Desexing the Bible

[David M]

Hello Rose

My problem is not with what Jesus said, but with what he didn't say! Not once did Jesus denounce the horrendous abuse of human rights inflicted upon women, and many times that abuse was commanded by Yahweh!

Rose

I see the problem you have is of your own making. As you say; "My problem". You can argue with someone about what they say or have said (verbally or written). How can you argue with someone for what they have not said? Why should Jesus make comment on something that does not exist; it only exists in your mind in the way you have built up your argument. You have created the problem; and you are not accepting reasonable evidence to support the fact that the problem is not so great as you make it out to be.

You might not agree with the reasons I or anyone else has given you to say that God is not as immoral as you make out, or that the human rights of women are not abused by God, or that the 32,000 virgins were not all raped. Until you respond by saying something like, "I appreciate what you are saying and can see why you have come to that conclusion", how can we know you are listening? It appears you are hiding behind a wall you have built and that is now your problem of your making. Maybe if you acknowledge what people are saying by way of reply to you and you really understand their reasons given, your wall might start to come down to a height where you can see over it.

All the best.

David

[Rose]

Hello Rose



I see the problem you have is of your own making. As you say; "My problem". You can argue with someone about what they say or have said (verbally or written). How can you argue with someone for what they have not said? Why should Jesus make comment on something that does not exist; it only exists in your mind in the way you have built up your argument. You have created the problem; and you are not accepting reasonable evidence to support the fact that the problem is not so great as you make it out to be.

You might not agree with the reasons I or anyone else has given you to say that God is not as immoral as you make out, or that the human rights of women are not abused by God, or that the 32,000 virgins were not all raped. Until you respond by saying something like, "I appreciate what you are saying and can see why you have come to that conclusion", how can we know you are listening? It appears you are hiding behind a wall you have built and that is now your problem of your making. Maybe if you acknowledge what people are saying by way of reply to you and you really understand their reasons given, your wall might start to come down to a height where you can see over it.

All the best.

David

Good morning David,

I had to chuckle to myself when I read the sentence you wrote that I highlighted in red. Did you intend to say "God is NOT AS IMMORAL", and the 32,000 virgins "were NOT ALL RAPED"? If so the implications are pretty bad because you are admitting that God is indeed immoral, and some of the virgins were indeed raped on command of Yahweh! This my friend is the point I have been trying to make...the Bible contains immoral acts attributed to Yahweh! Whether it be a handful or a dump truck full, it matters not.

According to the Bible Yahweh is directly responsible for immoral acts being committed, and Jesus did not address those issues that DO EXIST in Scripture...therein lies the problem, by not condemning he is tacitly condoning.

All the best,
Rose

[David M]

Good morning David,

I had to chuckle to myself when I read the sentence you wrote that I highlighted in red. Did you intend to say "God is NOT AS IMMORAL", and the 32,000 virgins "were NOT ALL RAPED"? If so the implications are pretty bad because you are admitting that God is indeed immoral, and some of the virgins were indeed raped on command of Yahweh! This my friend is the point I have been trying to make...the Bible contains immoral acts attributed to Yahweh! Whether it be a handful or a dump truck full, it matters not.

According to the Bible Yahweh is directly responsible for immoral acts being committed, and Jesus did not address those issues that DO EXIST in Scripture...therein lies the problem, by not condemning he is tacitly condoning.

All the best,
Rose

Hi Rose
I am glad you had a chuckle. Looks like an extra "as" got inserted by mistake. No-one can vouch for the actions of everyone, and there is always likely to be a rebel. I would not say with 100% certainty that no Israelite wasn't disobedient and could have raped, but then that person whould have been subject to punishment for disobeying orders. You know I do not share your view that the 32,000 virgins were raped.

Jesus understood the ancient scriptures better than you do and understood the judgement and justice of God better than you do. Maybe you will get your chance to ask Jesus at the time of your judgment what he thought on the point you are making. You have raised your argument numerous times and as long as others have countered you rargument, then the undecided coming to this thread can choose who they consider to be correct or wrong after studying the matter for themselves. It is good we have presented both sides of the argument.


David

[Rose]

Hi Rose
I am glad you had a chuckle. Looks like an extra "as" got inserted by mistake. No-one can vouch for the actions of everyone, and there is always likely to be a rebel. I would not say with 100% certainty that no Israelite wasn't disobedient and could have raped, but then that person whould have been subject to punishment for disobeying orders. You know I do not share your view that the 32,000 virgins were raped.

Hi David,

Yes, I do know you do not share my view and I wish it was because you think the exact number 32,000 is exaggerated, but I know that is not the case. It is very troubling to me that it has only been men who have tried to justify and condone Yahweh's command through Moses to give virgin women who have just witnessed the slaughter of their entire family, to the Hebrew soldiers as wives. Is it because some men are so hardened and desensitized they see no problem with girls being given to men as property? Is this what the Bible does to a mans heart? Why anyone would make excuses for such horrendous behavior is beyond me. If God can command a woman's rights be taken from her, why can he not command a woman's rights be given to her?

Jesus understood the ancient scriptures better than you do and understood the judgement and justice of God better than you do. Maybe you will get your chance to ask Jesus at the time of your judgment what he thought on the point you are making. You have raised your argument numerous times and as long as others have countered you argument, then the undecided coming to this thread can choose who they consider to be correct or wrong after studying the matter for themselves. It is good we have presented both sides of the argument.


David

Yes, I am quite sure Jesus understood the Old Testament better than I do, perhaps that is why he left the topic of Yahweh's immoral behavior alone...that was one can of worms he did not want to open.

Yes, I have indeed raised the question of Yahweh's immorality many times and all I get as a response is excuses and justifications. No one can deny the facts I present, they can only give weak reasons like "God's ways are higher than our ways", "God allowed these things to happen because of the hardness of mans heart", or "the people had to be killed because they were wicked"...those are not arguments.

Take care,
Rose

[David M]

Hi David,

Yes, I do know you do not share my view and I wish it was because you think the exact number 32,000 is exaggerated, but I know that is not the case. It is very troubling to me that it has only been men who have tried to justify and condone Yahweh's command through Moses to give virgin women who have just witnessed the slaughter of their entire family, to the Hebrew soldiers as wives. Is it because some men are so hardened and desensitized they see no problem with girls being given to men as property? Is this what the Bible does to a mans heart? Why anyone would make excuses for such horrendous behavior is beyond me. If God can command a woman's rights be taken from her, why can he not command a woman's rights be given to her?



Yes, I am quite sure Jesus understood the Old Testament better than I do, perhaps that is why he left the topic of Yahweh's immoral behavior alone...that was one can of worms he did not want to open.

Yes, I have indeed raised the question of Yahweh's immorality many times and all I get as a response is excuses and justifications. No one can deny the facts I present, they can only give weak reasons like "God's ways are higher than our ways", "God allowed these things to happen because of the hardness of mans heart", or "the people had to be killed because they were wicked"...those are not arguments.
Take care,
Rose

Hello Rose
It is a pity Debz has not replied. I wonder if she is reading this? She replied to your posts in Richard's thread on 'The Male Bias of the Bible' and she disagreed with you and gave excellent reasons for doing so. I know of many wormen (not on this forum) who would disagree with your condemnation of God. I would also like to read some responses from women on this subject on this forum.

If they are not arguments, please give an example of what would be. Idolatry might be of no consequence to you, but it is an abomination to God. Even God's chosen people could not stop themselves from following the practice of other nations, so how do you propose to stop it or limit it? Again, we have the commandment not to practice it, so what is going to happen if God does as you suggest and asks people politely to refrain? If these people had any respect for God, they would not be doing it.

Also, it is not merely worshipping graven images that is an abomination, but the evil pracitices that went with it; namely infant sacrifice to name one. Do you not see this as a valid argument for God dealing justly with these people? What do the courts do if you take someone to court for killing their child? It is a pity the death penalty has been abolished. Are you going to smack these people on the hand and say; "don't do it again"?

I think it is about time you woke up and admitted that these were evil practices and if God metered out punishment on a nation for committing such crimes, God was being just. If you cannot accept this, then you are receptive to no argument at all and you are just making unfounded assertions which you cannot back up. You will be one of the many who take the Bible text at face value without discerning what it is actually teaching us. You will be one of the many who are falsely promulgating lies, because of lack of understanding.

All the best.

David