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  1. #21
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    If I don't kill someone and then raised him up, can I prove that I can resurrect the dead? Can I prove that human death can be conquered? If God can kill and raise His own Son, how much more can He kill and raise people?

    God Blessed us all.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    If I don't kill someone and then raised him up, can I prove that I can resurrect the dead? Can I prove that human death can be conquered? If God can kill and raise His own Son, how much more can He kill and raise people?

    God Blessed us all.
    You don't have to kill someone - folks die all the time.

    And besides, how does the Bible story "prove" that God can raise someone from the dead. If he really wanted to PROVE IT he would have Jesus show up and say "Yo! Here I am. I was dead but now I'm alive." As it is, all we have is an ancient book that tells us the story. That's a far cry from any kind of "proof."
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    Why can't God forgive without killing Jesus?

    Hey Ram, You’re condemning the ‘Greatest Story Ever Told’ without realizing that Jesus is ALIVE. He’s telling us a Life and Death story in Life and Death terms! Like the Pharoah’s Butler took Communion and got Life, but the Baker had the wrong kind of Bread in his top basket, and he died! Sure, you’re entitled to your opinion, or the notions of institutionalized men, but you need God’s Word on the top shelf.

    So we know we only have ~4 or 5-score at best, but we DON’T KNOW what lies beyond. Houdini hasn’t returned. Maybe we won’t want to return, or be unable – eye has not seen, nor ear heard; neither has entered into the heart, the things which God(Love) has prepared….

    And, while I’m at it jce, loved your declaration, and reminded me of myself too! :bornagain:
    Hey there dux,

    I am not "condemning" the story. I simply questioned it and found it wanting in evidence and logic.

    You call the Bible "God's Word." How then do you deal with the fact that it contains errors, contradictions, and moral abominations attributed to God?

    I know we don't know what lies beyond. And that means you don't know either. You just have beliefs that you have accepted uncritically. It's the same thing as the Mormons and the Muslims who accept their dogmas uncritically. The only way to know if you are correct is to take the plunge into the ocean of truth and put the Bible to the same test as every other book that claims to be from God. But to do that, you must be willing to follow truth where ever it leads. You must be willing to use a "just balance" - the same rules of logic that you would apply to anything else. As it is, I get the impression that believers have a double standard. They do not apply the same criteria of logic and evidence to the Bible as the do to everything else.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    Remember it was on that THIRD DAY, the Pharoah's Birthday, when the Butler & Baker got their reward. The 3rd Day scriptures are sprinkled or salted thru the Bible..
    That's true. Jonah three days and three nights. Etc. It was a literary pattern established very early in the Bible.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Hey there dux,

    I am not "condemning" the story. I simply questioned it and found it wanting in evidence and logic.

    You call the Bible "God's Word." How then do you deal with the fact that it contains errors, contradictions, and moral abominations attributed to God?

    I know we don't know what lies beyond. And that means you don't know either. You just have beliefs that you have accepted uncritically. It's the same thing as the Mormons and the Muslims who accept their dogmas uncritically. The only way to know if you are correct is to take the plunge into the ocean of truth and put the Bible to the same test as every other book that claims to be from God. But to do that, you must be willing to follow truth where ever it leads. You must be willing to use a "just balance" - the same rules of logic that you would apply to anything else. As it is, I get the impression that believers have a double standard. They do not apply the same criteria of logic and evidence to the Bible as the do to everything else.
    The errors and contradictions in the bible is in the eye of the beholder to believe if it is or not. The moral abominations are plenty in the OT, and that many is attributes to God, but in the NT, we are never to kill again the blood of man, but the spirit of man, so that the Spirit of God can come in, something like that symbolic.
    Just because we are influenced in Jesus way of love in forgiveness and and the teaching that God loves us all and all can come to God through the light Jesus, is now taken over by secular non-believers of that, does not mean that being a non-believer is the right way.

    And now it is an abomination to read the bloody history we know about the history of man in the bible and other places, thats what the influence of Jesus has done to the world, seeing that killing a man is an abomination and all the other abominations.

    But that influence is to be taken over by non-believers who say Jesus is not the owner of this love like the "evil workers"-parable.
    Human evolution without Jesus can cause this love, it's just natural they say.
    I've read you and Rose say, that you could have wrote a better book than the bible as a truth that will make man evolve better.
    I don't believe in men, every men is a liar, but God in the bible looks to me as the truth even witth all the so called errors and abominations, it dose'nt make me look at that to have a court-room where i can blame God. Jesus is the middle-point, and from there, the revelations of the bible is just super cool, and loveley. The revelations i have got from all over the world of different preachers and searching the internet, revealing Jesus in the OT in many ways, and the bible math, or your discovery of the bible-wheel.
    All that, so that i can rest in the things i don't understand, untill it is understood, or when i come to place in after-life where i see the whole picture.

    And of all the religion, Jesus is the best, i think it's the truth, and for the many directions of chritianity, i need wisdom.
    And for the Hell-doctrine, i think God is righteouss, we can either have this life, 120+-years, or we can have this and the eternal life, for people who never have the choice to choose Jesus, the way of the man's heart comes in, if you choose to let it be filled with things that bends your life to not regret the evil things in life, then this is the only life for you.
    But if you know about the person Jesus in the bible and reject Him, your heart is evil, and maybe this life is the only life you will live.
    I know many people who dont believe in Jesus, they are good persons, influenced by love to give love, and i believe pure love comes from God, but it can be manipulated by man, so it seems to be love, but it's just self-love.
    They can have a good life when they are giving love, because giving love is a God-life, but if they hear about Jesus and reject Him, they want the love to be their own, being their own lovers and forgivers, well, if this life is the only life they want, go ahead, i believe if you give Jesus the glory, eternal life will be your crown, is it selfish, no, not at all, you are a person who stands for what God wants to give to everybody.

    And for the healing part, it's stupid to think that God will make it obvious to everybody all the time.
    God does not want you to fear Him as it would be if He showed openley all the healings, or just cracked open the dimensions to heaven up in the sky everyday. People would not love Him anymore, they would not feel they have free will anymore, they would just downright fear Him as a monster.
    They would complain ALL the time. Thats why the knowlegde of good and evil and the eternal life must be divided in two trees.

  6. #26
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    Hey there Roberto,

    Welcome back ... it's been a while!



    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto View Post
    The errors and contradictions in the bible is in the eye of the beholder to believe if it is or not.
    I don't understand your comment. Christians claim that the Bible is TRUE. If it contains errors and contradictions then rational people cannot believe it is entirely true. That's why the errors and contradictions are a real problem. They are not merely subjective and "in the eye of the beholder" - they really exist. That's why Christian apologists write whole books like "When Critics Ask," "Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties," and "Evidence that Demands a Verdict."

    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto View Post
    The moral abominations are plenty in the OT, and that many is attributes to God, but in the NT, we are never to kill again the blood of man, but the spirit of man, so that the Spirit of God can come in, something like that symbolic.
    Just because we are influenced in Jesus way of love in forgiveness and and the teaching that God loves us all and all can come to God through the light Jesus, is now taken over by secular non-believers of that, does not mean that being a non-believer is the right way.
    I understand your symbolism, but it doesn't solve the problem of the moral abominations attributed to God in the OT. Did God change from immoral to moral? How can we believe that Jesus - the Second Person of the Trinity - ordered genocide and the taking of 32,000 virgins?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto View Post
    And now it is an abomination to read the bloody history we know about the history of man in the bible and other places, thats what the influence of Jesus has done to the world, seeing that killing a man is an abomination and all the other abominations.
    If killing is such an abomination, why did God order that everyone in the Promised Land be murdered and their land and houses STOLEN by the Israelites?
    Deuteronomy 6:10 And it shall be, when the LORD thy God shall have brought thee into the land which he sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give thee great and goodly cities, which thou buildedst not, 11 And houses full of all good things, which thou filledst not, and wells digged, which thou diggedst not, vineyards and olive trees, which thou plantedst not; when thou shalt have eaten and be full;
    This is not the same morality as we see in the NT.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto View Post
    Human evolution without Jesus can cause this love, it's just natural they say.
    I think that is true. Morality and Goodness and Love are truly natural to humans and grounded in human nature. They have nothing to do with a god.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto View Post
    I've read you and Rose say, that you could have wrote a better book than the bible as a truth that will make man evolve better.
    Well, that's not exactly what we said. But yes, I do believe we could make a better bible by removing the errors, contradictions, and moral abominations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto View Post
    I don't believe in men, every men is a liar, but God in the bible looks to me as the truth even witth all the so called errors and abominations, it dose'nt make me look at that to have a court-room where i can blame God.
    One problem - it is men who gave you the Bible! So if they are corrupt and untrustworthy, why do you trust the Bible they produced?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto View Post
    Jesus is the middle-point, and from there, the revelations of the bible is just super cool, and loveley. The revelations i have got from all over the world of different preachers and searching the internet, revealing Jesus in the OT in many ways, and the bible math, or your discovery of the bible-wheel.
    Yes, there are a lot of amazing things in the Bible. I believed it for over ten years. But now I think I was blinded by the light. There is also a dark side to the Bible. And worse, no one agrees about much of what it says. Everyone just makes up their own version of the religion. So it seems obvious to me that it is not the truth of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto View Post
    And of all the religion, Jesus is the best, i think it's the truth, and for the many directions of chritianity, i need wisdom.
    There is much that is good about Jesus. But there also is much that is very bad about the doctrines of Christianity. Like hell, for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto View Post
    And for the Hell-doctrine, i think God is righteouss, we can either have this life, 120+-years, or we can have this and the eternal life, for people who never have the choice to choose Jesus, the way of the man's heart comes in, if you choose to let it be filled with things that bends your life to not regret the evil things in life, then this is the only life for you.
    But if you know about the person Jesus in the bible and reject Him, your heart is evil, and maybe this life is the only life you will live.
    So you think it would be "righteous" for God to send unbelievers to a place of eternal conscious torment? I cannot imagine that to be true. It is too cruel. Too evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto View Post
    I know many people who dont believe in Jesus, they are good persons, influenced by love to give love, and i believe pure love comes from God, but it can be manipulated by man, so it seems to be love, but it's just self-love.
    Love others as you love yourself. How can you do that if you don't love yourself?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto View Post
    And for the healing part, it's stupid to think that God will make it obvious to everybody all the time.
    God does not want you to fear Him as it would be if He showed openley all the healings, or just cracked open the dimensions to heaven up in the sky everyday. People would not love Him anymore, they would not feel they have free will anymore, they would just downright fear Him as a monster.
    They would complain ALL the time. Thats why the knowlegde of good and evil and the eternal life must be divided in two trees.
    I used to think along those lines. I thought that was why God hid the perfection of the Bible from the eyes of unbelievers. If the Bible were obviously perfect and from God it would burn people like the noon sun in a desert - there would be no grace.

    But that doesn't solve the problem that God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers because the Bible and all Christians teach that we are supposed to TRUST GOD for all our needs and he will provide. That is not true, so the Bible is false. People who think God really answers prayers are not thinking clearly. They would get the same results if they prayed to a milk jug:



    Great chatting!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    You don't have to kill someone - folks die all the time.

    And besides, how does the Bible story "prove" that God can raise someone from the dead. If he really wanted to PROVE IT he would have Jesus show up and say "Yo! Here I am. I was dead but now I'm alive." As it is, all we have is an ancient book that tells us the story. That's a far cry from any kind of "proof."
    I am surprised that you can't understand such basic Christian theology! Jesus was sent to heal the sick and raised the dead to prove that God has the power to overcome death, "Death, where is thy sting?" and to fulfil what the Scripture said:

    Luke 24:46
    He told them, 'This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,


    And we were told,"Do not fear men who can kill the body but not the soul, Fear God who can destroy both body and soul in hell". Even when Jesus raised the dead in front of their eyes, they did not believe:

    Mark 6:14
    King Herod heard about this, for Jesus’ name had become well known. Some were saying, 'John the Baptist has been raised from the dead, and that is why miraculous powers are at work in him.'
    Which has more impact, to raise the dead or to get His Son killed by the Romans and raised Him up? So God decided to allow His Son, Jesus, to be killed by crucifixion and raised Him 3 days later so as to create greater impact, they still did not believe Him. What do you think God will do?

    Maththew 21:33 'Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.
    35 'The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.

    38 'But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.


    40 'Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?'

    41 'He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,' they replied, 'and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.'



    God Blessed.
    Last edited by CWH; 04-19-2012 at 08:34 AM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    I am surprised that you can't understand such basic Christian theology!
    I understand Christian theology a thousand times better than you. Quit being absurd.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Jesus was sent to heal the sick and raised the dead to prove that God has the power to overcome death and to fulfil what the Scripture said:

    Luke 24:46
    He told them, 'This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,

    If that was his intent, then he failed miserably because he left no proof of anything. All we have is a book so confused that even Christians can't agree about what it means.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    And we were told,"Do not fear men who can kill the body but not the soul, Fear God who can destroy both body and soul in hell". Even when Jesus raised the dead in front of their eyes, they did not believe:

    Mark 6:14
    King Herod heard about this, for Jesus’ name had become well known. Some were saying, 'John the Baptist has been raised from the dead, and that is why miraculous powers are at work in him.'
    Which has more impact, to raise the dead or to get His Son killed by the Romans and raised Him up? So God decided to allow His Son, Jesus, to be killed by crucifixion and raised Him 3 days later so as to create greater impact, they still did not believe Him.
    He didn't do it to "create greater impact." According to Christian theology, he did it to bear the sins of the world.

    If it was to "prove" something then it failed because people could see it and still not believe (according to the Bible anyway).

    Christian theology says that no one can believe unless God opens their hearts and minds. Get with the program.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Hey there Roberto,

    Welcome back ... it's been a while!




    I don't understand your comment. Christians claim that the Bible is TRUE. If it contains errors and contradictions then rational people cannot believe it is entirely true. That's why the errors and contradictions are a real problem. They are not merely subjective and "in the eye of the beholder" - they really exist. That's why Christian apologists write whole books like "When Critics Ask," "Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties," and "Evidence that Demands a Verdict."


    I understand your symbolism, but it doesn't solve the problem of the moral abominations attributed to God in the OT. Did God change from immoral to moral? How can we believe that Jesus - the Second Person of the Trinity - ordered genocide and the taking of 32,000 virgins?


    If killing is such an abomination, why did God order that everyone in the Promised Land be murdered and their land and houses STOLEN by the Israelites?
    Deuteronomy 6:10 And it shall be, when the LORD thy God shall have brought thee into the land which he sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give thee great and goodly cities, which thou buildedst not, 11 And houses full of all good things, which thou filledst not, and wells digged, which thou diggedst not, vineyards and olive trees, which thou plantedst not; when thou shalt have eaten and be full;
    This is not the same morality as we see in the NT.


    I think that is true. Morality and Goodness and Love are truly natural to humans and grounded in human nature. They have nothing to do with a god.


    Well, that's not exactly what we said. But yes, I do believe we could make a better bible by removing the errors, contradictions, and moral abominations.


    One problem - it is men who gave you the Bible! So if they are corrupt and untrustworthy, why do you trust the Bible they produced?


    Yes, there are a lot of amazing things in the Bible. I believed it for over ten years. But now I think I was blinded by the light. There is also a dark side to the Bible. And worse, no one agrees about much of what it says. Everyone just makes up their own version of the religion. So it seems obvious to me that it is not the truth of God.


    There is much that is good about Jesus. But there also is much that is very bad about the doctrines of Christianity. Like hell, for example.


    So you think it would be "righteous" for God to send unbelievers to a place of eternal conscious torment? I cannot imagine that to be true. It is too cruel. Too evil.


    Love others as you love yourself. How can you do that if you don't love yourself?


    I used to think along those lines. I thought that was why God hid the perfection of the Bible from the eyes of unbelievers. If the Bible were obviously perfect and from God it would burn people like the noon sun in a desert - there would be no grace.

    But that doesn't solve the problem that God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers because the Bible and all Christians teach that we are supposed to TRUST GOD for all our needs and he will provide. That is not true, so the Bible is false. People who think God really answers prayers are not thinking clearly. They would get the same results if they prayed to a milk jug:



    Great chatting!

    Richard
    I could take time and qoute question to answer, but, i think you can understand. It is hard to understand people before in the OT, but it looks like killing was no problem then, so it can be that people where very evil, and that slaves is easy with punishment as death, so to keep sin away, sin had to be hard punished. So the loving and forgiving did'nt work when a whole bunch of people were to driven away. You say God didn't do good enough for you in the OT. I wonder if He can explain it to you, but it looks like you will never be satisfied with an answer as long as the bible is not to be changed. The bible is a history of a fall in sin, you are out to look for the life of angels, where everybody see God and act respectively to Him, because they see Him, but also there is free will and Satan and His army are cast out to do evil against us that God now has a finished plan to rescue us from this evil, and be higher than angels, because we choose God, even if we don't see Him.

    Ok, so you can make a better bible, i Think many has tried it, and failed, maybe you want to be worshipped? And are jeaolous of God in the bible that has so many followers even if the bible looks confusing.
    If you are so smart, why is'nt here any people in here in this forum that goes away from the faith of Jesus, and over to your godless-believement?
    And your theory about being in Gods mind seeing patterns like a mandala, is just more confusing than the bible.

    Men wrote the bible, but if it were just by men, the bible would look more like other religions, in my eyes, the bible is totally far from other religions, and that the bible has taken stories from other pagan stories is just stupid to me, because the bible has the long red line through it all, and not cut and paste. It's more likeley to me that the pagan stories are cuts off from a real story that you can find in the bible.

    Who says eternal tornement? The symbols in the bible? I believe the after-life is the end of your life if you choose darkness instead of light, but also a place where every question is anwered, and while you get answered, but cannot enter the light, is like an eternal tornement, but as soon as every question is answered, you are cut off dead. But thats my theory of what i read, we are not too know everything but we see things like a mirror of our life. But if you don't like Jesus, you don't like the light and pure love you can get of giving away your self-love, to get pure love giving Jesus the hounor of love.

    And your obsession of saying God as a general rule does not answer prayers looks alot like testing God without believing in Him. Even Jesus didnt test God, when the devil said He should test God. And you think that should make people not believe in God anymore, stupid devilish tactic. Stop praying, just stop, sounds like the devil there.
    Even if we are not answered, we get answered, we know this life is short, and the prayers in this life is fully answeres in heaven, you are just being wordly, when we should be hokuspokused up from a wheelchair every wheelchairhandikapped. I believe in Medicine and doctors as well as God as my healer, no problem so far. So christians that makes problems with stupid faith that God should just fix in a second with a healing, is maybe doing worse and not healing the believers because their spirit is sick. But it looks like you are just thinking against God.

    But maybe you are most needed for God, for Gods people not to be so close minded and unintelligent, but i believe Jesus is a needed faith to be really cleansed. Who knows, maybe you accept Jesus as your saviour inner most, but i think the further more in sin you are, the more you hate Jesus, but, the thing with Jesus, when a big sinner finally believes in Him, it will be a big love turn. Jesus should be preached in jails again, i see jail not doing better to men in hter, they are just becoming worse when they get out, maybe because men has taken Jesus out of being preached in prisons.
    Last edited by Roberto; 04-19-2012 at 03:18 PM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto View Post
    Jesus should be preached in jails again, i see jail not doing better to men in hter, they are just becoming worse when they get out, maybe because men has taken Jesus out of being preached in prisons.
    Hello Roberto.

    Apart from who you think Satan is, I agree with a lot of your comments. I was struck by your comment in the quote above.

    A man I learned of last year and had the opportunity of meeting, I was very interested to hear his story. It is amazing sthe life some people lead. He is now an evangelist preaching in prisons. If you get time, you might be interested to listen to his story.

    Here is the link to his video in which he tells his real-life story.

    http://vimeo.com/31483225

    All the best.

    David

    PS I found streaming of video is broken half-way through. Have notified owners at the following link. You can see the work they do spreading the Gospel inside prisons.

    http://www.avantiministries.com
    Last edited by David M; 04-20-2012 at 12:11 AM. Reason: PS added

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