has to go through Him if they want to understand Truth and Life.

    Second, there is absolutely no validity to the idea that the ability to understand the OT Symbolism is genetically or culturally based upon being Jewish. People who understand the OT do so because they have STUDIED it. And besides, many "Jewish Christians" have rejected traditional Christian doctrine such as the Trinity and the freedom from the Law because of their devotion to OT practices and a failure to understand how the church fulfilled prophecy.
    This might difficult to understand but Moses had a personal relationship with God. There is no one in history that has had this kind of intimate relationship with God, aside from Jesus Christ Himself. Therefore I personally believe that the Jews have been entrusted with a special revelation of who God is. The Pharisees however kept truth hidden, so did the Catholic priests... So when Paul calls all Christian converts "Spiritual Jews" what he is saying is that they have been personally submerged into a deeper understanding of God through Jesus Christ. Everyone deserves to know the Truth, not just an elite or a select few. That's the only thing that makes someone a Jew. So Physical Jews who reject Jesus Christ have lost that connection with Truth, and therefore have lost the opportunity to be called Jew. They are "those who say they are Jews but are not..."

    As far as the Laws of God are concerned, they are still applicable only when they are Spiritually discerned. They have very profound principles that only find symbolic meaning with your physical body or flesh. "The Flesh profits nothing, its the spirit that gives life." Therefore, Jewish Christians are not wrong to say we should still abide in the Law. This is where the "deeper things" come into play. The Law doesn't save us, instead the Law reveals the wickedness inside of us. That's when we turn to Jesus, from then on the Law helps us to be more like Christ.

    What I mean when I say that you need an understanding of OT to understand Revelation is as follows:

    In Genesis Adam went to "sleep" (died?) and God made Eve to be his Comforter. He said man shall leave his parents and come together as one with his wife. In the new testament Jesus says if I don't leave (die?) then the "comforter" can not come. In revelations the idea of Groom and Bride is all over the place. (Yes, I have an "unorthodox" view of the Holy Spirit.) In Genesis the Serpent went after the woman. In Revelation the Serpent went after the woman. (Why?) Throughout the Old testament atrocities occurred. In Revelation innocent people are killed for simply believing in Jesus. (Why?) There's a real deep connection going on here and if you do not understand the OT then Revelation will not make any sense, and vice versa. It's true that culture has nothing to do with understanding the OT and revelation, but Jews understand the OT better and deeper than anyone else, that's why the Gospel is for the Jew first and then the Gentile.

    I wanna add that some have told me, "Well Jose, You might conclude that the Ends justifies the Means, however, it's impossible to justify all the horrors and absurdities that occurred in the OT, as if Jesus Christ is suppose to make that all better."

    The only thing I can say is "you're right, you can't justify them, that's why there's a hell.. But like Elihu tells Job, "Do you think this is right when you say, ‘My case is more just than God’s,’?" Who are we to act like we understand life better than God? There's a reason for everything..."

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
    Posts
    13,881
    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Sanchez View Post
    Wow, Thank you so much for such an in-depth reply. It hurts to see that my thoughts and concepts are still stained by dispensationalism. Being Pentecostal, I was raised in that framework, and lately it's been falling apart before my very eyes. It's a real painful process, but I've learned to accept it and humble myself. I guess the division that I see is not for the Bible Wheel per se, it's more for educational purposes. But here are my replies to some of the things you've pointed out. I'm sorry if it sounds extremely preachy as I'm still learning how to organize my thoughts and fine tune my theology.
    Hey there Jose,

    I love your honesty. It will never lead you astray. Follow your heart and mind and you will find what you really believe.

    And don't worry about sounding preachy. I'll do my best to listen with open ears.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Sanchez View Post
    I didn't know I was a dispensationalist until very recently. There hasn't been a bible teacher in my church for several years. I decided to study on my own. I personally no longer believe in two distinct peoples as far as the Body of Christ is concerned. We are all Spiritual Jews, In Christ, we are all One. So when I say "seasoned Jew believers", what I really mean is "Mature Christian believers who have been in the faith for so long and should know better." For example the ideas of being holy because God is holy and living a sinless life becomes the main focus after Hebrews. (Yet the idea that we are saved by grace alone and not by the works that we do, is found mainly between Romans and 2 Thessalonians. But Both Faith AND works are VERY important to the Christian. James is very clear on this.) And it is in the book of Romans that Paul emphasizes that Both the Jews and the Greeks fall short of the glory of God. It's clear that the Jews are also "Spiritual Gentiles" so that ALL have to go through the transition from Milk (Romans - 2 Thessalonians) to Meat (Hebrews - Revelation). The Gateway is Jesus and the ENTIRE world has to go through Him if they want to understand Truth and Life.
    That all makes good sense to me (from a Biblical perspective).

    It's funny how many dispensationalists don't know the name or the origin of their beliefs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Sanchez View Post
    This might difficult to understand but Moses had a personal relationship with God. There is no one in history that has had this kind of intimate relationship with God, aside from Jesus Christ Himself. Therefore I personally believe that the Jews have been entrusted with a special revelation of who God is. The Pharisees however kept truth hidden, so did the Catholic priests... So when Paul calls all Christian converts "Spiritual Jews" what he is saying is that they have been personally submerged into a deeper understanding of God through Jesus Christ. Everyone deserves to know the Truth, not just an elite or a select few. That's the only thing that makes someone a Jew. So Physical Jews who reject Jesus Christ have lost that connection with Truth, and therefore have lost the opportunity to be called Jew. They are "those who say they are Jews but are not..."
    Bingo! Your understanding seems very clear to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Sanchez View Post
    As far as the Laws of God are concerned, they are still applicable only when they are Spiritually discerned. They have very profound principles that only find symbolic meaning with your physical body or flesh. "The Flesh profits nothing, its the spirit that gives life." Therefore, Jewish Christians are not wrong to say we should still abide in the Law. This is where the "deeper things" come into play. The Law doesn't save us, instead the Law reveals the wickedness inside of us. That's when we turn to Jesus, from then on the Law helps us to be more like Christ.

    What I mean when I say that you need an understanding of OT to understand Revelation is as follows:

    In Genesis Adam went to "sleep" (died?) and God made Eve to be his Comforter. He said man shall leave his parents and come together as one with his wife. In the new testament Jesus says if I don't leave (die?) then the "comforter" can not come. In revelations the idea of Groom and Bride is all over the place. (Yes, I have an "unorthodox" view of the Holy Spirit.) In Genesis the Serpent went after the woman. In Revelation the Serpent went after the woman. (Why?) Throughout the Old testament atrocities occurred. In Revelation innocent people are killed for simply believing in Jesus. (Why?) There's a real deep connection going on here and if you do not understand the OT then Revelation will not make any sense, and vice versa. It's true that culture has nothing to do with understanding the OT and revelation, but Jews understand the OT better and deeper than anyone else, that's why the Gospel is for the Jew first and then the Gentile.
    Yes, Jesus was speaking of his death and resurrection when he said he had to "leave." And the parallels with Adam sleeping and being wounded in his side when God removed the rib are strong. That seems like accurate typology to me.

    As for the atrocities - those really bother me. They seem so primitive and unnecessarily violent. Indeed, when the Bible says that the Lord is a "man of war" I believe it. The Bible is filled with violence. That's one reason I reject it as an accurate representation of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Sanchez View Post
    I wanna add that some have told me, "Well Jose, You might conclude that the Ends justifies the Means, however, it's impossible to justify all the horrors and absurdities that occurred in the OT, as if Jesus Christ is suppose to make that all better."

    The only thing I can say is "you're right, you can't justify them, that's why there's a hell.. But like Elihu tells Job, "Do you think this is right when you say, ‘My case is more just than God’s,’?" Who are we to act like we understand life better than God? There's a reason for everything..."
    Actually, the concept of hell is the worst atrocity of all, since it is an eternal evil that is never redeemed. I wouldn't say my case is more just than God's, but I am quite certain that my case is more just than the Bible's. And that's another reason I reject the Bible as an accurate representation of God.

    What evil would the Bible have to attribute to God before you would reject it? Genocide? He did that. Infanticide. He did that. Setting the value of women as half that of men? He did that. Letting a man steal another man's wife, and then murder that man without any direct punishment? He did that.

    So the big question is this. Should we believe the Bible, and if so, why?

    Great chatting Jose!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may edit your posts
  •