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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi David,
    Wow! Those are some pretty harsh words! Sounds to me like the Bible has really hardened your heart, to be able to speak of all the innocent people that were killed by Yahweh as being "reprobates" and "dispensable". I am stunned
    Hello Rose
    I am not hard-hearted, and I am not delusioned. Be careful, Ricard is banning delusional peoplefromthe forum. It is delusion if you think man will change his ways without God's intervention. God will intervene and put things right by sending His Son back to the earth to set up God's kingdom, but are you giving yourself a chance to experience the change that will come under Christs rule? I would reserve judgement till you see what God does and and if women don't have the equal rights at the end of the millennium, I might campaign with you, but that will not be necessary


    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    VENGEANCE, Vengeance, vengeance, that's all I hear from Yahweh...and what is the reason for all this vengeance that I read about in the Bible, well it's because people didn't worship him the way he wanted them to! Wow! Talk about a BIG ego. What kind of an example is that? It's like a parent killing their children because they don't worship them enough.
    Stop reading about vengeance, the Bible has a lot of good news to read about. Instead of reading about the bad stuff,concentrat your mind on all the positive things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    How can my perception of Yahweh ever change when his character is un-changeably written in the pages of the Bible?
    Your perception of God will only change when you stop repeating you bad assertions and focus on the promises of God and all the good He has done. It is good that God is unchangeable, or else I could not trust Him. I have tried to make you see as with the example of Rahab, God provides a way of salvation for the faithful. I cannot agree with you defending the indefensible. You think people can go on doing what they are doing and everything will turn out for the good. In the last 6,000 years the evil side of man's nature has not diminished. It was extremely bad pre Flood, and it is getting that way again. Instead of only 8 souls being saved, we can say that God will save many more souls in the next great shakeup the world will experience.

    You appear to me to have hardened your heart towards be God. God is not hardening your heart, it is of your own making. With a hardened heart, you have become inflexible to seeing the good and getting the attrocities into their correct perspective. I would not expect your solution to solving the world's problems and to rid the world of evi,l to stand any chance.The danger is that unless God intervenes soon, we might not have a planet long enough for your any solution to work. God has the solution and He will send Jesus back.

    All the best,
    David

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ali View Post
    How can human being distinguish evil from good without a manual? God is the only all-knower, thus only His words can be THE manual. If any human prescribes/proposes a manual for himself or others, he/she will end up claiming to be that all-knower, his/her own God !! and this is a contradiction!

    Ali.
    I don't think that makes sense. When anyone "reads the Manual" they are interpreting it according to their own understanding and JUDGING what it says according to their own moral standards which are based on their own moral intutions. This should be pretty obvious because everyone who "reads the Manual" interprets it differently. Case in point - you interpretation is radically different than almost all other people who have ever read the book.

    It is a logical fallacy to claim that you must be the "all knower" to make any moral judgments. You make moral judgments all day long, and you are not the "all knower."

    Your assertion that "God is the only all-knower" and that the Bible is his "manual" has no foundation in fact. That is merely an assertion that you make, and in doing so you have set yourself up as the ultimate judge who "knows" something that is in fact quite false. The Bible cannot be the infallible and inerrant Word of God because it cantains errors, contradictions, and moral abominations attributed to God. Now if you go about trying to "fix it" and "explain away" all its problems, you will be setting yourself up as judge and interpretor of the Bible, and that means that the Bible is not "guiding" you at all. You are merely using your own intellect and moral intuitions as the ultimate guide when you use them to "fix" the Bible.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Rose

    Stop reading about vengeance, the Bible has a lot of good news to read about. Instead of reading about the bad stuff,concentrate your mind on all the positive things.
    Hi David,

    So, are you saying I should ignore all the atrocities that God ordained in the Bible and instead focus on the positive things? Well, to me that seems like willful blindness which is sort of what I did for all the years I considered myself a Christian.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Your perception of God will only change when you stop repeating you bad assertions and focus on the promises of God and all the good He has done. It is good that God is unchangeable, or else I could not trust Him. I have tried to make you see as with the example of Rahab, God provides a way of salvation for the faithful. I cannot agree with you defending the indefensible. You think people can go on doing what they are doing and everything will turn out for the good. In the last 6,000 years the evil side of man's nature has not diminished. It was extremely bad pre Flood, and it is getting that way again. Instead of only 8 souls being saved, we can say that God will save many more souls in the next great shakeup the world will experience.
    Quite the opposite it true! God constantly changes his mind throughout the Old and New Testaments.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    You appear to me to have hardened your heart towards be God. God is not hardening your heart, it is of your own making. With a hardened heart, you have become inflexible to seeing the good and getting the attrocities into their correct perspective. I would not expect your solution to solving the world's problems and to rid the world of evi,l to stand any chance.The danger is that unless God intervenes soon, we might not have a planet long enough for your any solution to work. God has the solution and He will send Jesus back.

    All the best,
    David
    My heart is not hardening, but rather it is growing more compassionate, and empathic all the time. The Bible teaches people to harden their hearts, because they must accept all the immoralities it contains as somehow being just.

    All the best,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi David,
    So, are you saying I should ignore all the atrocities that God ordained in the Bible and instead focus on the positive things? Well, to me that seems like willful blindness which is sort of what I did for all the years I considered myself a Christian.

    Quite the opposite it true! God constantly changes his mind throughout the Old and New Testaments.

    My heart is not hardening, but rather it is growing more compassionate, and empathic all the time. The Bible teaches people to harden their hearts, because they must accept all the immoralities it contains as somehow being just.

    All the best,
    Rose
    Tell me all the compassionate and emphatic things that you do or think and I can tell you that many of the things that you think are compassionate are in fact uncompassionate. Give it a try!

    God Blessed.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  5. #15
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    Thank you for your comments Richard,

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    I don't think that makes sense. When anyone "reads the Manual" they are interpreting it according to their own understanding and JUDGING what it says according to their own moral standards which are based on their own moral intutions. This should be pretty obvious because everyone who "reads the Manual" interprets it differently. Case in point - you interpretation is radically different than almost all other people who have ever read the book.
    Absolutely agree! This is how God wanted it to be: whoever comes cleaner in heart, will be qualified to get more polished understandings of the manual. So It depends on the reader's "heart", that's why interpretations differ from one heart to another. If we approach His words with heart pre-occupied, we will get less and less, in some point nothing at all. If we clean all pre-occupations, I call them dirt, and let His words, I call it light, shape the axioms in our heart, then the matter will change drastically. I said it before: clean your heart from any humanism, any doctrine, any definition of self, God, religion etc, and then approach the word of God. Let the word of God shape your understandings and you will witness your structure of understanding will change forever in respect to your previous system that was built on humanism and rationality grounds.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    It is a logical fallacy to claim that you must be the "all knower" to make any moral judgments. You make moral judgments all day long, and you are not the "all knower."
    I never claimed to be the all-knower eye. Did I? I said we must approach with clean heart, that's all I have said so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Your assertion that "God is the only all-knower" and that the Bible is his "manual" has no foundation in fact. That is merely an assertion that you make, and in doing so you have set yourself up as the ultimate judge who "knows" something that is in fact quite false. The Bible cannot be the infallible and inerrant Word of God because it cantains errors, contradictions, and moral abominations attributed to God. Now if you go about trying to "fix it" and "explain away" all its problems, you will be setting yourself up as judge and interpretor of the Bible, and that means that the Bible is not "guiding" you at all. You are merely using your own intellect and moral intuitions as the ultimate guide when you use them to "fix" the Bible.
    I never said Bible should be fixed ! I said "our perception of Bible", "the engine that interprets the bible" (our hearts) should get a fix ! That's a whole different point. His words will not need anyone (either me or you) for any fixation. I provided some practical ways that even have scientific grounds as well:
    1-Put the media away from your life (has scientific grounds). 2-Watch your deeds and match it up as much as you can according to His words. 3- Repent and ask him and be patient until "your heart gets fixed" with His words. This is his unique way and this is indeed a simple way.

    Richard,
    I have noticed that you are repeating this ground over and over that Bible contains errors and contradictions. But I have not seen any proof? Do you have any article published regarding this matter, numbering these contradictions? I'd be glad to take a look at your cases and if you don't mind provide my counter arguments later for that.

    Thanks.
    Ali.

  6. #16
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    Hello Rose

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi David,

    So, are you saying I should ignore all the atrocities that God ordained in the Bible and instead focus on the positive things? Well, to me that seems like willful blindness which is sort of what I did for all the years I considered myself a Christian.
    It is willful blindness on your part that you are not looking at the compassionate side of God and all the good things He has promised and has done. I think (in my humble opinion) that when you say you were a Christian, you have not had the Truth within you. You were one of the many so-called Christians who do not know who the true God of the Bible is or who the true Jesus of the Bible is. Deny this all you want, the facts as I read them say to me; you have not.

    Why do you think God has put on record these terrible events of wars and killings? Why would God put on record events to show himself as an unjust God, when God has declared that He is just? These events have been recorded for our learning, but you fail to understand the underlying message. Instead, it appears you have rejected God altogether and you have aligned yourself with reprobates, who have also rejected God and your spiritual ears are deaf. You are dead in your thoughts towards God, and as Jesus said; "Let the dead bury the dead"If it were not for the fact that in your message (which needs balancing) there is the danger of perverting young minds, I would not be wasting my time corresponding with a reprobate who is already dead. I can see why God gives up with reprobates; yet God is far more patient than I am. I will try to be more patient and continue so that you might reason again and change your mind again. I just wish you had not given me reason to have these thoughts about you. Please give me good reasons not to come to this conclusion.

    You can be as sympathetic as you like to reprobates, but it will not get you anywhere with God; only brownie points with your fellow reprobates. In another post yesterday, I quoted the verse which says; (Heb 11:6)[COLOR="#0000FF"]"he (God) is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him" and this has been in my mind overnight. Are you trying to understand why God has recorded these terrible events of wars and killings? Are you scratching below the veneer on the surface and find meaning to the face value of the words in order to get to the the real cause of why these terrible events happened? If you are doing this, then I see this as commendable and you are still seeking God. There is much I do not understand in the Bible. I have lots more to find out, and therefore, I am still seeking God and learning from Him every day.

    God has given us examples of where He has saved those who believed in Him. God knows who are His. This is what I believe and I leave it to God to save those who He knows are His. Jonah did want to preach to Ninevah; afterwards, God said to Jonah; should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; It has to make one wonder about those cities like Sodom and Gomorrah which God did not spare, if He spared Ninevah. Ninevah, received the message Jonah delivered to them and they repented. Rose, repent again; there is time.

    God knows the intent of all hearts, and so I leave all judgement to God. I am not righteous enough to be able to judge others. I am unable to judge you, my judgement is imperfect, and I can only state as I find, and I accept that my findings might not be true. I am of the opinion you are not seeking God, and you are finding every reason possible to reject Him.

    "For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he:" (Prov 23:7) (). I am saying, concentrate on the positive aspects of God for a while. Feed the mind with the good things about God. Don't keep feeding on the terrible events which you are not seeing in the proper context, and especially if you are not studying these things to find out how God is exercising justice in what He does. If you are unable to understand why, it would be better to focus your mind on the good things and stay connected to God. Only by concentrating on the negatives you have built up in your mind, you become trapped in those negative thoughts. To my mind, they are devilish thoughts to be resisted. "Resist the devil and he will flee from you". . The devil is in your own thoughts and if you constantly harbour devilish thoughts, I cannot see how you will not become what you think. God is offering you the ultimate gift of eternal life. Is not this something worth considering? Is God bad for giving people eternal life? Let God be the judge of others and let us concentrate on getting our own lives in order.

    I connect with Paul who writes; (Rom 7:24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Oh Rose, I wish you could thank God instead of rejecting Him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Quite the opposite it true! God constantly changes his mind throughout the Old and New Testaments.
    It is good that God does change His mind and spares people; don't you see the good in that? Its called mercy and we should be thankful to God for His mercy toward us, and that we do not always receive our just rewards. Our just reward for sin is death and yet God is offering eternal life for just believing in Him and in His only begotten Son. A small price to pay for eternal life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    My heart is not hardening, but rather it is growing more compassionate, and empathic all the time. The Bible teaches people to harden their hearts, because they must accept all the immoralities it contains as somehow being just.
    Sorry Rose, but from what I read, you have already hardened your heart towards God. If someone else (besides Richard) can tell me you have not, then I might stand corrected. You are being compassionate towards reprobates. You are defending the indefensible. If people go to their graves rejecting God, why should God raise them to etenal life to continue to live for ever in His kingdom and allow them to carry on rejecting Him? This makes no sense at all, and that is why it will not happen. If you do not believe in life after death, OK; I say this to all those who believe in Universal Salvation; it is not what God tells us.
    "Life is time to serve the Lord". "Seek the Lord while he can be found" It is too late when you are dead.

    The following is only my thought (no biblical evidence to support this); it could be that all our names are written in the Book of Life from the time we are born. By name, I think of this as our spirit; the "spirit of man". As Jesus said when about to die; "into thy hands I commend my spirit" It is this spirit which God reconnects with the body (immortal body at resurrection). I do not know how, I simply believe what God has promised. If we consider that all our names are written in the Book of Life, we do not have to worry about our names not being entered. Instead, we have to worry about our names being blotted out of the book. At the time of judgement when Christ opens up the Book of Life, will our names be written there? I do not want anyone to blot out their name by rejecting God, especially when God is offering eternal life to those who believe in Him. This is the positive aspect to God that we should keep in the forefront of our mind. God has provided the way for us all to be saved and it is up to us to accept or reject His gift.

    In the words of Paul to the Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren (includes women), whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

    May the God of peace, fill our hearts with understanding.


    David
    Last edited by David M; 04-11-2012 at 02:23 AM.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Rose


    It is willful blindness on your part that you are not looking at the compassionate side of God and all the good things He has promised and has done. I think (in my humble opinion) that when you say you were a Christian, you have not had the Truth within you. You were one of the many so-called Christians who do not know who the true God of the Bible is or who the true Jesus of the Bible is. Deny this all you want, the facts as I read them say to me; you have not.
    Hello David,
    I'm not even going to bother getting into a discussion about something that you have no clue about. I don't need to defend myself about whether or not you think I was a Christian, or whether you think I had the "Truth" in me.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Why do you think God has put on record these terrible events of wars and killings? Why would God put on record events to show himself as an unjust God, when God has declared that He is just? These events have been recorded for our learning, but you fail to understand the underlying message. Instead, it appears you have rejected God altogether and you have aligned yourself with reprobates, who have also rejected God and your spiritual ears are deaf. You are dead in your thoughts towards God, and as Jesus said; "Let the dead bury the dead"If it were not for the fact that in your message (which needs balancing) there is the danger of perverting young minds, I would not be wasting my time corresponding with a reprobate who is already dead. I can see why God gives up with reprobates; yet God is far more patient than I am. I will try to be more patient and continue so that you might reason again and change your mind again. I just wish you had not given me reason to have these thoughts about you. Please give me good reasons not to come to this conclusion.
    The reason the Bible contains all the immoralities, atrocities and killings, is because the Bronze Age men who wrote the Bible thought that was what a god was suppose to be like. There is no need for me to condemn god because he doesn't exist, that is my whole premise of the male-bias of the Bible, to show that the Bible was written by Bronze Age men who created a god in their own image.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    You can be as sympathetic as you like to reprobates, but it will not get you anywhere with God; only brownie points with your fellow reprobates. In another post yesterday, I quoted the verse which says; (Heb 11:6)[COLOR="#0000FF"]"he (God) is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him" and this has been in my mind overnight. Are you trying to understand why God has recorded these terrible events of wars and killings? Are you scratching below the veneer on the surface and find meaning to the face value of the words in order to get to the the real cause of why these terrible events happened? If you are doing this, then I see this as commendable and you are still seeking God. There is much I do not understand in the Bible. I have lots more to find out, and therefore, I am still seeking God and learning from Him every day.
    The people you call reprobates are those who don't believe in your tribal war god, that is what I mean about the Bible causing people like you to harden their hearts. You seem to think it was just fine for Yahweh to slaughter all the men women and children merely because they didn't worship him! How hard is that?

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    God has given us examples of where He has saved those who believed in Him. God knows who are His. This is what I believe and I leave it to God to save those who He knows are His. Jonah did want to preach to Ninevah; afterwards, God said to Jonah; should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; It has to make one wonder about those cities like Sodom and Gomorrah which God did not spare, if He spared Ninevah. Ninevah, received the message Jonah delivered to them and they repented. Rose, repent again; there is time.

    God knows the intent of all hearts, and so I leave all judgement to God. I am not righteous enough to be able to judge others. I am unable to judge you, my judgement is imperfect, and I can only state as I find, and I accept that my findings might not be true. I am of the opinion you are not seeking God, and you are finding every reason possible to reject Him.
    What do you mean? You have already judged me! You say I was not never a Christian, and never had the "Truth" in my heart.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post

    Sorry Rose, but from what I read, you have already hardened your heart towards God. If someone else (besides Richard) can tell me you have not, then I might stand corrected. You are being compassionate towards reprobates. You are defending the indefensible. If people go to their graves rejecting God, why should God raise them to etenal life to continue to live for ever in His kingdom and allow them to carry on rejecting Him? This makes no sense at all, and that is why it will not happen. If you do not believe in life after death, OK; I say this to all those who believe in Universal Salvation; it is not what God tells us.
    "Life is time to serve the Lord". "Seek the Lord while he can be found" It is too late when you are dead.


    May the God of peace, fill our hearts with understanding.


    David
    Of coarse I am being compassionate towards those you call reprobates, because I know the only reason people are labeled reprobates is because they don't believe in and worship the god of the Bible.

    All the best,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Tell me all the compassionate and emphatic things that you do or think and I can tell you that many of the things that you think are compassionate are in fact uncompassionate. Give it a try!

    God Blessed.
    Sorry Cheow, I'm not going to fall into your trap. I'm far to compassionate for that.

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Sorry Cheow, I'm not going to fall into your trap. I'm far to compassionate for that.

    Rose
    Trap? What trap? You think I am here to trap people? I am here to learn and reason. Isn't your motto, "Come, Let us reason together"? On the contrary, I feel that you are closed to reasoning.

    These are some of the questions I am thinking of:
    Examples of compassion that is uncompassionate:
    1. You think it is compassionate not to kill Osama or Hitler?
    2. You think saving infants is always good? Then why all the legal abortions?
    3. You think all inequalities between male and female is always entirely bad?
    4. Is it compassionate not to punish wrongdoers even for minor crimes?

    God Blessed.
    Last edited by CWH; 04-11-2012 at 10:59 AM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

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