Does Fulfilled Prophecy Prove the Bible?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hey RAM, (Richard),

I gotta laugh once again, because if the USA is NOT mentioned in the Bible, then I'd better tear entire chapters from my pages.


With Best Regards,
BibleScribe

Are you talking about pages of a book you wrote?

PS For a quick reference, all one has to do is perceive that the Psalms (19th Book of the Bible) is prophetic for the 1900s, with the Chapters for the years, -- such that Psalms 44 (Book 19, Chapter 44) prophecies the Holocaust (1944). And if you considered Psalms 45, you should NOT fine the I/me/us/we of the Jewish audience for this premise, but instead find a "You". And where where verse 4 talks of learning "dread deeds" (plural)one could consider history:


1. Uranium & Plutonium

2. Gun-Assembled & Implosion

3. Little Boy & Fat Man


And what good is "dread" until they become a "deed":

4. Hiroshima & Nagasaki


... all plural ("deeds").

As I mentioned in a previous response, I've long been familiar with the "Prophecy in the Psalms" idea put forth by J. R. Church and am impressed by its failure rather than its success. Case in point, folks have been using it to predict the Rapture every year for decades and they have always been wrong. It's obviously worthless as a predictor of anything.

[Lotus Feet]

Hey there BS,

If you are correct, and Isaiah was talking about "mystery Babylon" without giving us the common courtesy of telling us, then I agree that the prophecy may not have failed. But your cure is just as bad as the illness - both are fatal to the proposition that prophecy proves the Bible. If the "prophecies" are so obscure as to leave us with no certain knowledge of the identity of the object of the prophecy, then they are utterly useless for "proving" anything about the Bible!

Checkmate.

The books were sealed until the end times for divine purpose.

Daniel 12

The End Times


9 He replied, 'Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

11 'From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

13 'As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.'

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...20&version=NIV

How are people purified? Through healing mind, body and soul.

Daniel was also given a sign in those texts to do with the Malachi prophecies and the sun of righteousness that rises with healing in its wings. In some translations it is rays.

Dan 12:13 also mentions the words 'rise' and that is also to do with the name of the prophet mentioned in the Torah. Jesus did not have that name that had been specified for the one. Daniel also gives a timeline for the last days of the end times. In Judaism a day can be a month or a year. In the context of Dan 12 it relates to years.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The books were sealed until the end times for divine purpose.

Daniel 12

The End Times


9 He replied, 'Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

11 'From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

13 'As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.'

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel 12 &version=NIV

Good morning Lotus Feet,

You are correct, the book was sealed till the time of the end, which we know was the first century. How do we know that? Very simple! All we need to do is ask why prophetic books were or were not sealed.

Dan was SEALED because the time of fulfillment was NOT NEAR.
Rev was NOT SEALED because the time of fulfillment was NEAR.

If Revelation was not fufilled in the first century then it would have been sealed just like Daniel. The two prophecies are deeply connected and are jointly fulfilled at the same time so you can't have one sealed and one unsealed at the same time.

Daniel was unsealed in the first century at the time of its fulfillment. This is confirmed by the many verses that plainly state that the "end times" and "last days" happened in the first century.

[Lotus Feet]

Good morning Lotus Feet,

You are correct, the book was sealed till the time of the end, which we know was the first century. How do we know that? Very simple! All we need to do is ask why prophetic books were or were not sealed.

Dan was SEALED because the time of fulfillment was NOT NEAR.
Rev was NOT SEALED because the time of fulfillment was NEAR.

If Revelation was not fufilled in the first century then it would have been sealed just like Daniel. The two prophecies are deeply connected and are jointly fulfilled at the same time so you can't have one sealed and one unsealed at the same time.

Daniel was unsealed in the first century at the time of its fulfillment. This is confirmed by the many verses that plainly state that the "end times" and "last days" happened in the first century.

It was all sealed until the streams of water came after 9/11 happened. 9+11 = 20 is also the number of judgement.

Jesus gave many accurate predictions about what would happen in the last days of the end times and he told you that the angels would be the harvesters. He also told his followers that 'the one' must share their testimony with the nations then the end will come.

The end to the Jewish people is the complete defeat of the enemies of Israel. When people do not stand against Israel anymore. Micah 4 also told you that about the LORD's day when they do not train for war anymore. Prophet Isaiah said the same.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Good morning Lotus Feet,

You are correct, the book was sealed till the time of the end, which we know was the first century. How do we know that? Very simple! All we need to do is ask why prophetic books were or were not sealed.

Dan was SEALED because the time of fulfillment was NOT NEAR.
Rev was NOT SEALED because the time of fulfillment was NEAR.

If Revelation was not fufilled in the first century then it would have been sealed just like Daniel. The two prophecies are deeply connected and are jointly fulfilled at the same time so you can't have one sealed and one unsealed at the same time.

Daniel was unsealed in the first century at the time of its fulfillment. This is confirmed by the many verses that plainly state that the "end times" and "last days" happened in the first century.

It was all sealed until the streams of water came after 9/11 happened. 9+11 = 20 is also the number of judgement.

Jesus gave many accurate predictions about what would happen in the last days of the end times and he told you that the angels would be the harvesters. He also told his followers that 'the one' must share their testimony with the nations then the end will come.

The end to the Jewish people is the complete defeat of the enemies of Israel. When people do not stand against Israel anymore. Micah 4 also told you that about the LORD's day when they do not train for war anymore. Prophet Isaiah said the same.

So you can't respond intelligently to the evidence I gave? Pity ...

[BibleScribe]

Are you talking about pages of a book you wrote?

...folks have been using it to predict the Rapture every year for decades and they have always been wrong. ...

Hi RAM, (Richard),

LOL, -- Have you considered using different sources?


Take your example regarding the rapture. Are you aware that any student of prophecy worth his weight would know the those who are alive and remain cannot proceed until after the resurrection of the dead? And are you aware that the resurrection of the martyred doesn't occur until the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom, -- and it's the FIRST resurrection?

So exactly how can there be a resurrection of the dead during the tribulation (pre-, mid-, post-), when THAT would be the "FIRST"?!?!?

Are there two FIRSTs? Did God lose track of His numbers? And who's the ill advised individual who would give credence to someone who can't get the easy stuff? (That might be YOU! -- LOL)

Yeah, it's an easy mistake to believe false church doctrines, so I really don't fault you, but guys our age should know better than to fall for these simple mistakes.


Your Friend,
BibleScribe

[David M]

Hello Richard
I did reply to this prophecy concerning Babylon in another thread but with the volume of posts, I guess it has dropped off your radar.

Before I comment, I wish to repeat a suggestion made elsewhere. Can you please make 'Bible Study' a category on its own instead of a sub-category of Christianity. Either move the sub-category that is there or start a new one with a different title. We should use this to concentrate our study on one passage/verse at a time to explore all possible meanings in order to harmonize scripture where we can. This will stop us going down to many side-trails (hopefully).


Now to the prophecy concerning Babylon:

I think you are inferring from the text that Babylon should have been destroyed suddenly/violently in the same manner as Sodom and Gomorrah i.e by volcanic erruption or similar. It is an assumption to say Babylon should have been destroyed in the same manner; it was not. In fact, the text does not say Babylon was destroyed in the same manner. What the text is talking about is the demise of Babylon, similar to the demise of Sodom and Gomorrah; not about the way those cities were destroyed. All these cities lost their prestige. They could no longer be looked on as great cities. Lots of violent killing took place in the fall of Babylon, but this was not the same manner in which the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. Taken in the correct context, the prophecy about Babylon is true.

For centuries after the fall from power and the great city that Babylon was, it sank into oblivion, being covered by sand for centuries. The last part of the verse in which it says; no tent would be pitched there was true. Buried under sand, the city of Babylon was lost. The hanging gardens of Babylon, described now as one of the wonders of the world, had been lost, and for a long time, Babylon was considered a Bible myth. Not until the city was found and it was uncovered, was the Bible was proved correct.

In recent times, it was found that Sadam Hussain was in the process of restoring the old city of Babylon and he was spending vast sums of money to restore the city, while keeping his own people poor. He wanted to make the old city of Babylon the crown of Iraq's empire, but an end was made of his plans at the time of his own violent death. God decreed that the city of Babylon would never be the great city it was, proving the Bible correct again.

Given our opposing understanding of this prophecy, it is for others to make up their mind about this the prophecy in Isaiah 13:15-20. More input from others concerning this one prophecy is welcomed.


On the question of finding a failed prophecy to discredit the Bible, we should not jump to conclusions. Where reasonable opinions are put forward, then before rejecting any opinion, the question should be asked; does this opinion harmonize with the whole of scripture? If in any doubt, it is better to have an open mind and hold a prophecy in abeyance until the correct interpretation is found. It is folly to jump to a conclusion before exploring all the facts. (Proverbs 18:3)


David

[BibleScribe]

...
Now to the prophecy concerning Babylon:
...

Hi David,

I think most people still miss the significance of the Babylonian Empire. They seem to think of it as an "empire", rather than a model which ALL subsequent governments have conformed to, -- the METROPOLIS model (the Image of Metals).


The parallel to this might be the Roman Representative Republic. This too was never replaced because it was never conquered (it simply dissolved), but the Roman Empire is DEAD. So we now find the subsequent "divided" empire of Clay as fulfilled by the three-superpowers, all of which use the REPUBLIC model (Iron in the Feet of Clay). -- "... and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands ...".

So the next aspect is whether Daniel 2:45 declares FIVE world empires (4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE) for which Chapter 7 defines the "divided" participants (three-superpowers and the U.N.).


And Scripture MUST be supported by History, as I believe it is.


Your Friend,
BibleScribe

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hello Richard
I did reply to this prophecy concerning Babylon in another thread but with the volume of posts, I guess it has dropped off your radar.

Yes, I guess I did overlook it. Sorry!

Before I comment, I wish to repeat a suggestion made elsewhere. Can you please make 'Bible Study' a category on its own instead of a sub-category of Christianity. Either move the sub-category that is there or start a new one with a different title. We should use this to concentrate our study on one passage/verse at a time to explore all possible meanings in order to harmonize scripture where we can. This will stop us going down to many side-trails (hopefully).

The categories are meant to be hierarchial, and it makes sense that "Bible Studies" should go under Christianity. Is there a reason you don't like posting in that subcategory? It shows up in the list of current posts like any other.

Now to the prophecy concerning Babylon:

I think you are inferring from the text that Babylon should have been destroyed suddenly/violently in the same manner as Sodom and Gomorrah i.e by volcanic erruption or similar. It is an assumption to say Babylon should have been destroyed in the same manner; it was not. In fact, the text does not say Babylon was destroyed in the same manner. What the text is talking about is the demise of Babylon, similar to the demise of Sodom and Gomorrah; not about the way those cities were destroyed. All these cities lost their prestige. They could no longer be looked on as great cities. Lots of violent killing took place in the fall of Babylon, but this was not the same manner in which the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. Taken in the correct context, the prophecy about Babylon is true.

For centuries after the fall from power and the great city that Babylon was, it sank into oblivion, being covered by sand for centuries. The last part of the verse in which it says; no tent would be pitched there was true. Buried under sand, the city of Babylon was lost. The hanging gardens of Babylon, described now as one of the wonders of the world, had been lost, and for a long time, Babylon was considered a Bible myth. Not until the city was found and it was uncovered, was the Bible was proved correct.

The prophecy says a lot more than you suggest. It says that "every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword" (Isa 13:15) and that the Medes would "dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children" (Isa 13:18). There is no record of anything like that happening. On the contrary, Cyrus took the city without much, if any, battle (depending on what account you believe). But in no case was there a mass slaughter that Isaiah predicted. Likewise, there was no sudden destruction like that predicted in Isaiah 47:

Isaiah 47:9 But these two things shall come to thee [Babylon] in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments. 10 For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me. 11 Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know.

Here we have an explicit prediction of desolation that would come upon Babylon "suddenly" and "in a moment in one day." This coheres perfectly with the other prediction that said the destruction of Babylon would be "as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah" (Isa 13:19).

If we know anything about the Bible and history, we know that the Biblical prophecies against Babylon utterly failed to unfold in the way described.

In recent times, it was found that Sadam Hussain was in the process of restoring the old city of Babylon and he was spending vast sums of money to restore the city, while keeping his own people poor. He wanted to make the old city of Babylon the crown of Iraq's empire, but an end was made of his plans at the time of his own violent death. God decreed that the city of Babylon would never be the great city it was, proving the Bible correct again.

Actually, the fact that Babylon is currently inhabited (the Babylon province in which it sits has over a million inhabitants!) directly contradicts the prophecy, and so rather than "proving the Bible correct" it is incontrovertible proof that the Bible erred on this point.

I am always amazed how freely people claim that the Bible has been "proved correct" by the very facts that prove it false! If this is what faith does to the human mind, it is the most pernicious influence that has ever afflicted humanity!

On the question of finding a failed prophecy to discredit the Bible, we should not jump to conclusions. Where reasonable opinions are put forward, then before rejecting any opinion, the question should be asked; does this opinion harmonize with the whole of scripture? If in any doubt, it is better to have an open mind and hold a prophecy in abeyance until the correct interpretation is found. It is folly to jump to a conclusion before exploring all the facts. (Proverbs 18:3)

No one is "jumping to conclusions." We are standing on rock-solid facts, comparing what the Bible states with what we see in history and objectively verifiable facts, such as the million people that currently live in the region that once was Babylon.

I started this thread because you boldly proclaimed that prophecy proves the Bible. Your statement is not supported by the facts. If you are willing to accept the Bible because you thought it was proven by the facts, must you not reject it now that it has been proven false?

All the best,

Richard

[David M]

Hello Richard

The categories are meant to be hierarchial, and it makes sense that "Bible Studies" should go under Christianity. Is there a reason you don't like posting in that subcategory? It shows up in the list of current posts like any other.

I only make the suggest because Jews and Muslims and others do not identify themselves with Christianity. Bible study is open to everyone, not Christians per se. If any one else reading this has any positive suggestions, please comment; it does not matter if I am the only one making this suggestion.

The prophecy says a lot more than you suggest.

On this I would agree. This is an example of a prophecy that needs a full study and I am prepared to learn from the exercise. You have brought in more passages, which is OK as these need to be included. I was commenting on Isaiah 47:9 and when I read the whole passage beginning at verse one, I realize we have to take into account the style of writing; maybe you would like to comment on your findings in this respect.

It says that "every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword" (Isa 13:15) and that the Medes would "dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children" (Isa 13:18). There is no record of anything like that happening. On the contrary, Cyrus took the city without much, if any, battle (depending on what account you believe). But in no case was there a mass slaughter that Isaiah predicted.

I am not an historian and therefore all the different accounts will have to be considered. If Cyrus entered the city without a big battle, good, it does not mean he entered without shedding any blood. I will have to look at this some more and read any accounts put forward. You are now introducing Isaiah13 and I will look at this later. The Medes and Persians would have had a reputation and they would probably as said; "not spare the children" if resisted. What Cyrus did in uniting peoples was quite unusual, but that is another story.

Likewise, there was no sudden destruction like that predicted in Isaiah 47:

Isaiah 47:9 But these two things shall come to thee [Babylon] in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments. 10 For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me. 11 Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know.

Here we have an explicit prediction of desolation that would come upon Babylon "suddenly" and "in a moment in one day." This coheres perfectly with the other prediction that said the destruction of Babylon would be "as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah" (Isa 13:19)..

This phrase; "in a moment in one day" should not be taken literally. We have to consider the style of the language used. Starting at the beginning in verse 1 we find this passage is addressed to; virgin daughter of Babylon. Babylon is being compared to a young virgin and God in v2 says; make bare thy leg. In verse 3 God says; Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: Once we recognize the poetic language used to describe Babylon and events, the phrase; "in a moment in one day" has to be taken in its proper context. Relatively speaking the demise of Babylon occured quite quickly. The fact that Cyrus entered the city without much resistance would support this fact.

If we know anything about the Bible and history, we know that the Biblical prophecies against Babylon utterly failed to unfold in the way described.

No they did not! You have not acknowledged that Babylon fell from it prestigious place it had in the kingdoms of men and has never recovered.

Actually, the fact that Babylon is currently inhabited (the Babylon province in which it sits has over a million inhabitants!) directly contradicts the prophecy, and so rather than "proving the Bible correct" it is incontrovertible proof that the Bible erred on this point.

The fact that is has been uncovered proves the myth that it was considered by Bible skeptics. The fact that a million poor people are living in it proximity means nothing. I did not know that Sadam Hussain was attempting to restore Babylon unitl a couple of years ago. Babylon is as good as forgotten to the remainder of the world.

I am always amazed how freely people claim that the Bible has been "proved correct" by the very facts that prove it false! If this is what faith does to the human mind, it is the most pernicious influence that has ever afflicted humanity!

I am amazed how freely people claim the Bible has "proved incorrect" by the very facts that prove it true! The most pernicious influence that is afflicting mankind is the foolishenss of men in rejecting God's word without truly disecerning its message; hence Proverbs 18:3

No one is "jumping to conclusions." We are standing on rock-solid facts, comparing what the Bible states with what we see in history and objectively verifiable facts, such as the million people that currently live in the region that once was Babylon.

Someone is jumping to conclusions and is standing on facts composed of quicksand. As explained above a million people living in the region where Babylon meas nothing. I doubt if you examine the wealth of the people living their, they will not be wealthy people making Babylon a centre of great wealth or a city to boast about.

I started this thread because you boldly proclaimed that prophecy proves the Bible. Your statement is not supported by the facts. If you are willing to accept the Bible because you thought it was proven by the facts, must you not reject it now that it has been proven false?

I do maintain that God's Word is true and prophecy as declared by God is the only way to prove God. Up to now, the facts you have presented do not add up to much and are not as conclusive as you assert. I will let others comment. OK I have to examine Isaiah 13, but there is no-way from your your quoting Isaiah 47 that you have not taken into account the style of the languate used.

All the best,

David