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  1. #1

    Smile ALERT Obama State Department Refuses to Acknowledge Jerusalem Capitol of Israel

    Obama state department refuses to acknowledge that Jerusalem is the capitol of Israel.
    http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-T...ital-Of-Israel

    USA in big trouble now.

    Who do Americans think they are telling another sovereign nation what is and isn't their nations capitol?

    The Liberal Democrats are really asking for it now and Obama will not like the outcome.

  2. #2
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    Not to make light of this, but does it really matter to the US if Jerusalem is the capital of secular Israel? While secular Israel has significant historical attraction to Americans, it is not really worth the financial cost of supporting them. Not that I'm anti-Israeli from a political point of view, but they have no real reason for us to be concerned over. At the same time, I know that American zionists, being confused, hold secular Israel in high esteem. But if they understood correctly that the Israel God loves is His Church, then secular Israel would not be as important to them (American Zionists) as the are.

    Joseph
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Not to make light of this, but does it really matter to the US if Jerusalem is the capital of secular Israel? While secular Israel has significant historical attraction to Americans, it is not really worth the financial cost of supporting them. Not that I'm anti-Israeli from a political point of view, but they have no real reason for us to be concerned over. At the same time, I know that American zionists, being confused, hold secular Israel in high esteem. But if they understood correctly that the Israel God loves is His Church, then secular Israel would not be as important to them (American Zionists) as the are.

    Joseph
    Hello Joseph
    I notice that Lotus Feet started this thread. I do not know why she got banned. I was just beginning to appreciate posts like this.

    Physical Israel has a very important part to play on the world stage. Prophecy was not concluded in AD 70. Why do you thing the nation of Israel was established in 1948 if not in fulfillment of prophecy. What takes place in the Middle East and around Israel is extremel important. Jerusalem is where Jesus will reign from when he returns. The land of Israel is Abraham's inheritance which he has not received, but will in the time to come. All nations will be gathered around Israel when God pours out his wrath on the nations. There is a lot of prophecy to be fulfilled and Israel is important.

    Israel to this day do not recognize Christ and one day they will. These are events that have still to happen.

    By the way, we do not always realize this, but depending on how other nations treat Israel, so God causes blessings and cursings on those nations. Countries that help Israel receive blessings and those that oppose Israel receive curses. It was pointed out to me some time ago, that Obama's policy was not favourable towards Israel and he was later to change the policy. While his policy was against Israel, there were a number of disasters in America. This might be regarded as coincidence but God is true to his word (always).
    When God made the promise to Abraham, he said; And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: I think you will find that has been true throughout history. Its a warning to be careful about what we wish to happen to Israel.

    David

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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I notice that Lotus Feet started this thread. I do not know why she got banned. I was just beginning to appreciate posts like this.
    I banned her because she is utterly delusional and writes as if she were speaking directly for God. She claimed to be the "Queen of the South" who has "more wisdom than Solomon." She claims to sit on the "Mercy Seat" which is God's throne. She claimed that many Bible prophecies were about her revealing God's truth in this present "timeline." After trying to reason with her, I found out she was just using this forum to spew her rank insanity, and I didn't think that would be good for the forum or for her to let her continue.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Physical Israel has a very important part to play on the world stage. Prophecy was not concluded in AD 70. Why do you thing the nation of Israel was established in 1948 if not in fulfillment of prophecy. What takes place in the Middle East and around Israel is extremel important. Jerusalem is where Jesus will reign from when he returns. The land of Israel is Abraham's inheritance which he has not received, but will in the time to come. All nations will be gathered around Israel when God pours out his wrath on the nations. There is a lot of prophecy to be fulfilled and Israel is important.
    The secular nation called "Israel" has no continuity with the Israel of the Bible. There are no prophecies that said it would be restored in 1948 or anytime after the judgment came down in 70 AD. The idea that there is a "very important" role for carnal Israel contradicts the entire New Testament which shows that the Temple and Israel were types of Christ and the church. Paul explicitly stated that the church fulfilled the prophecies in Ezekiel and elsewhere that said God would walk in his people. He said that Christians were the CIRCUMCISION which is the technical biblical term for the people in covenant with God. The Old Covenant has passed away.

    The prophecies Christ gave in the Olivet Discourse were centered on the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. There is no way to say those prophecies are future without shredding the text into meaningless fragments. Many Futurists have come here and tried, and they always failed.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Israel to this day do not recognize Christ and one day they will. These are events that have still to happen.
    All the first Christians were Israelites. They were the faithful remnant that recognized Christ when he came. There is no prediction that all physical descendents of Abraham would believe someday. All believers are called "sons of Abraham" and all unbelievers are called "sons of the flesh." Christ himself explicitly denied that the unbelieving Jews were "sons of Abraham" even though they could trace their physical ancestory to him.

    Your doctrines are entirely unbiblical.
    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    By the way, we do not always realize this, but depending on how other nations treat Israel, so God causes blessings and cursings on those nations. Countries that help Israel receive blessings and those that oppose Israel receive curses. It was pointed out to me some time ago, that Obama's policy was not favourable towards Israel and he was later to change the policy. While his policy was against Israel, there were a number of disasters in America. This might be regarded as coincidence but God is true to his word (always).
    When God made the promise to Abraham, he said; And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: I think you will find that has been true throughout history. Its a warning to be careful about what we wish to happen to Israel.

    David
    That's ridiculous. Look at Iran. God has blessed them with vast oil and wealth.

    The attempt to correlate disasters with presidential policies is absurd.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    The attempt to correlate disasters with presidential policies is absurd.
    I am pointing out that these things might not be coincidental. I would not stake my salvation on this claim.

    What do you understand by the saying; "I will bless them that bless thee and curse them that curse thee" Why should God stop continuing with that promise.

    You have closed off your mind after AD70. I have not seen what you have replied to the post we were talking of the big picture. There is a future beyond AD 70 that I am not sure what you believe is going to happen to this earth in say the next 10 to 1000 years. Why has God established the nation of Israel if not to be His witnesses? I have never said the Bible forecast 1948 as the date predicted. The undeniable fact is that by a miracle, the Jews have survived and God has established them as a nation. There are now many unfulfilled prophecies and the fact that you have shut your mind to anything after AD 70 is your failing.
    Get Jude 5 - 11 correctly analysed and then we might start a proper reasoning after we break down the myths that have corrupted your thinking.

    The fact that no futurist has "won" is your boast. I do not give myself labels. I might be futurist, but that does not mean I believe the same as all futurists. If the Futurists have given up with you, I can understand why. It does not mean the futurist arguments are wrong. They are more likely to be correct for not having drawn a line at AD70. You have nowhere to go it would it seem. Let's hope that one day you will free yourself from the cobweb of lies you have surrounded yourself with in which you claim to be free. You are trapped in your thinking as much as anyone else is.

    On to more meaningful discussions.


    David

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    David M
    What do you understand by the saying;
    "I will bless them that bless thee and curse them that curse thee"
    Why should God stop continuing with that promise
    This Abrahamic promise was made to Abraham..... no one else. This promise was not given to his heirs but to him. Abraham was declare rightious by his Faith. Modern Carnal 'Israel' does not fall under this classification. Carnal Israel could never come into The Land in unbelief. Abraham also knew that 'the land' that he was walking on was not his land, it belonged to God and Abraham was only passing through to a better land, Beulah Land.


    Why has God established the nation of Israel if not to be His witnesses?
    A witnesses for what? How to establish a blood thirsty carnal aparthide nation? Israeli humanism is not a witness of God, but of Babylon.


    You are trapped in your thinking as much as anyone else is.
    You over look the fact that the Bible was not written to you, it was written to 'them'..... them of the first century generation. It was to them that the end of the Ages had come. It was the first century general that saw The Death and Sheol thrown in the Lake of Fire. The 'Time of The End' was their time period, not ours or our future. It was The End of The Mosaic Age.... not an ending of some age to come. Do you call it the 'church age' or the 'christian age'. The New Covenant Age has no end. Ram is not a 'christian' and he even understands that 'the bible' was written to and for another people and another age. We have the bible now for our learning and understanding..... so learn and understand....
    Brother Les

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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I am pointing out that these things might not be coincidental. I would not stake my salvation on this claim.
    And I am pointing out that the events are entirely "coincidental" and I gave proof of the falsehood of your premise by noting that God has greatly blessed the Islamic countries that have attacked Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    What do you understand by the saying; "I will bless them that bless thee and curse them that curse thee" Why should God stop continuing with that promise.
    He was talking to Abraham. He's been long dead. And Israel as a nation died in 70 AD. The folks now calling themselves Jews are a mixed race. They've been interbreeding with Gentiles for thousands of years.

    You seem to think that God defines Jews by carnal descent from Abraham. If so, then you have failed to understand the most basic teaching of the NT, which is that BELIEVERS are the only ones counted as the "seed of Abraham." Scripture explicitly states that Abraham is "the father of all them that believe" (Romans 4:11). He is not the "father" of unbelievers, even if they are children of his flesh. This is explicitly taught over and over again in the NT:

    Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

    The term "circumcision" is the technical biblical definition of "Israel." The remnant of the true believing Israel became the Church.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    You have closed off your mind after AD70. I have not seen what you have replied to the post we were talking of the big picture. There is a future beyond AD 70 that I am not sure what you believe is going to happen to this earth in say the next 10 to 1000 years. Why has God established the nation of Israel if not to be His witnesses? I have never said the Bible forecast 1948 as the date predicted. The undeniable fact is that by a miracle, the Jews have survived and God has established them as a nation. There are now many unfulfilled prophecies and the fact that you have shut your mind to anything after AD 70 is your failing.
    I have not shut off my mind in any way at all. I came to the conclusion that the prophecies were fulfilled in 70 AD because that's the only way for a believer to make sense of what the Bible plainly states. It's either that, or the prophecies failed (which as an unbeliever seems to be more likely). The Futurist attempt to shred Scripture to create their speculative and false eschatology makes a mockery of the Bible.

    Who says that "God established" the modern secular state of Israel? Why should we believe that? They still hate God according to the Christian dogma that states anyone who hates Christ hates God. How do those unbelievers serve as a "witness" for God?

    It is not an "undeniable fact" that the survival of Jews is a miracle though I will grant that there is good enough reasons for BELIEVERS to BELIEVE that. But note ... we're talking about "belief" here and that's totally different than "fact."

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Get Jude 5 - 11 correctly analysed and then we might start a proper reasoning after we break down the myths that have corrupted your thinking.
    Dude - you have no foundation for such an absurd assertion. You have been interpreting a man-made translation using man-made dictionaries and thinking that you are interpreting "God's Word." You are willfully ignorant of all the historical information that is required to properly understand the Bible which was written thousands of years ago in languages that you don't even know. You don't even realize that you are depend critically upon the judgments of men who translated it and who put together the dictionaries and lexicons. The Bible is filled with unexplained references to aspects of the Ancient Near East culture of which you know nothing if you don't read books and inform yourself. But you think your are only "interpreting God's Word." What rubbish!

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    The fact that no futurist has "won" is your boast. I do not give myself labels. I might be futurist, but that does not mean I believe the same as all futurists. If the Futurists have given up with you, I can understand why. It does not mean the futurist arguments are wrong. They are more likely to be correct for not having drawn a line at AD70. You have nowhere to go it would it seem. Let's hope that one day you will free yourself from the cobweb of lies you have surrounded yourself with in which you claim to be free. You are trapped in your thinking as much as anyone else is.
    Ha! If there were such a "cobweb of lies" then why can't you show even one?

    I've exposed many or the errors that have trapped your mind.

    It's a lot easier to proclaim victory than to prove it. I dare you to expose my "cobweb of lies." I doubt you will even try because you know that you are just spewing empty rhetoric because you have been unable to support your dogmas with logic and facts.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Les View Post
    This Abrahamic promise was made to Abraham..... no one else. This promise was not given to his heirs but to him. Abraham was declare rightious by his Faith. Modern Carnal 'Israel' does not fall under this classification. Carnal Israel could never come into The Land in unbelief. Abraham also knew that 'the land' that he was walking on was not his land, it belonged to God and Abraham was only passing through to a better land, Beulah Land.

    A witnesses for what? How to establish a blood thirsty carnal aparthide nation? Israeli humanism is not a witness of God, but of Babylon.

    You over look the fact that the Bible was not written to you, it was written to 'them'..... them of the first century generation. It was to them that the end of the Ages had come. It was the first century general that saw The Death and Sheol thrown in the Lake of Fire. The 'Time of The End' was their time period, not ours or our future. It was The End of The Mosaic Age.... not an ending of some age to come. Do you call it the 'church age' or the 'christian age'. The New Covenant Age has no end. Ram is not a 'christian' and he even understands that 'the bible' was written to and for another people and another age. We have the bible now for our learning and understanding..... so learn and understand....
    Thank you Les for your contribution.

    I am aware that the message was "given to them" and I am also aware when a message has a continuation and applies to following generations. Please do not disparage me, we should all be learning and understanding God's word on this Forum. I am giving everyone the benefit of my studies as much as I get the benefit from the contributions of others. I do not have such a closed mind as some would like to make out that I have.

    I think in connection with the blessing and cursings that befell Israel and the blessings and cursings that befell them that blessed and cursed Israel, I would ask you to remind yourself of the story of Balaam and Balak in Numbers 24. I do not want to be accused of taking Numbers 24:9 out of context which again says the phrase; "Blessed is he that blesseth thee, and cursed is he that curseth thee".

    Of course the outworking of that statement would have been directly attibutable to Abraham, but also a continuation to include his seed or dscendants ought not to be dismissed outright, especially when you condsider what is written elsewhere concerning Israel.

    Please can you tell me the time period for Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    These are words of Jesus. If you you see the application of the first part of this prohecy happening in AD70 then what follows is that Jerusalem is trodden down until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Please, when is or was the times of the Gentiles fulfilled because this must happen after AD70? Please what happens to Israel after they have been led away captive into all nations? What is God's plan for the world and for Israel after AD70? Maybe I have missed something, so you answers might be helpful.

    All the best,

    David

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    20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Luke 21
    21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

    22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

    23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

    24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

    25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;



    David M
    I think in connection with the blessing and cursings that befell Israel and the blessings and cursings that befell them that blessed and cursed Israel, I would ask you to remind yourself of the story of Balaam and Balak in Numbers 24. I do not want to be accused of taking Numbers 24:9 out of context which again says the phrase; "Blessed is he that blesseth thee, and cursed is he that curseth thee".

    Of course the outworking of that statement would have been directly attibutable to Abraham, but also a continuation to include his seed or dscendants ought not to be dismissed outright, especially when you condsider what is written elsewhere concerning Israel.
    You do understand that the word 'Israel' as multiple meanings..... right? Father Israel/Jacob....Israel as a 'whole house'..... Israel as only the Northen House (which by the way when 'Israel' is used by many or the Prophets it ONLY means the Northern Kingdom/House......Israel as the Souther Kingdom/House Israel with a division of the Sons of Darkness and Sons of Light.....The 'called out ones'/The Assembly/The Church (made up for several years of ONLY Jewish Israelites) and then brought into the 'church' many more 'called out ones' who were from the Desporia of The House of Israel/Ephraim.etc...etc....

    I want to point out to you that Jewish Israel could NEVER come into the New Covenant BY Itself. The Gentiles/Nations of the Northern House of Israel also had to come into Covenant with YHWH/Jesus AT THE SAME TIME in order for the New Covenant to have its Full Effect of Blessings/Marriage. The is the Whole House of Israel, the Tabernacle of David made up of the Souther tribe of Jews/Ben and the Northern tribes of the Tend 'lost' tribes to become ONE Nation, One Body..... Israel The Church of Jesus Christ.
    Galations states with NO Misunderstanding that the Seed of Abraham IS Christ. And with that known then those who make up The Body of Christ ARE Abrahams Seed. The Apostle Paul makes this very very clear. The Church IS Israel (Sons of God).


    Please can you tell me the time period for Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    These are words of Jesus. If you you see the application of the first part of this prohecy happening in AD70 then what follows is that Jerusalem is trodden down until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Please, when is or was the times of the Gentiles fulfilled because this must happen after AD70? Please what happens to Israel after they have been led away captive into all nations? What is God's plan for the world and for Israel after AD70? Maybe I have missed something, so you answers might be helpful.

    All the best,

    David
    These be the days of Vengeance...... From Luke 21:20 to Luke 21:25 does not expand out for more than 2,000 years (and counting). All of this happened during the Jewish Wars. You are assuming about 'the Gentiles', the Nations, the tribes.

    Strong's H1471 - gowy גּוֹי
    Transliteration
    gowy
    Pronunciation

    gō'ē (Key)


    Parts of Speech
    masculine noun, proper masculine noun

    Root Word (Etymology)

    Apparently from the same root as גֵּוָה (H1465)

    TWOT Reference
    326e

    Outline of Biblical Usage n m
    1) nation, people

    a) nation, people

    1) usually of non-Hebrew people

    2) of descendants of Abraham

    3) of Israel

    b) of swarm of locusts, other animals (fig.)


    The Times of The Gentiles/Nations/Tribes Fulfilled(Northern House/ which IS called Israel in most of the Bible or Ephraim). The Times of their Desporia Fulfilled. Jewish Israel (Southern Tribes) Could Never Never come into the New Covenant by themselves. The Covenantal Promises that were made to The Fathers (Redemption/Resurrection/Salvvation), were to be bestowed on all of The Elect Israel (not the sons of Darthness within all Israel).

    'When was 'the times of the Gentiles' fulfilled? I would say in AD73, when Masada.The Age of The Death was over at that time. The terra firma Jerusalem has no meaning in the New Covenant Age. It is the Jerusalem that came down from above that only has meaning.
    Last edited by Brother Les; 04-18-2012 at 08:38 AM.
    Brother Les

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Les View Post
    'When was 'the times of the Gentiles' fulfilled? I would say in AD73, when Masada.The Age of The Death was over at that time. The terra firma Jerusalem has no meaning in the New Covenant Age. It is the Jerusalem that came down from above that only has meaning.
    Hello Les
    Thank you for your detailed reply. It is useful knowledge that you have given and explains both natural and spiritual Israel and the time of the divided kingdom very well. I do understand these things, and it is good to be reminded of them. I have not quoted the whole of your text, just the part I disagree with. I do not agree that the prophecy was fulfilled in AD73. AD73 was part of the time when the Jews were scattered throughout all the nations following the destruction of Jerusalem.

    Jerusalem has been trodden down since that time for centuries. The land and Jersualem was run down and not really used until the Jews returned and the Nation of Israel was recognized in 1948. Only once the Jews developed the land and restored Jerusalem, the Palestians took an interest and want to share in the profits and resource and claim Jerusalem as their own. If the Palestinians had their way, they would destroy Israel into oblivion as Iran have openly declared.

    It was the 6-day war of 1967 when Jerusalem came totally under the control of the Jews for the first time. This was a very important event. Jerusalem will be the place from where Jesus will rule when he returns. Jerusalem is still central to God's plan dealing with His chosen race and the nations surrounding Israel. Secular Israel has an important part to play. I understand that believers belong to the spiritual house of Israel.

    I believe Zechariah 12 is still future. Jerusalem remains the burdensome stone it is, and we know control of Jerusalem is is the main controversy between the Palestinians and the Jews. We have yet to see God coming to defend Israel when all the nations are gathered around it to do battle. God did not save Israel in AD70, so the prophecy of Zechariah remains future.

    What is your understanding of Zechariah 12 and its fulfillment?

    Thanks for chatting.

    David

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