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  1. #1
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    The Return of the Divine Mother

    Of all life forms, humans alone are the only ones who restrict their own expression of experiencing life to its fullest. I encourage everyone watching this video to allow themselves to fully experience all that it means to be human.

    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  2. #2
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    Hi Rose!

    Greetings and salutations...respectfully.


    We might not find our selfs on the same page concerning certain things...but we do share some things common in this thread ov life.

    Thanks for the food for thought and here's one bakatcha and anyone who will look further than their four square walls, ceiling, and floor.




    Sincerely from somewhere outseid the box,

    Little Barefooteded Timmy
    (bahhhchu can call me Emir or Ouranos if it suits ya')


    p.s. FYI: The vocal is Jon Anderson
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Hi Rose!

    Greetings and salutations...respectfully.


    We might not find our selfs on the same page concerning certain things...but we do share some things common in this thread ov life.

    Thanks for the food for thought and here's one bakatcha and anyone who will look further than their four square walls, ceiling, and floor.





    Sincerely from somewhere outseid the box,

    Little Barefooteded Timmy
    (bahhhchu can call me Emir or Ouranos if it suits ya')


    p.s. FYI: The vocal is Jon Anderson
    Thanks for sharing a beautiful human experience...

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Of all life forms, humans alone are the only ones who restrict their own expression of experiencing life to its fullest. I encourage everyone watching this video to allow themselves to fully experience all that it means to be human.
    Hello Rose
    I loved the music and the images although I could not find myself agreeing with all the human sentiments.

    God is more that "No-thing". God is more than only "Unconditional Love".

    I just wish you had not lost sight of God as the loving Father who has lots of things in store for those who love and fear him. The ultimate gift of love open to you is eternal life upon this earth of which we cannot begin to imagine the beautiful pleasures that are in store. Anything you can ever imagine now, will not compare. At minumum, it will consist of all the beauty we see in nature, of which my lifetime, I have only seen a fraction of what God has created.

    God is working for the benefit of believers in Him. He wants a relationship with all those who believe in Him. Whilst we cannot see God and while we are in our sinful state, He will not allow us to see Him in His full Glory. Nevertheless, in this life we are instructed to walk with God. For the present, we should walk through life calling on God as our heavenly Father, and trusting Him as we would do our natural Father when we were a child. God wants us to feel His prescene by our side, if we will let Him. It is more joyous walking through life being led by God than not being led at all. Our ultimate hope and joy is not in this life, but in the life to come. As Paul wrote; "if in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable". God is promising to put everything right in future. God is working out His purpose and we have to learn patience and wait. I do not tell God how to correct matters; I know He will, because he has given us plenty of assurance by the things we see happening. We have the assurance of eternal life in that He raised Jesus from the dead. I know you know these things, but you have lost the connection through faith.

    All the injustice you see Rose with which I agree (except for where you lay the blame), God will put right. The requirement of God is simply this: Micah 6:8 He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? This is simplicity. These are the motives we must have. Jesus summed up all the law and what the prophets had said and gave us the two great commandments; the second of which is; "to love thy neighbor as thyself." If only everyone in the world had this regard for everyone else, the world would be a far different place and we would not be having our heated discussions on this forum. God has given us these simple rules to live by and it is man that cannot live by them and thus creates all the evil that we see around us and read of in the Bible.

    I have to reconcile the goodness and the severity of God with blessings and cursings that come from God. As God has said, He has declared all this from the beginning, and declared it openly. We cannot say we have not been told. I must be humble before God, just as Jesus demonstrated perfect humility and is our ensample. God is all-knowing, and all-wise. It would not be humble of me to claim to know better than God. We have been discussing horrible events which have been written down for our learning. Unfortunately, you are not been seeing the lessons. Therefore, you are forgetting the ultimate love of God that He will show when He gives his faithful believers eternal life. Our battle should not be with God for what you see He has or has not done, when our battle is against the world, and the way humans have made the world the evil place that it is. Hence, the call for faithful believers to come out from the world and be separate. The two can never be reconciled. The world is enmity with God. A radical change has to take place and that will only come about when Christ returns. The plan of God is not changing, God will bring about His purpose and we all have an opportunity to share in it, if that is what we want. The promises of God have not changed from the day God made His first promise to Abraham. It is up to us to change; not God. We are all responsible for the choices we make. No one can make you unhappy; that is a state of mind you have control over. Don't blame anyone or anything for making you unhappy. The same goes for lots of other things we want to lay the blame for.

    I agree that for most of the population they are not experiencing the joys of this life to the full. A lot of it is to do with the choices we make for ourselves. God has simply told us what is rquired of us; we do not have to carry a tome of the law around with us everywhere we go. With the right mind; that of Christ, we should not get involved with the world and bring its problems on ourselves. We only have problems with people who are not like-minded. Oh that we could all be like-minded for good.

    Again Rose, I just wish you could get the real love of God into perspective, and leave God to deal with the disobedience of men. God is giving every generation a reason to believe Him and accept His gift of salvation, which is eternal life in the kingdom to come. I hope you are able to reconnect with this hope and see God for the goodness that continues to come from Him and not concentrate on the negatives that are building up in your mind. If you could only set your mind on the Promises of God and the wonderful kingdom to come, and the equal opportunity God has given to all without any bias.

    Not only are you denying yourself the opportunity by your eagerness to stand correct with yor assertions, you are in danger of robbing young minds from their inheritance for taking them away from God. God will be true to His word and not be merciful to those who prevent young minds coming to Him. If you have one inkling that God does exist, even though you vehemently disagree with the reported things God has done, I hope you will think about the consequences of your actions. God does not want anyone to perish, but if that is what people want to happen to themelves, God will not stop them.


    Till next time.


    David
    Last edited by David M; 04-08-2012 at 06:25 AM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I just wish you had not lost sight of God as the loving Father who has lots of things in store for those who love and fear him.

    God is working for the benefit of believers in Him. He wants a relationship with all those who believe in Him.

    Therefore, you are forgetting the ultimate love of God that He will show when He gives his faithful believers eternal life.
    Hi David,

    Thank your for sharing your beliefs. There are many things you wrote that I would like to discuss, but I think it would be best if we focused on your central point, the idea that God has good plans for people who "believe" while the rest will be excluded.

    I don't understand why God would use "belief" in a dogma as a criterion for anything. Most people throughout history never even had a chance to "believe" because they never heard, and of those that have heard, most have held contrary beliefs. For example, you deny that Jesus is God. Most Christians would say that is a damnable heresy and so class you amongst the unbelievers who will not inherit the kingdom of God. But if you are correct that Jesus is not God, then all the "orthodox" Christians would be damned because claiming a man to be God would be a blasphemous error.

    And what about all the other versions of Christianity. Mormonism, JWs, Catholic, Greek Orthodox, etc.? What exactly must a person "believe" in order to be saved?

    So this is my fundamental problem with Christianity. It says that God has made an arbitrary rule that few have heard and fewer have properly understood!

    Why would God judge me according to my opinion about one religious dogma amongst all the dogmas in the world? Why would he judge me when I CANNOT believe because of valid intellectual problems with the Bible, such as the fact that it contains errors, contradictions, and moral abominations attributed to God? I CANNOT believe the book because it is demonstrably false on many points. Why would God condemn me for being honest?

    Stated plainly, it seems insane to me. I can't imagine that the true God would set up such an irrational system of salvation.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Hi David,

    Thank your for sharing your beliefs. There are many things you wrote that I would like to discuss, but I think it would be best if we focused on your central point, the idea that God has good plans for people who "believe" while the rest will be excluded.

    I don't understand why God would use "belief" in a dogma as a criterion for anything. Most people throughout history never even had a chance to "believe" because they never heard, and of those that have heard, most have held contrary beliefs. For example, you deny that Jesus is God. Most Christians would say that is a damnable heresy and so class you amongst the unbelievers who will not inherit the kingdom of God. But if you are correct that Jesus is not God, then all the "orthodox" Christians would be damned because claiming a man to be God would be a blasphemous error.

    And what about all the other versions of Christianity. Mormonism, JWs, Catholic, Greek Orthodox, etc.? What exactly must a person "believe" in order to be saved?

    So this is my fundamental problem with Christianity. It says that God has made an arbitrary rule that few have heard and fewer have properly understood!

    Why would God judge me according to my opinion about one religious dogma amongst all the dogmas in the world? Why would he judge me when I CANNOT believe because of valid intellectual problems with the Bible, such as the fact that it contains errors, contradictions, and moral abominations attributed to God? I CANNOT believe the book because it is demonstrably false on many points. Why would God condemn me for being honest?

    Stated plainly, it seems insane to me. I can't imagine that the true God would set up such an irrational system of salvation.

    All the best,

    Richard
    It doesn't matter if there are a million denominations and religions , just believe in 2 things.... Love God with all your heart, soul and might and love others as your self. Remember to do God's will. Do it and you are not fsr from the kingdom of heaven.

    God Blessed in Jesus name.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  7. #7
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    Hello Richard

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Hi David,

    Thank your for sharing your beliefs. There are many things you wrote that I would like to discuss, but I think it would be best if we focused on your central point, the idea that God has good plans for people who "believe" while the rest will be excluded.
    God has made it very clear about the type of people who will perish. It is not necessary to produce a quote to support this. Universal salvation is not taught in the Bible and I shudder to think of the consequences if it was. It is not my place to judge nor is it my place to limit God's mercy.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    I don't understand why God would use "belief" in a dogma as a criterion for anything. Most people throughout history never even had a chance to "believe" because they never heard, and of those that have heard, most have held contrary beliefs. For example, you deny that Jesus is God. Most Christians would say that is a damnable heresy and so class you amongst the unbelievers who will not inherit the kingdom of God. But if you are correct that Jesus is not God, then all the "orthodox" Christians would be damned because claiming a man to be God would be a blasphemous error.
    Those who have not received the law, are not under the condemnation of the law and therefore, I leave it to God to be just and show mercy on whom He will, if they are judged.
    God is looking for obedience. Jesus demonstrated perfect obedience. Faith and belief is necessary;(Heb 11:6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
    With others, I claim Jesus is not God. If I am wrong in my belief of his nature, I cannot be accused of diminishing the victory and the accomplishment of Jesus or of not holding him in the highest esteem. I praise God for providing Jesus and providing a way for us to be saved. I acknowledge God as the One and only true God and that His Only Begotten Son is living for evermore and has earned the highest position in Heaven next to God, and who is presently our mediator between man and God and eventually we shall see Jesus and be with Jesus in the kingdom. I shall leave it to God to decide if what I believe is blasphemous' otherwise it is the word of man against me. I hold God in the highest possible esteem and Jesus as His only begotten Son. The promises of God are to those who believe this (John3:16) I am confident that the Trinity was wrongly derived at, but this is not the thread to continue this subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    And what about all the other versions of Christianity. Mormonism, JWs, Catholic, Greek Orthodox, etc.? What exactly must a person "believe" in order to be saved?
    John 3:16 for starters and this means understanding the implication of what this verse means. Faith only comes by hearing and hearing, by the Word of God. As for those religions that have produced their own books by which to teach the followers, then they can be dead in their sins if they are not doing as God requires and has revealed in His inspired word. You accuse me at times of not accepting the words at face value and saying they are as plain as day and yet verses that are likewise clear as day, relating to the nature of Jesus, you cannot accept (as a lot of others). The thread on 'Jesus is not God' has come to a halt for the moment, it is time I think to produce as much evidence for and against and see which way the balance tips.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    So this is my fundamental problem with Christianity. It says that God has made an arbitrary rule that few have heard and fewer have properly understood!
    Once you have been told the Truth of God's Word, you cannot say you have not been told. You are expected to do your own due diligence and check what you hear and read with the word of God. Few people properly understand it because they do not take the time to find out what it means. It takes many hours to read the Bible. At first it helps to be guided in what to read to get to the fundamental truths more quickly. God has put on record so much in the Bible, it is a lifetime's study and a lifetime is not long enough to appreciate everything it is telling us. Reading the Bible over and over, brings new revelations each time. It is amazing how much can be brought to light by considering small passages of scripture. Unless, you have a desire to search out the truth, only a fraction of what God is teaching in His revealed word is appreciated. The more it is studied in depth, the more wonderful the divine authorship is seen. People who mock the Bible, are the ones who either have not read it fully, or have not tried to understand it. Hosea 6:4 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee,

    Why should God save those who completely reject Him? Why should God save nations which have completely rejected Him? How can you say of nations that are Godless, and who practice idolatry that anyone of those people is guiltless or innocent? Babies are innocent but also of an age not to understand while it is horrible to read of, it is the parents who are at fault and guilty of bringing God's vengeance on themselves. Babies would grow up in an idolatrous and wicked culture and become adults equally rejecting God. What happens if you kill all the adults and spare the babies? Who looks after them? They would die if left alone.

    God has shown patience tolerating the nations as long as He has. Look at the number of nations and people that have rejected Him. Man has shown he is incapable of ruling himself in ways that are right. For the last 2000 years God has left us with the teaching and the example of His Son and what has man done? The world is no better for letting man rule. The attrocities Rose is attributing to God, pale compared to the killing that has gone on in all the wars throughout the world. Have faith that God will deal justly with the innocent and do not limit His grace to be merciful on whom He will. In the meantime, teach the ways of the Lord are just. Hosea 14:9 Who is wise, and he shall understand these things? prudent, and he shall know them? for the ways of the LORD are right, and the just shall walk in them: but the transgressors shall fall therein.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Why would God judge me according to my opinion about one religious dogma amongst all the dogmas in the world? Why would he judge me when I CANNOT believe because of valid intellectual problems with the Bible, such as the fact that it contains errors, contradictions, and moral abominations attributed to God? I CANNOT believe the book because it is demonstrably false on many points. Why would God condemn me for being honest?
    You are not condemned for being honest. I am not going to judge. God knows your heart and if your heart is right with God, that is all that counts. As I have said in another post to you, take out of the Bible, all that offends you and see what you have left. Can you believe in God with what you have left? Rose and you are highlighting what you consider are abominable things done by God. I suggest you list the ways that God has demonstrated His love and His patience and His longsuffering. Consider all the promises of God and the message of salvation and the eternal life that God is offering. Rightly balance the word of God so you get things into the right perspective. Others have, and others are countering your claims. I would worry if they could not. The fact is; your arguments are not water-tight. I do not express myself that well on occassions and use the wrong words, and I can understand the way you show the weakness in some of the statements made and how you point out the weakness of other's statements, which I would agree with you. I think you need to think about what others are saying instead of leaping to rubbish alternative explanations. As a bystander, I appreciate the arguments presented from both sides and I am more likely to see a middle way. All possible interpretations should be held in abeyance, until all the evidence is in, by which to make a balanced decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Stated plainly, it seems insane to me. I can't imagine that the true God would set up such an irrational system of salvation.
    How is it irrational? God knows the end from the beginning. God has a plan and He has a stratedgy. This does not have to mean that every tactical move was planned by God, but God uses tactics at the time to bring about His pupose and keep His plan on course.
    Right from the very beginning, the principle is; there can be no remission of sins without the shedding of blood. That principle was in force up to the time God gave His only begotten Son as the perfect one-off sacrifice. We do not enter the Kingdom of God by taking an exam at the end of our lives. We are judged by the person we are and what we have done with our lives and whether we have believed in God and His Son and tried to be obedient and do the will of God. By rights we have all sinned and therefore (with the exception of Jesus), no one deserves to be in the kingdom of God. I am thankful that God was so merciful to king David for the two offences he committed and for which he would have been put to death; God spared him. That gives me hope for all the wrong I have done, and yet I do not feel I match up to the stature of David, whereby God called David, "a man after His own heart". You criticize God for not putting David to death under the penalty of the law and ignore the fact that God was very merciful. If David had been put to death, we would not have so many Psalms written by him which teach us so much about David's character and his thoughts towards God. God knows our hearts and whatever we say by word of mouth or in print, God knows the intent of our hearts. How contrite are we? Do we recognize that we need forgiveness?

    I can liken God selecting His people for the kingdom to be like gathering precious stones (gems). Gems are few and far between. Amongst the hundreds of tons of dirt you find one precious stone here and there. Do we consider oursleves as precious stones chosen by God making up His jewels? I think there will be a great multitude in the kingdom to come, but few by comparison to the billions that have ever lived. How many more will be saved during the millennium reign of Christ? We have no idea; it could be millions.

    We must look to ourselves before we say how God should judge others or how He should bring about salvation.

    All the best,

    David
    Last edited by David M; 04-09-2012 at 09:02 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    It doesn't matter if there are a million denominations and religions , just believe in 2 things.... Love God with all your heart, soul and might and love others as your self. Remember to do God's will. Do it and you are not fsr from the kingdom of heaven.
    I can do the "love others" part.

    But what do you mean by "love God?" I don't know of any God, so how am I supposed to love him/her/it?

    Please tell me what "loving God" entails.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    God has made it very clear about the type of people who will perish. It is not necessary to produce a quote to support this. Universal salvation is not taught in the Bible and I shudder to think of the consequences if it was. It is not my place to judge nor is it my place to limit God's mercy.
    You "shudder" to think that the Almighty God of Perfect Love would be able to redeem all creation, as it is written?

    2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    God can't be "all in all" and have a hell full of billions of unreconciled sinners. Many early Christians were Universalists. This site says:
    As late as A.D. 400, Jerome says "most people" (plerique), and Augustine "very many" (quam plurimi), believed in Universalism, notwithstanding that the tremendous influence of Augustine, and the mighty power of the semi-pagan secular arm were arrayed against it.
    And there is a book (available online here) that says Universalism was the prevailing Christian doctrine until the fifth century. You should research the history of Christianity before you make such judgments.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I don't understand why God would use "belief" in a dogma as a criterion for anything. Most people throughout history never even had a chance to "believe" because they never heard, and of those that have heard, most have held contrary beliefs. For example, you deny that Jesus is God. Most Christians would say that is a damnable heresy and so class you amongst the unbelievers who will not inherit the kingdom of God. But if you are correct that Jesus is not God, then all the "orthodox" Christians would be damned because claiming a man to be God would be a blasphemous error.
    Those who have not received the law, are not under the condemnation of the law and therefore, I leave it to God to be just and show mercy on whom He will, if they are judged.
    God is looking for obedience. Jesus demonstrated perfect obedience. Faith and belief is necessary;(Heb 11:6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
    With others, I claim Jesus is not God. If I am wrong in my belief of his nature, I cannot be accused of diminishing the victory and the accomplishment of Jesus or of not holding him in the highest esteem. I praise God for providing Jesus and providing a way for us to be saved. I acknowledge God as the One and only true God and that His Only Begotten Son is living for evermore and has earned the highest position in Heaven next to God, and who is presently our mediator between man and God and eventually we shall see Jesus and be with Jesus in the kingdom. I shall leave it to God to decide if what I believe is blasphemous' otherwise it is the word of man against me. I hold God in the highest possible esteem and Jesus as His only begotten Son. The promises of God are to those who believe this (John3:16) I am confident that the Trinity was wrongly derived at, but this is not the thread to continue this subject.
    You didn't answer my question. Why would God use the criterion of "belief" to determine the eternal fate of a person? That makes no sense at all. What does my opinion about which religious dogmas are true or false have to do with my eternal fate?

    Why would God accept or reject a person depending only on if they assert the Jesus is or is not the Son of God? I don't understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    John 3:16 for starters and this means understanding the implication of what this verse means. Faith only comes by hearing and hearing, by the Word of God. As for those religions that have produced their own books by which to teach the followers, then they can be dead in their sins if they are not doing as God requires and has revealed in His inspired word. You accuse me at times of not accepting the words at face value and saying they are as plain as day and yet verses that are likewise clear as day, relating to the nature of Jesus, you cannot accept (as a lot of others). The thread on 'Jesus is not God' has come to a halt for the moment, it is time I think to produce as much evidence for and against and see which way the balance tips.
    Mormons believe John 3:16. Are they saved?

    You say that I must "understand the implications of what this verse means." That's the problem. The devil is in the details. Everyone has different "interpretations" of what that verse means. Calvinists say the "whosoever" applies only to the Elect and that the idea that anyone can choose to believe is a heresy. And on it goes - why would anyone believe that God would determine our eternal fate based upon our half-informed fallible opinions about the meaning of an ancient book written in Greek? It makes no sense to me at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Once you have been told the Truth of God's Word, you cannot say you have not been told. You are expected to do your own due diligence and check what you hear and read with the word of God. Few people properly understand it because they do not take the time to find out what it means. It takes many hours to read the Bible. At first it helps to be guided in what to read to get to the fundamental truths more quickly. God has put on record so much in the Bible, it is a lifetime's study and a lifetime is not long enough to appreciate everything it is telling us. Reading the Bible over and over, brings new revelations each time. It is amazing how much can be brought to light by considering small passages of scripture. Unless, you have a desire to search out the truth, only a fraction of what God is teaching in His revealed word is appreciated. The more it is studied in depth, the more wonderful the divine authorship is seen. People who mock the Bible, are the ones who either have not read it fully, or have not tried to understand it. Hosea 6:4 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee,
    Your answer only amplifies the problem. It's all a matter of highly disputable INTERPRETATIONS made by fallible and ignorant people. Everybody has different opinions and nobody can have any certainty that their opinions are correct. It would be insane for God to judge people by such a standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Why should God save those who completely reject Him?
    Nobody is rejecting "God" - we are rejecting a demonstrably fallacious ancient book that makes false claims about God. There is a world of difference. And the true God would understand that it would be entirely irrational to condemn people to an eternal hell (or annihilation, or whatever) because of the opinion they held about such a book.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Why should God save nations which have completely rejected Him? How can you say of nations that are Godless, and who practice idolatry that anyone of those people is guiltless or innocent? Babies are innocent but also of an age not to understand while it is horrible to read of, it is the parents who are at fault and guilty of bringing God's vengeance on themselves. Babies would grow up in an idolatrous and wicked culture and become adults equally rejecting God. What happens if you kill all the adults and spare the babies? Who looks after them? They would die if left alone.
    So you advocate killing babies because they would have no one to care for them? Why then did Moses kill everyone except the 32,000 virgins? Obviously, they had a "use" for those women. To hell with rest.

    God could have driven those people out of the land any way he wanted to. He didn't have to order his people to become murderous genocidal maniacs. Have you no concept of what murdering thousands of women and children would do to your soul? It would totally brutalize you! Why would God freely choose to corrupt his people like that? He had no limit to the choices he could have made. He freely CHOSE violence. And oddly enough, it seems to be his "modus operandi." Why is God so enamored with VIOLENCE????

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    God has shown patience tolerating the nations as long as He has. Look at the number of nations and people that have rejected Him. Man has shown he is incapable of ruling himself in ways that are right. For the last 2000 years God has left us with the teaching and the example of His Son and what has man done? The world is no better for letting man rule. The attrocities Rose is attributing to God, pale compared to the killing that has gone on in all the wars throughout the world. Have faith that God will deal justly with the innocent and do not limit His grace to be merciful on whom He will. In the meantime, teach the ways of the Lord are just. Hosea 14:9 Who is wise, and he shall understand these things? prudent, and he shall know them? for the ways of the LORD are right, and the just shall walk in them: but the transgressors shall fall therein.
    The world is infinitely better when humans rule with no religious dogmas. Just compare life under the medieval Roman Catholic Church or under the modern Taliban and you must admit this truth.

    It is not Rose who attributes moral abominations to God. IT IS THE BIBLE that says those things about him.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    You are not condemned for being honest. I am not going to judge. God knows your heart and if your heart is right with God, that is all that counts. As I have said in another post to you, take out of the Bible, all that offends you and see what you have left. Can you believe in God with what you have left? Rose and you are highlighting what you consider are abominable things done by God. I suggest you list the ways that God has demonstrated His love and His patience and His longsuffering. Consider all the promises of God and the message of salvation and the eternal life that God is offering. Rightly balance the word of God so you get things into the right perspective. Others have, and others are countering your claims. I would worry if they could not. The fact is; your arguments are not water-tight. I do not express myself that well on occassions and use the wrong words, and I can understand the way you show the weakness in some of the statements made and how you point out the weakness of other's statements, which I would agree with you. I think you need to think about what others are saying instead of leaping to rubbish alternative explanations. As a bystander, I appreciate the arguments presented from both sides and I am more likely to see a middle way. All possible interpretations should be held in abeyance, until all the evidence is in, by which to make a balanced decision.
    That's a very good suggestion. I can see how you might think that we are "skewed" towards the problems in the Bible. But you must not forget that I spent over a decade proclaim the wonders of God's Word and the glory of the Gospel. So now I'm just balancing the record.

    But let me follow your advice. You want me to consider "all the promises of God and the message of salvation and the eternal life that God is offering." That's the problem. His "promises" are all for the "sweet bye and bye" - an imaginary future. Is there any reason I should believe those promises? If God refuses to answer any prayer in this life why should I believe that he would hold good to those promises? It's all just fantasy - you believe it because it's in the book. You have not given me any reason I should think those promises are true. And worse, the whole concept of God presented in the Bible is obviously false because there is no "God" who goes about doing things or intervening in human affairs. The proof is obvious. Suppose I knew that the Haitian earthquake would kill 200,000 people and I had the ability to warn them but did not. I would be a MORAL MONSTER if I failed to warn them. Therefore, the God of the Bible is either a moral monster or he does not exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Stated plainly, it seems insane to me. I can't imagine that the true God would set up such an irrational system of salvation.
    How is it irrational? God knows the end from the beginning. God has a plan and He has a stratedgy. This does not have to mean that every tactical move was planned by God, but God uses tactics at the time to bring about His pupose and keep His plan on course.
    Right from the very beginning, the principle is; there can be no remission of sins without the shedding of blood. That principle was in force up to the time God gave His only begotten Son as the perfect one-off sacrifice. We do not enter the Kingdom of God by taking an exam at the end of our lives. We are judged by the person we are and what we have done with our lives and whether we have believed in God and His Son and tried to be obedient and do the will of God. By rights we have all sinned and therefore (with the exception of Jesus), no one deserves to be in the kingdom of God.
    It is irrational because God would know that an intelligent and careful reading of the Bible gives any reasonable person good reason to reject it.

    And worse, even if the Bible could be trusted, it would still be irrational to base a person's eternal fate upon their fallible intellectual opinion about a book.

    You seem to be changing the rules. What determines a person's eternal fate? Is it belief in Jesus or following rules or being a good person or having my heart right with God? Or what?

    As for the concept that there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood. That's what primitive people all over the planet have believed, long before Judaism or Christianity evolved. Primitive people have always been into bloody sacrifices. Most if not every doctrine in the NT can be found in the mystery religions that predated it. Read the book Mystery Religions by S. Angus for a good introduction to these facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I am thankful that God was so merciful to king David for the two offences he committed and for which he would have been put to death; God spared him. That gives me hope for all the wrong I have done, and yet I do not feel I match up to the stature of David, whereby God called David, "a man after His own heart". You criticize God for not putting David to death under the penalty of the law and ignore the fact that God was very merciful. If David had been put to death, we would not have so many Psalms written by him which teach us so much about David's character and his thoughts towards God. God knows our hearts and whatever we say by word of mouth or in print, God knows the intent of our hearts. How contrite are we? Do we recognize that we need forgiveness?
    I did not "ignore" that God was "merciful" to David. The problem is that God was inconsistent and unjust. He was "merciful" to the guilty (David) and unjust to the innocent child he chose to slay to "punish" David. That seems like very bad morals to me. God set up a law with supposed "consequences" and then arbitrarily violates his own law and imposes a death penalty on an innocent child.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I can liken God selecting His people for the kingdom to be like gathering precious stones (gems). Gems are few and far between. Amongst the hundreds of tons of dirt you find one precious stone here and there. Do we consider oursleves as precious stones chosen by God making up His jewels? I think there will be a great multitude in the kingdom to come, but few by comparison to the billions that have ever lived. How many more will be saved during the millennium reign of Christ? We have no idea; it could be millions.
    So only "good people" get saved, eh? Why then do they need salvation if they are already "gems" that God finds?

    Again, your doctrine is contrary to the dominant teachings of historical Christianity.

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    I can do the "love others" part.

    But what do you mean by "love God?" I don't know of any God, so how am I supposed to love him/her/it?

    Please tell me what "loving God" entails.
    I have said that before. Loving others is like saying "I love American people"; Loving God is like saying, "I love America". Both must go together i.e. Love God and love others as yourself. It makes no sense by saying, "I love Americans as myself but hate America or I love people but hate the world". God create everything on earth including people, therefore if you love people, you should love God who created the world and everything in it.

    Mark 8:34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: 'Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 35 [B]For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it. 36 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? 37 Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Fatherís glory with the holy angels.'

    What Jesus mean in the bolded part of the passage is this:

    Whoever wants to save his life for selfish reason will lose it but whoever lose his life for Jesus (because he love of God i.e. Jesus) and the gospel will gain it. What is the point if one gains everything (love, money, fame etc.) in the world but loses his life (because he does not love God and the gospel to the point of sacrifice)? If you are ashamed of Jesus (i.e. God) and his teachings (i.e. of Loving God with all your heart, soul and might and love others as yourself) in this sinful world, He will be ashamed of you in front of God the Father when He comes.

    Are you ashamed of Jesus and His teachings?


    Love God and love others as yourself. Amen.
    Last edited by CWH; 04-10-2012 at 02:08 PM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

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