Benjamin's Cup

[Charisma]

Hi dux,

I don't know if I'm disagreeing with you (at all), since by 0 AD the inheritance rights of women would have been well-established in Israel, and, the New Testament contains (that is, what has been written) more than enough narrative, knowledge and instruction for us to grapple with, apart from adding possible back-stories to those of which we've been directly informed (like Numbers 36 being applied to Mary). But of course, you can believe what you like about Mary's situation. I still think it's pure guesswork on your part with not a written word to support it.

As I've already stated, to me, the really really interesting thing about Jesus' genealogy is that He was the promised 'seed' of Eve, adopted into Joseph's family, thus giving Him right to be called the 'son of David'. Not just any son, but the son which fulfilled mountains of prophecy, thus confirming Him as the Messiah. Without His 'natural' parentage, He would not be the Messiah.

'Kingly Reign' theology is not my thing - but 'the adoption' is.

Romans 9: my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises; 5 Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came]...'

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Galatians 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.


There is more to read carefully in 1 Chronicles, too. Chapter 3:16 And the sons of Jehoiakim: Jeconiah his son, Zedekiah his son. {Jeconiah: also called, Jehoiachin or Coniah} 17 And the sons of Jeconiah; Assir, Salathiel his son, {Salathiel: Heb. Shealtiel} 18 Malchiram also, and Pedaiah, and Shenazar, Jecamiah, Hoshama, and Nedabiah. 19 And the sons of Pedaiah [were], Zerubbabel, and Shimei: and the sons of Zerubbabel; Meshullam, and Hananiah, and Shelomith their sister: :

According to that account, Salathiel is Jeconiah's grandson, Assir being his actual father. I'm beginning to wonder if 'son of' is a way of distinguishing generational gaps rather than direct lineage. There is only one Zerubbabel, and his father is NOT Salathiel, but Pedaiah! Aaargh!

[duxrow]

Hope this helps, Charisma -- it's not any easy subject.

Some say that women aren’t in the genealogies, but I beg to disagree!

2K23:36 has wife of Jehoiakim as daughter of Pedaiah! And 'Shelomith their sister', from 1Chr3:19. The mothers of most kings of Judah are duly noted.

Another Pedaiah is in 1Chr27:20.
Salathiel called Shealtiel in margin of 1Chr3:17 KJV

Maybe spelling at fault, because the Zorobabel in Mt 1:13 cannot be the same person as the Zorobabel in Lk3:27 followed by Salathiel
The ‘Zeru’ is OT, it’s ‘Zoro’ in the NT.

What’s with ADOPTED? The Gentiles have now been adopted (or grafted, Rom 11:17) into God’s Covenant, but Jesus is purebred #66 from Adam & Eve#1, Abraham#20, Boaz#30 David#33, Solomon#34, Hezekia#46, Josiah#49, Salathiel#53

The page "Names" at Gospelsmiths.com might help.. Blessings!

[Charisma]

Hi dux,


Thanks for your reply.

Regarding Zorobabel's parentage, both Matthew and Luke make the same claim. What makes you think they don't?

Matthew 1:'... and Salathiel begat Zorobabel...'

Luke 3:'... Zorobabel, which was [the son] of Salathiel...'

I agree there are women hidden in the men in the genealogies, but Matthew's use of 'begat' seems to mean something different than we would normally expect; we would think 'begat' meant that Salathiel (Shealtiel) was the physical father of Zorobabel. How to decipher the Hebrew mind in regard to the phraseology? For instance, did the other brothers/fathers die, so that Salathiel was the older of the (only) two living male relatives? Is this how they get linked together in the mind of the genealogist? Or, was it that the others did not return from Babylon, and therefore forfeited further mention, and most definitely didn't/wouldn't make it into the Christ's genealogy? When one looks earlier in the chapter at the way Bathsheba's children are listed, they are all out of birth order. Maybe Jeconiah's are, too.

This is how the Jewish Publication Society (JPS 1917) translate those verses in I Chronicles 3:16 And the sons of Jehoiakim: Jeconiah his son, Zedekiah his son. 17 And the sons of Jeconiah--the same is Assir--Shealtiel his son; 18 and Malchiram, and Pedaiah, and Shenazzar, Jekamiah, Hoshama, and Nedabiah. 19 And the sons of Pedaiah: Zerubbabel, and Shimei...' This makes 'Assir' yet another name for Jeconiah, but at least it rules out that extra generation I thought it had intended. So, Salathiel and Pedaiah are brothers, and Zerubabbel is the following generation. Therefore, Salathiel begat Zeruababbel via Pedaiah. (That's okay with me!)

Regarding adoption, it seems you are missing something in Romans 9:4: that is,
1) to whom Paul is speaking
2) that he puts adoption as the first (main) thing to which Israelites are entitled BY FAITH (not forgetting Romans 10:3).

If they (Israelites) don't believe in Messiah Jesus, they won't be 'adopted' (as sons of God). Hence the famous verses following:

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

[duxrow]

:whiteflag: OK, Charisma - "UNCLE"

Next subject!

I'll go quietly!

[Charisma]

Hi dux,

That's an oxymoron if ever I saw one!

I'll go quietly!

That OT Zeru spelling reflects the Aramaic, I think, and the Zoro the Greek; but I can find only one Zoro/Zeru. All the places he's mentioned are compatible with the history through which he lived. You're correct there is more than one Pedaiah, though.




Sorry you feel you're banging your head against a wall. It's never my intention to be obdurate... but I do like to get down to (biblical) details...




Blessings to you

[duxrow]

OK, Charisma, we'll call a truce, 'cause both of us apparently like details.
Isn't an oxymoron more like kosher-ham or peaceful barbarian?