The Promised Land

[Rose]

Say what? You mean God can order the very individuals that he commanded not to murder, or steal...to go and murder and steal and it's OK. So if my neighbor says: "God told me to kill those people down the street, and take their home and goods because they are unrepentant sinners" then it's OK?

So if the US government told the marines to kill Osama and his men, is it ok? What will happened if the marines ignored the order to kill Osama and his men? Obviously, they will be punished for disobeying the order from the US government and be awarded for obeying the order.


There is no bias in the Bible; it's just human misinterpretation. BTW, all religion seems like male biased.

You are comparing apples and oranges. The ordering of the Marines to kill the terrorist Osama Bin Laden who was the mastermind behind the murder of over three thousand innocent people cannot be compared to Yahweh commanding the slaughter of men, women, and children so he could give their land to the Hebrews.

Whose people are people murdering? whose land are people taking? whose goods are people stealing? Humans, lands and goods are creations of God, so who are people murdering? God's people, Whose land are people taking? God's land. Whose goods are people stealing? God's land. Does it make sense for the owner to murder his own family, steal his own land and goods? Does an owner has the right to run his own family as he deems right and do whatever to his land and goods as he deems fit

God is wise indeed.

With that kind of mentality anyone can kill whoever they want and steal their land and say: "God told me I could cause it's his land"! That's just plain crazy!

[CWH]

[QUOTE]

You are comparing apples and oranges. The ordering of the Marines to kill the terrorist Osama Bin Laden who was the mastermind behind the murder of over three thousand innocent people cannot be compared to Yahweh commanding the slaughter of men, women, and children so he could give their land to the Hebrews.

Am I comparing oranges and apples? I am stunned that you do not realized that Osama and his terrorist organization Al Qaieda killed and injured thousands and thousands of people. Families were ruined, properties destroyed, husbands and wives lost, children were also killed in the bombings. And they have other branches and related terrorists groups throughout the world...Jemaiyah Islamiah, Abu Sayab etc. just to name some.

With that kind of mentality anyone can kill whoever they want and steal their land and say: "God told me I could cause it's his land"! That's just plain crazy!

God is not some imaginary concept created by men; one day we will developed so advanced technologically that we will become like God and travel and colonize other worlds throughout the universe.
The people who occupied the lands were evil people that God decided to got rid off (same concept of Iran and many Muslim countries hoping to the wipe Israel from the face of the earth). They have no right to the land that they occupied which were already promised to Abraham long ago before. Those evil people were settling on a land that originally belongs to Abraham and merciful God had allowed them to settle in those lands all those years while hoping that they would change for the better. I see the whole saga like a landlord (God) forcing the evil tenants who refused to leave and have abused the land so that he could rent the land to others more civilized than them. Since God created the world, all lands in the world belongs to him and He have the right to give or rent to whoever he wanted to.

There is actually no such thing as your land or my land; all lands belong to God. I have studied this for decades, have you realized that God have allotted lands to different races and blessed and contained them? The Mongoloid races including the Chinese occupied lands in Asia bounded by the Pacific Ocean to the east, the Gobi desert and high Tibetan mountains to the west and south, the jungles Indo-China to the south and the tundra regions and ice cap in the north. The Negros were confined in much of Middle and South Africa with the Sahara desert to the north, the Indian Ocean to the east and the Atlantic Ocean to the west and Antartica to the south. The Red Indians of North America were confined to the regions around present day USA and Canada, with the tundra regions and ice cap in the north, the Pacific Ocean and the Rockies to the west, the Atlantic Ocean to the east and the jungles of Central America and deserts of California, Mexico to the south. The Europeans were confined by the Atlantic Ocean to the west, the deserts of Central Russia and the deserts of Arabia to the east, the Sahara desert to the south and the tundra regions and ice cap to the north. There seems to be subletting of land to sub-groups of the races contained in their various geographical boundaries, have you wondered why the Japanese occupied the island of Japan? the Indians the sub continent of India?, the aborigines in Australia? the Malays and Melanesians in the Malay Archipelago? the Arabs in Arabia and much of the Middle East? I believe thus that the land of Israel in the Middle East is originally allotted to the Jews which is a subgroup of the Semitic group but has been occupied by different races through the centuries.

May God Blessed our lands.

[David M]

Hello Rose

Say what? You mean God can order the very individuals that he commanded not to murder, or steal...to go and murder and steal and it's OK. So if my neighbor says: "God told me to kill those people down the street, and take their home and goods because they are unrepentant sinners" then it's OK?

It follows CWH's argument, if you were in the army, you would be ordered to kill in the time of war, but you are still expected to live by the civil laws of the land when not at war with the enemy. I have already said; in times of war, God said that the Israelites would be guiltless. They were not allowed to kill at any other time. You still have not admitted the idol worshippers were doing anything wrong in the sight of God. I am looking at this from God's perspective and the rules He laid down. If I look at this from the human perspective, I am inclined to agree with you.
God has given everyone (as far as I know) their human rights to do whatever they want. They can live life they want to, however, no one has the right to attack God's people and subvert God's people. Unless God helped Israel settle in the land He promised to Abraham, do you think the people occupying the land would not have attacked Israel and killed them all? God knew any remnant of these people would pervert His own people. Israel's unfaithfulness to God's instruction resulted in the very thing God knew would happen. Its is a shame you cannot see the lessons God is teaching us by having these horrible events put on record.

The purpose of all the Threads I've started is to show that the deity called Yahweh described in the Bible cannot be the creator of the universe, not to talk about its historical correctness. There is no way a primitive tribal war god, who is biased toward the male, and spends his time making petty rules to show his masculine superiority, could ever be considered the mastermind of all creation.

If that was your purpose, you should have started a thread with that title instead of all these different headings which ends up not the topic of discussion. What you say about God is exactly what He is not. It is a shame we have nothing to agree on concerning God.

What's up with that Bro? You seem to be the one who has not been able to defend what is moral, or right about murdering people to take their land and steal their goods!

I have defended the morality of God. I have stated again why God took the action He did, but you see nothing wrong the practice of idolatry. God will pour out His wrath for all the evil in this world that is happening today, including idolatrous practices. God has not changed His rules. You cannot say you have been warned, or that you did not read the Bible in which this is stated.

Searching out and discussing truthfully what is in the Bible is the reason I have come to the conclusions I have regarding the God of the Bible. I started this journey with no clue of ending up in the position I am today, but there was no way I could retain my integrity and concede authorship of the Bible to God. If one part of the Bible has immoralities attributed to God it affects the whole, because the whole is attributed to God. That does not mean the Bible doesn't contain truth and wisdom as with any religious text written by men.

I think your intention is to find fault and you are spiritually blind to the lessons taught and not disposed to reason. It would be good to know in another thread which parts of the Bible you consider contain truth and which parts you do not regard do not contain truth.

I believe we get our knowledge of "God", or whatever that means for each individual from within ourselves...our inner connection to universal consciousness. Each individuals idea of what the divine is, develops from the culture they live in and how they perceive reality, that is why the god of the Bible reflects the ideas and viewpoints of Bronze Age man. If you do a comparison between the customs and perspective of Bronze Age tribal cultures and Yahweh you will find them very similar.

If you do not think you get any revelation of God from His word (The Bible as it is today), then all your thoughts are either based on the writings of men or are based on your own thoughts. I think the Bible reflects the cultures God has had to deal with, which have been of man's making. God has not changed, it is man's culture that has changed over the centuries.

The Bible most certainly does deny women the same human rights that it gives to men. The Old Testament is the worst culprit, but Paul does a pretty good job in the New Testament.

You fail to understand the writings of Paul in the way I do and so I cannot agree with your statement.

Yes, blame man...that is preciously my point. Men wrote the Bible and continue to try and impose the God they created in their image upon others, to deny them (especially women) equal rights. All human should be afforded the same equal rights, which the Bible denies! That is why I can't believe a loving God inspired the Bible.

Unfortunately, man is to blame for all the evil and injustice in this world and it is not surprising when man does not allow God in their lives. Our socitey is based on man and not God. Your battle to get women's rights recognized in a world of men; it should not be with God who is for equality between men and women and it should not be with Christians who are for the most part, supportive of your claim that in a man's world, women's rights have been abused.


Kind regards
David


All the best,

David

[Rose]

[QUOTE=CWH;42406]

Am I comparing oranges and apples? I am stunned that you do not realized that Osama and his terrorist organization Al Qaieda killed and injured thousands and thousands of people. Families were ruined, properties destroyed, husbands and wives lost, children were also killed in the bombings. And they have other branches and related terrorists groups throughout the world...Jemaiyah Islamiah, Abu Sayab etc. just to name some.

What kind of crazy nonsense are you talking about? I'm the one who introduced the subject of comparing Osama to Moses, they are both terrorists! You are the one who said: "So if the US government told the marines to kill Osama and his men, is it ok? What will happened if the marines ignored the order to kill Osama and his men? Obviously, they will be punished for disobeying the order from the US government and be awarded for obeying the order."

God is not some imaginary concept created by men; one day we will developed so advanced technologically that we will become like God and travel and colonize other worlds throughout the universe.
The people who occupied the lands were evil people that God decided to got rid off (same concept of Iran and many Muslim countries hoping to the wipe Israel from the face of the earth). They have no right to the land that they occupied which were already promised to Abraham long ago before. Those evil people were settling on a land that originally belongs to Abraham and merciful God had allowed them to settle in those lands all those years while hoping that they would change for the better. I see the whole saga like a landlord (God) forcing the evil tenants who refused to leave and have abused the land so that he could rent the land to others more civilized than them. Since God created the world, all lands in the world belongs to him and He have the right to give or rent to whoever he wanted to.

That is just your opinion Cheow, the only proof you have for God is the writings of Bronze Age men in the Bible. Men who thought all sorts of crazy things that have been proven wrong by science. Since you can't prove God created the world then you can't prove all the land belongs to him and you surely can't prove that he gave some of the land to the Hebrews by murdering its inhabitants, all the while ordering the Hebrews to break three of the Ten Commandments he had just given them!

There is actually no such thing as your land or my land; all lands belong to God. I have studied this for decades, have you realized that God have allotted lands to different races and blessed and contained them? The Mongoloid races including the Chinese occupied lands in Asia bounded by the Pacific Ocean to the east, the Gobi desert and high Tibetan mountains to the west and south, the jungles Indo-China to the south and the tundra regions and ice cap in the north. The Negros were confined in much of Middle and South Africa with the Sahara desert to the north, the Indian Ocean to the east and the Atlantic Ocean to the west and Antartica to the south. The Red Indians of North America were confined to the regions around present day USA and Canada, with the tundra regions and ice cap in the north, the Pacific Ocean and the Rockies to the west, the Atlantic Ocean to the east and the jungles of Central America and deserts of California, Mexico to the south. The Europeans were confined by the Atlantic Ocean to the west, the deserts of Central Russia and the deserts of Arabia to the east, the Sahara desert to the south and the tundra regions and ice cap to the north. There seems to be subletting of land to sub-groups of the races contained in their various geographical boundaries, have you wondered why the Japanese occupied the island of Japan? the Indians the sub continent of India?, the aborigines in Australia? the Malays and Melanesians in the Malay Archipelago? the Arabs in Arabia and much of the Middle East? I believe thus that the land of Israel in the Middle East is originally allotted to the Jews which is a subgroup of the Semitic group but has been occupied by different races through the centuries.

May God Blessed our lands.

So, you think this god of the Bible specially chose a certain group of people to give land to that already belonged to someone else, and then left the rest of the people on the planet to get their own land anyway they could, and just hope that Yahweh doesn't take it away from them. How perverse is that?

All the best,
Rose

[Rose]

Hello Rose

It follows CWH's argument, if you were in the army, you would be ordered to kill in the time of war, but you are still expected to live by the civil laws of the land when not at war with the enemy. I have already said; in times of war, God said that the Israelites would be guiltless. They were not allowed to kill at any other time. You still have not admitted the idol worshippers were doing anything wrong in the sight of God. I am looking at this from God's perspective and the rules He laid down. If I look at this from the human perspective, I am inclined to agree with you.
God has given everyone (as far as I know) their human rights to do whatever they want. They can live life they want to, however, no one has the right to attack God's people and subvert God's people. Unless God helped Israel settle in the land He promised to Abraham, do you think the people occupying the land would not have attacked Israel and killed them all? God knew any remnant of these people would pervert His own people. Israel's unfaithfulness to God's instruction resulted in the very thing God knew would happen. Its is a shame you cannot see the lessons God is teaching us by having these horrible events put on record.

Good morning David,

I have already said numerous times it is Yahweh I hold guilty for the crimes of immorality, which is one of the big reasons I can no longer believe that he is the god who created the universe.

Rather than being a shame, I think it shows my humanity and courage to be able to stand up and declare those atrocities in the Bible to be immoral along with the god who spoke them!

I have defended the morality of God. I have stated again why God took the action He did, but you see nothing wrong the practice of idolatry. God will pour out His wrath for all the evil in this world that is happening today, including idolatrous practices. God has not changed His rules. You cannot say you have been warned, or that you did not read the Bible in which this is stated.

I know you have defended the morality of God by saying it is OK to murder men, women and children for the sole purpose of taking their land, taking their virgins, and taking their possessions! Now you say God has not changed his rules, so does that mean all the idol worshipers on the planet are in fear for their lives?

I think your intention is to find fault and you are spiritually blind to the lessons taught and not disposed to reason. It would be good to know in another thread which parts of the Bible you consider contain truth and which parts you do not regard do not contain truth.


If you do not think you get any revelation of God from His word (The Bible as it is today), then all your thoughts are either based on the writings of men or are based on your own thoughts. I think the Bible reflects the cultures God has had to deal with, which have been of man's making. God has not changed, it is man's culture that has changed over the centuries.

As I have said many times, I no longer believe the Bible to be the word of God, so of course I don't receive any revelation from it. I do believe the Bible contains truth, as do many other books, but it also contains a lot of errors and it's up to those who read it to be able to discern between truth and fiction.

You fail to understand the writings of Paul in the way I do and so I cannot agree with your statement.


Unfortunately, man is to blame for all the evil and injustice in this world and it is not surprising when man does not allow God in their lives. Our socitey is based on man and not God. Your battle to get women's rights recognized in a world of men; it should not be with God who is for equality between men and women and it should not be with Christians who are for the most part, supportive of your claim that in a man's world, women's rights have been abused.


Kind regards
David


All the best,

David

Of course, you understand Paul through the eyes of a man who sees nothing wrong with women being in subjection to men. That is why it has always been women who have had to fight for their rights that were taken from them by men who believe that Yahweh put man in the position of rulership over women.

As far as I can tell from the Bible, God does not give women equal human rights with men...anyone who argues otherwise has not read their Bible.

Take care my friend,
Rose

[CWH]

[QUOTE][QUOTE=Rose;42411]

What kind of crazy nonsense are you talking about? I'm the one who introduced the subject of comparing Osama to Moses, they are both terrorists! You are the one who said: "So if the US government told the marines to kill Osama and his men, is it ok? What will happened if the marines ignored the order to kill Osama and his men? Obviously, they will be punished for disobeying the order from the US government and be awarded for obeying the order."

So is the USA. Ask any Muslim and some non-Muslim and they will tell you the US is the greatest terrorist of them all with their incessant involvement in wars in the Middle East and around the world.

That is just your opinion Cheow, the only proof you have for God is the writings of Bronze Age men in the Bible. Men who thought all sorts of crazy things that have been proven wrong by science. Since you can't prove God created the world then you can't prove all the land belongs to him and you surely can't prove that he gave some of the land to the Hebrews by murdering its inhabitants, all the while ordering the Hebrews to break three of the Ten Commandments he had just given them!

That is also your opinion regarding Bronze Age men in the Bible with no solid proof and few support in this forum. Proven wrong by science? Science as I said is the study of God's creation. "Nothing new under the sun" said King Solomon, the wisest man in the OT.

So, you think this god of the Bible specially chose a certain group of people to give land to that already belonged to someone else, and then left the rest of the people on the planet to get their own land anyway they could, and just hope that Yahweh doesn't take it away from them. How perverse is that?

As I said before the land of Israel originally belongs to Abraham. Merciful God allowed other people to occupy the land through the centuries due to Israel's disobedience and sin. Was the land of America belonged to Europeans or did it originally belonged to the Native Indians? Why didn't merciful God punished the European settlers for taking the land by violence and murder?....or do you wish God to punish so?....or perhaps it was God's plan to let the European take over the land of America from the Native Indians so as to make America a great nation?

God Bless America.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

So is the USA. Ask any Muslim and some non-Muslim and they will tell you the US is the greatest terrorist of them all with their incessant involvement in wars in the Middle East and around the world.

So what? How does that justify the evil attributed to God in the Bible?

That is just your opinion Cheow, the only proof you have for God is the writings of Bronze Age men in the Bible. Men who thought all sorts of crazy things that have been proven wrong by science. Since you can't prove God created the world then you can't prove all the land belongs to him and you surely can't prove that he gave some of the land to the Hebrews by murdering its inhabitants, all the while ordering the Hebrews to break three of the Ten Commandments he had just given them!

That is also your opinion regarding Bronze Age men in the Bible with no solid proof and few support in this forum. Proven wrong by science? Science as I said is the study of God's creation. "Nothing new under the sun" said King Solomon, the wisest man in the OT.

That's not true. A massive amount of evidence has been presented in this forum.

Science is not defined as "the study of God's creation." But even if it were, that wouldn't prove that the God of the Bible is the Creator or that the Bible is scientifically accurate.

As I said before the land of Israel originally belongs to Abraham. Merciful God allowed other people to occupy the land through the centuries due to Israel's disobedience and sin. Was the land of America belonged to Europeans or did it originally belonged to the Native Indians? Why didn't merciful God punished the European settlers for taking the land by violence and murder?....or do you wish God to punish so?....or perhaps it was God's plan to let the European take over the land of America from the Native Indians so as to make America a great nation?

Why didn't merciful God punished the European settlers for taking the land by violence and murder? Excellent question. The obvious answer is because that God does not exist. The evils committed in the foundation of the USA (slavery and genocide) proves that it was never a "Christian" country.

[Rose]

That is also your opinion regarding Bronze Age men in the Bible with no solid proof and few support in this forum. Proven wrong by science? Science as I said is the study of God's creation. "Nothing new under the sun" said King Solomon, the wisest man in the OT.

It might be my opinion whether or not God exists, but it most certainly is a fact that the Bible has been proven wrong on many scientific accounts.

As I said before the land of Israel originally belongs to Abraham. Merciful God allowed other people to occupy the land through the centuries due to Israel's disobedience and sin. Was the land of America belonged to Europeans or did it originally belonged to the Native Indians? Why didn't merciful God punished the European settlers for taking the land by violence and murder?....or do you wish God to punish so?....or perhaps it was God's plan to let the European take over the land of America from the Native Indians so as to make America a great nation?

God Bless America.

Just because the Bible says the land belongs to Israel does not mean it actually does. Why should I believe what the Bible says anymore than I should believe what the Koran says?

Rose