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  1. #41
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    Thank you for your reply Richard. I think we have hammered each other enough on this prophecy. I should have made the following into a question?

    I am not ignorant of what you wrote and it is not that the phrase "in a moment in one day" I am worried about; it is similar in meaning to suddenly or quickly. What you are not taking into account are the words preceding this phrase which are; "But these two things shall come to thee". I will leave you to find out what the two things refer to. They are not to do with the physical destruction of the city.
    I wondered if you looked this up to find out. What two things came suddenly? It is not a trick question, I want to know in the context of this passage in Isaiah 47:9 what "these two things " refer to. I agree they came suddenly.

    With the exception of your claim that the Bible states the city of Babylon (its buildings) would be destroyed, we both know the words suddenly, violent and desolation are used to describe other events which took place.

    After your answer, we can move on.

    David

  2. #42
    Hi David,

    I still hope each Christian should discover the "secret" of mystery Babylonian. -- What is a card trick except a "mystery". It's not magic, it doesn't defy the laws of the universe, and anyone can do it if they simply know the secret:


    Quote Originally Posted by BibleScribe View Post

    I think most people still miss the significance of the Babylonian Empire. They seem to think of it as an "empire", rather than a model which ALL subsequent governments have conformed to, -- the METROPOLIS model (the Image of Metals).


    The parallel to this might be the Roman Representative Republic. This too was never replaced because it was never conquered (it simply dissolved), but the Roman Empire is DEAD. So we now find the subsequent "divided" empire of Clay as fulfilled by the three-superpowers, all of which use the REPUBLIC model (Iron in the Feet of Clay). -- "... and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands ...".

    So the next aspect is whether Daniel 2:45 declares FIVE world empires (4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE) for which Chapter 7 defines the "divided" participants (three-superpowers and the U.N.).


    And Scripture MUST be supported by History, as I believe it is.



    Rev. 1
    7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. ..



    As such, this global event shall come suddenly:


    Isaiah 47
    9 But these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments.
    ...
    11 Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know.
    ...
    14Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.

    15Thus shall they be unto thee with whom thou hast laboured, even thy merchants, from thy youth: they shall wander every one to his quarter; none shall save thee.



    ... and what is the return of Christ except as a judgement of fire.

    With Best Regards,
    BibleScribe

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by BibleScribe View Post
    Rev. 1
    7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. ..



    As such, this global event shall come suddenly:
    This is the most common errors of interpretation amongst Futurists. The Bible makes no references to the earth as a "globe." When the NT speaks of "earth" it means "land" as in "land of Israel" and/or the surrounding "world" of the Roman Empire.

    This has been proven beyond all doubt in many threads on this forum. We've gone over and over the meaning of "earth" (Hb: eretz, Gk: ge) on this forum. Here is a good summary of the facts as presented in Scripture concerning the meaning of all forms of "world" which shows 1) that "world" does not mean "the globe of planet earth" and 2) the Gospel was preached in all the world prior to 70 AD (from Post #15 in the thread called A Witness to ALL NATIONS (pas ethnos)):

    1. Prophecy: Matthew 24:14 – And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world [oikumene] for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
      Fulfillment:
      Romans 10:15-18 – And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world [oikumene].
    2. Prophecy: Mark 16:15 – And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world [kosmos], and preach the gospel to every creature.
      Fulfillment:
      Colossians 1:5-6 – For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world [kosmos]; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
    3. Prophecy: Mark 16:15 – And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature [ktisis].
      Fulfillment:
      Colossians 1:23 – If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature [ktisis] which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
    4. Prophecies: Matthew 28:19 – Go ye therefore, and teach all nations [ethnos], baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Mark 13:10 – And the gospel must first be published among all nations [ethnos].
      Fulfillment:
      Romans 16:25-26 – Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations [ethnos] for the obedience of faith:
    5. Prophecy: Acts 1:8 – But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth [ge].
      Fulfillment:
      Romans 10:15-18 – And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth [ge], and their words unto the ends of the world.
    6. Prophecy: Isaiah 52:14-15 – As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: 15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
      Fulfillment:
      Romans 15:19-21 – Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. 20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation: 21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

    The implications are clear. Not one of these passages suggests the "world" refers to the globe of planet earth.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Thank you for your reply Richard. I think we have hammered each other enough on this prophecy. I should have made the following into a question?

    I am not ignorant of what you wrote and it is not that the phrase "in a moment in one day" I am worried about; it is similar in meaning to suddenly or quickly. What you are not taking into account are the words preceding this phrase which are; "But these two things shall come to thee". I will leave you to find out what the two things refer to. They are not to do with the physical destruction of the city.
    I wondered if you looked this up to find out. What two things came suddenly? It is not a trick question, I want to know in the context of this passage in Isaiah 47:9 what "these two things " refer to. I agree they came suddenly.

    With the exception of your claim that the Bible states the city of Babylon (its buildings) would be destroyed, we both know the words suddenly, violent and desolation are used to describe other events which took place.

    After your answer, we can move on.

    David
    Hi David,

    Let's take a look at that passage in context:
    Isaiah 47:9 But these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments. 10 For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me. 11 Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know. 12 Stand now with thine enchantments, and with the multitude of thy sorceries, wherein thou hast laboured from thy youth; if so be thou shalt be able to profit, if so be thou mayest prevail. 13 Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee. 14 Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it. 15 Thus shall they be unto thee with whom thou hast laboured, even thy merchants, from thy youth: they shall wander every one to his quarter; none shall save thee.
    I grant that you could interpret "widowhood" as the loss of the "husband" which in this context could be the king of Babylon who was overthrown by Cyrus. But the passage also speaks of "desolation" that would come "suddenly" - and when we compare this with the other prophecies against Babylon, we see that it is described as a very violent event:
    Isaiah 13:15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. 16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished. 17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it. 18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children. 19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
    Folks who try to harmonize all these verses with history follow the same path as you and try to see partial fulfillments scattered in bits and pieces here and there throughout a thousand years of history. If this is what God intended, he was singularly inept in expressing himself. And worse, if the prophecy is that vague, then how can it serve as proof of anything?

    So there's really no need to grind this prophecy into the ground. If it was fulfilled historically, it seems to me that God made it sufficiently vague as to prohibit its use as "proof" of anything. So the point is moot.

    My real interest is your assertion that you believe the Bible BECAUSE of prophecy. I don't think that is true. I think you began with a faith in the Bible, and then accepted anything that confirmed that faith and rejected anything that challenged it. You have not yet shown any verifiable prophecy that is sufficiently clear and lucid and verifiable to serve as "proof" for anyone except those who want to believe.

    I would be very interested in your response to a question I have asked more than once: If you were a Muslim and "rationalized" every problem in the Koran, how would you free yourself from being trapped in that false religion?

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  5. #45
    Taken from Strong's Greek Concordance. The meaning of 'oikoumene, ge, and kosmos' in scripture.

    3625. oikoumené


    oikoumené: the inhabited earth
    Original Word: οἰκουμένη, ης, ἡ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
    Transliteration: oikoumené
    Phonetic Spelling: (oy-kou-men'-ay)
    Short Definition: the inhabited (Roman) world
    Definition: (properly: the land that is being inhabited, the land in a state of habitation), the inhabited world, that is, the Roman world, for all outside it was regarded as of no account.


    3625 oikouménē (from 3611 /oikéō, "to inhabit, dwell") – the inhabited earth, i.e. all people living on the inhabited globe.

    [3625 (oikouménē) is "the land that is being inhabited, the land in a state of habitation, the inhabited world, that is, the Roman world (orbis terrarum), for all outside it was regarded as of no account" (Souter).

    3625 (oikouménē) literally means "the inhabited (land)." It was "originally used by the Greeks to denote the land inhabited by themselves, in contrast with barbarian countries; afterward, when the Greeks became subject to the Romans, 'the entire Roman world;' still later, for 'the whole inhabited world' " (WS, 140,141).]


    2889. kosmos

    Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
    Transliteration: kosmos
    Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
    Short Definition: the world, universe
    Definition: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.

    kósmos (literally, "something ordered") – properly, an "ordered system" (like the universe, creation); the world.


    1093. gé

    Original Word: γῆ, γῆς, ἡ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
    Transliteration: gé
    Phonetic Spelling: (ghay)
    Short Definition: the earth, soil, land
    Definition: the earth, soil, land, region, country, inhabitants of a region.

    1093 gḗ – properly, the physical earth; (figuratively) the "arena" we live in which operates in space and time which God uses to prepare us for eternity.

    The physical earth (1093 /gḗ) is the temporary, probationary place to live out moral preferences "through the body," i.e. as free moral agents (cf. 2 Cor 5:1-10). In this way, God makes an eternal record of everything we do on the earth. Through faith, each scene of life becomes equally, eternally significant (cf. Mt 13:31,32,17:20; cf. also Lk 16:10; Lk 17:6; 2 Pet 1:1).

    [The OT Hebrew term, 776 /asitía ("earth"), also refers to the physical earth as "God's arena" – "the physical theater" in which our eternal destiny freely plays out.]

    Twospirits
    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    ...
    Not one of these passages suggests the "world" refers to the globe of planet earth.

    Hey RAM, (Richard),

    Rev. 1
    7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. ..


    ... "every" ... "all" ... "earth"...



    Yeah, I see how some might think this means: ...~ those~ ... ~of~ ... ~region~ ...




    Some might also want to consider the implication of: ... "wail" ... .


    With Best Regards,
    BibleScribe

  7. #47
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    [I would be very interested in your response to a question I have asked more than once: If you were a Muslim and "rationalized" every problem in the Koran, how would you free yourself from being trapped in that false religion?

    All the best,

    Richard[/QUOTE]

    Hello Richard

    It is a very hypothetical question and difficult to answer. I can see how peer pressure and outside influences can shape a person into a set belief. I thank God that I was not trapped in that way and have had freedom to chose and I was not brainwashed at a very early age. I know it is not easy for someone to be independent thinkers and break free. There comes a time in most people's lives when they have to make their own choices; and very difficult choices too. That might not have always been the case, and I can see that people could easily become trapped by their culture.


    I should think most Muslims have access to the Bible at sometime in their life. When they are of an age to understand and reason, they must take their own steps to find out what both the Bible and the Quran teach and make up their own mind. It is not easy and can take a long time, and there are pressures put on them to conform. Jesus knew his message would be divisive and would cause splits between families. It is one thing for a person to choose which way they want to go and it is another for parents and teachers to force young children into their own religion. Hence the warning and the consequences to those who would "offend" young children. It is a sober warning to us to think about what we teach.

    I am not forcing my beliefs on anyone and I do not expect anyone to believe what I say without reading the Bible and making up their own mind. Anyone who believes in God and His Son and knows of God's promises, has a responsibility to pass the message on.

    OK. I am finished now with this thread.

    All the best for the next round in a new thread.

    David

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twospirits View Post
    Taken from Strong's Greek Concordance. The meaning of 'oikoumene, ge, and kosmos' in scripture.

    3625. oikoumené


    oikoumené: the inhabited earth
    Original Word: οἰκουμένη, ης, ἡ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
    Transliteration: oikoumené
    Phonetic Spelling: (oy-kou-men'-ay)
    Short Definition: the inhabited (Roman) world
    Definition: (properly: the land that is being inhabited, the land in a state of habitation), the inhabited world, that is, the Roman world, for all outside it was regarded as of no account.


    3625 oikouménē (from 3611 /oikéō, "to inhabit, dwell") – the inhabited earth, i.e. all people living on the inhabited globe.

    [3625 (oikouménē) is "the land that is being inhabited, the land in a state of habitation, the inhabited world, that is, the Roman world (orbis terrarum), for all outside it was regarded as of no account" (Souter).

    3625 (oikouménē) literally means "the inhabited (land)." It was "originally used by the Greeks to denote the land inhabited by themselves, in contrast with barbarian countries; afterward, when the Greeks became subject to the Romans, 'the entire Roman world;' still later, for 'the whole inhabited world' " (WS, 140,141).]


    2889. kosmos

    Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
    Transliteration: kosmos
    Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
    Short Definition: the world, universe
    Definition: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.

    kósmos (literally, "something ordered") – properly, an "ordered system" (like the universe, creation); the world.


    1093. gé

    Original Word: γῆ, γῆς, ἡ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
    Transliteration: gé
    Phonetic Spelling: (ghay)
    Short Definition: the earth, soil, land
    Definition: the earth, soil, land, region, country, inhabitants of a region.

    1093 gḗ – properly, the physical earth; (figuratively) the "arena" we live in which operates in space and time which God uses to prepare us for eternity.

    The physical earth (1093 /gḗ) is the temporary, probationary place to live out moral preferences "through the body," i.e. as free moral agents (cf. 2 Cor 5:1-10). In this way, God makes an eternal record of everything we do on the earth. Through faith, each scene of life becomes equally, eternally significant (cf. Mt 13:31,32,17:20; cf. also Lk 16:10; Lk 17:6; 2 Pet 1:1).

    [The OT Hebrew term, 776 /asitía ("earth"), also refers to the physical earth as "God's arena" – "the physical theater" in which our eternal destiny freely plays out.]

    Twospirits
    Hey there TS,

    Why did you post all those definitions? The meaning of words depends on the context in which they are found. I posted all those words in context and showed they did not, and indeed could not, refer to the globe of planet earth.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by BibleScribe View Post
    Hey RAM, (Richard),

    Rev. 1
    7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. ..


    ... "every" ... "all" ... "earth"...



    Yeah, I see how some might think this means: ...~ those~ ... ~of~ ... ~region~ ...


    Some might also want to consider the implication of: ... "wail" ... .


    With Best Regards,
    BibleScribe


    Yeah, I know how challenging it can be to understand how it could be possible that "every" and "all" refers to "every and all" in Israel.

    Bible study is more difficult than rocket science!
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    I would be very interested in your response to a question I have asked more than once: If you were a Muslim and "rationalized" every problem in the Koran, how would you free yourself from being trapped in that false religion?

    All the best,

    Richard
    Hello Richard

    It is a very hypothetical question and difficult to answer. I can see how peer pressure and outside influences can shape a person into a set belief. I thank God that I was not trapped in that way and have had freedom to chose and I was not brainwashed at a very early age. I know it is not easy for someone to be independent thinkers and break free. There comes a time in most people's lives when they have to make their own choices; and very difficult choices too. That might not have always been the case, and I can see that people could easily become trapped by their culture.


    I should think most Muslims have access to the Bible at sometime in their life. When they are of an age to understand and reason, they must take their own steps to find out what both the Bible and the Quran teach and make up their own mind. It is not easy and can take a long time, and there are pressures put on them to conform. Jesus knew his message would be divisive and would cause splits between families. It is one thing for a person to choose which way they want to go and it is another for parents and teachers to force young children into their own religion. Hence the warning and the consequences to those who would "offend" young children. It is a sober warning to us to think about what we teach.

    I am not forcing my beliefs on anyone and I do not expect anyone to believe what I say without reading the Bible and making up their own mind. Anyone who believes in God and His Son and knows of God's promises, has a responsibility to pass the message on.

    OK. I am finished now with this thread.

    All the best for the next round in a new thread.

    David
    Hi David,

    I think you missed my point. I was specifically challenging your methodology that is biased towards your prefered Holy Book. If a Muslim took the same approach as you, then they could never free themselves from the Koran.

    So my question is this: Given that your methodology would leave a Muslim trapped in Islam, how is it that you don't see that you could be trapping yourself in a false belief in the Bible?

    Do you understand the symmetry of the two situations?

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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