A Heaven filled with flesh and bone????

[noble]

Hi Noble,
Jesus resurrected in a physical body. It could be felt and handled he even ate food.
When he ascended the disciples watched him unmanifest before their eyes. In other words in a cloud. They watched him change from matter into spirit and, in the process, beyond what they were able to see.

Ac 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Ac 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

How can you explain a spiritual event to those without spiritual sight? (Us) A cloud is as fine a type of matter as we can picture/imagine. The crossing over from water (visible) to gas (invisible). The transition is a cloud.

He didn't go up in the air and behind a cloud.

Bob

Okay, I see. So would you consider that Jesus materializes back to physical on a fututre return then as He comes back on the cloud?

noble

[Gil]

Howdy Bob and Noble,

It was a cloud of witnesses.
Paul used the term cloud before to mean a Multitude (a great number of).
Can't remember exactly who, those that rose up spiritually whom had slept
in Jesus ( who had already died in the flesh and awaited their Messiah ).
Could also have been those that he had released from prison or both of the above.
If I had to bet my money on it I'd say that they were also the one's who escorted
Jesus to the ancient of ages in his first ascension.

Gil

[Gil]

Howdy Noble,

Noble >
Okay, I see. So would you consider that Jesus materializes back to physical on a fututre return then as He comes back on the cloud?

noble
----------------
Gil >
Some of this what we are talking about may be passing right by you.
All the names of divinity ascribed to the speakers within scripture are almost overwhelming.
Jesus the flesh man died, he is no longer with us.
The resurrection body was Jesus Christ. A spiritual man.
Jesus Christ who was also flesh as soma in a tangible body is not coming back.
As I mentioned above the cloud was not a vapor cloud as we se in the sky, It was a cloud of witnesses, which some may describe as a glory cloud.
He has already returned within the BOC.
Without confusing you further, he has returned physically within the flesh bodies of those called the church.

We are the cloud of witnesses in which he has returned.
Without going into wholes and parts, etc, Christ is a Spirit.
The presence of the Spirit of the Father of Jesus Christ and the presence of the spirit of his son, Jesus Christ are of twain (two) made One Spirit. That Spirit is Christ.
The Spirit which is the Head of the Church is Christ.
It is he who dwells within the individual or the whole.

Better that I leave it at that.
The return of Christ according to Paul was to be accomplished within the completed
BOC.
Some say that the church is the bride of Christ. It is not. The bride had to be a virgin, and was to be of Hebrew /Jewish descent who had through Faith accepted the work of the Father and Son .
The bride was relevant to the first fallen Adam. To their generations. The marriage
was consummated prior to the completion of the BOC.

The BOC was made manifest unto all flesh. there is no distinction made of peoples.


Gil

[Bob May]

Okay, I see. So would you consider that Jesus materializes back to physical on a fututre return then as He comes back on the cloud?

noble

No. Our eyes open so that we see as the disciples see. And,. yes that "cloud of witnesses" also fits perfectly as Gil pointed out.
We join the "cloud" that were witnesses because we too are witnessing it.

(Maybe unlike Gil,???)
I only see it as a future event only inasmuch as we have not witnessed it yet.
And sometimes we witness things we do not fully understand at the time.
20/20 hindsight.
In which case we are certain we witnessed something but have not yet recognised it described in scripture.

So most look at John's revelation as a future event. But was it? Was it future for John or was it happening?
Remember Jesus told him to tarry (wait) "till I come." When Peter asked him
about what he (Jesus) had said to John Jesus basically told Peter to mind his own business.

Spirit and matter are all one thing. It is a continuum. It is our faulty vision and other senses and our flesh mind that keeps us from seeing what is going on around us.

Our sins have separated us from our God.
If that be so, when those sins were taken away and we come to realize that they have been taken away (which may or may not be a gradual realization, depending on our faith) we begin to become aware of things we were not aware of before.
That is what the promises are all about. We look to those and begining to see that life is not what we thought it was. A little at a time and then, all at once. That is how we open up to it. Not because of anything that we do but because God is living up to His promises.

Much of what we find in scripture is allegorical in nature. Allegory is "putting clothes on the real."
Our carnal minds have it backwards.
Adam and Eve got coats of skins after the fall.

We are on our way back taking those clothes off as it were. Uncovering the Real behind the temporary and apparent.

That great "cloud of witnesses" all died in faith not having recieved the promise. That is no longer the case.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Heb 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,


Bob

[Brother Les]

Howdy Bob and Noble,

It was a cloud of witnesses.
Paul used the term cloud before to mean a Multitude (a great number of).
Can't remember exactly who, those that rose up spiritually whom had slept
in Jesus ( who had already died in the flesh and awaited their Messiah ).
Could also have been those that he had released from prison or both of the above.
If I had to bet my money on it I'd say that they were also the one's who escorted
Jesus to the ancient of ages in his first ascension.

Gil

Acts 1:9 , A 'Cloud of Witness'.... that is a new one to hear on that verse.....

Those that died in the flesh were never in heaven at the time of His acension, they were all in Sheol and in Sheol they would stay (as all who physically died) until the (second) Coming, in Judgement.

Hebrews 9:28
1 Thess 4:16-18
Acts 2:22-35
Rev 6:9-11
Rev 7:13-14

When Jesus Christ was in Sheol administering to the Saints in Abraham bosom, was He Resurrected from The Death? Was He Spirtually Dead? For those in Sheol would have been Judged up to that time both physicall Dead and Spiritually Dead as prescribed by The Law of Moses because the 'Final Judgement' was yet to be administered. If He was not both physicall and spirituall dead on The Cross, then He did not fulfill the requirements of the Perfect Sacrifice. When was His Spiritual Resurrection? His Physical Resurrection was ONLY to satisfy of 'show us a sign' (Matt 12:36-42, Luke 29:30-31)and He said that the ONLY sign that you shall receive is the 'sign of Jonas'. But remember also that the 'sign' of Jonas' was not only the three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish.... it was also tied with the judgment on Ninevah. When did that happen?

[noble]

Hi forum,

Thanks to all for your responses.

This topic of what body Jesus left in obviously isn't cut and dry. In John 2, Jesus tells us He was going to raise His 'temple' up which would be His healthy body at the time He referred to it as THIS temple. Then of course there is the flesh and bones situation of Luke 24 . Somewhere in here we have to allow for His God bod which He was in for x billion years. So which was He in when He left and which will He return in????

I have a theory I would like to pass by you all and get your comments. What could work in this theory, what can't or is it just plain hooey all around!

Jesus was transfigured??? Whoopie ding, what does transfigured mean? He was transfigured from what , to what?
Strongs defines the word 'transfigured' as:

1) to change into another form, to transform, to transfigure
a) Christ appearance was changed and was resplendent with divine brightness on the mount of transfiguration

Could Jesus have been changed from man to God? Could Jesus have been transfigured to being fully God BUT remaining here on earth in the earth body He was born in. That would explain why the physical earth body of Jesus was not in the tomb. That would mean that at the cross the man formally ceased to exist and the full God emerged, totally invisible to mortal man. Acts 10:40 in the NASB would tend to verify that idea:

40 God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,

The only other scriptural hint I can think of is that Jesus should have been naked because His clothes had been taken from Him at the cross and His grave clothes lay in the tomb. Somehow, somewhere in the bible I thought it said that Jesus was in a pure white robe, but I can't find it now.

Anway, as sketchy as this is, what comments does anyone have on this theory?

noble

[Bob May]

Hi forum,

Thanks to all for your responses.

This topic of what body Jesus left in obviously isn't cut and dry. In John 2, Jesus tells us He was going to raise His 'temple' up which would be His healthy body at the time He referred to it as THIS temple. Then of course there is the flesh and bones situation of Luke 24 . Somewhere in here we have to allow for His God bod which He was in for x billion years. So which was He in when He left and which will He return in????

I have a theory I would like to pass by you all and get your comments. What could work in this theory, what can't or is it just plain hooey all around!

Jesus was transfigured??? Whoopie ding, what does transfigured mean? He was transfigured from what , to what?
Strongs defines the word 'transfigured' as:

1) to change into another form, to transform, to transfigure
a) Christ appearance was changed and was resplendent with divine brightness on the mount of transfiguration

Could Jesus have been changed from man to God? Could Jesus have been transfigured to being fully God BUT remaining here on earth in the earth body He was born in. That would explain why the physical earth body of Jesus was not in the tomb. That would mean that at the cross the man formally ceased to exist and the full God emerged, totally invisible to mortal man. Acts 10:40 in the NASB would tend to verify that idea:

40 God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,

The only other scriptural hint I can think of is that Jesus should have been naked because His clothes had been taken from Him at the cross and His grave clothes lay in the tomb. Somehow, somewhere in the bible I thought it said that Jesus was in a pure white robe, but I can't find it now.

Anway, as sketchy as this is, what comments does anyone have on this theory?

noble

Hi noble, I don't think you are too far from the truth. A body of light. Paul also saw him in a seemingly similar way after the resurrection. When Martha told Jesus that she belived in the resurrection he said to her,"I am the resrrection"and then brought her brother back from the dead. Jesus' phsical body dissappeared from the tomb but when did that happen? when Mary saw him at the tomb she did not recognize him. Neither did the men on the road to emmaus or peter from his boat for that matter. I think that the transfiguration may have been a preview of the resurrection body. Paul pretty much comes right out and says that the resurrection body is a body of light. Nothing like the corruptible body. It' all a bit confusing but i think all of the pieces willfall into place and we will see him as he is and when we do we will be like him. He appeared to me once during prayer. I would equate it with the transfiguration, not the second coming. But it was a body composed of light. Bob

[David M]

Hi Noble,
Jesus resurrected in a physical body. It could be felt and handled he even ate food.
When he ascended the disciples watched him unmanifest before their eyes. In other words in a cloud. They watched him change from matter into spirit and, in the process, beyond what they were able to see.

Ac 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Ac 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

How can you explain a spiritual event to those without spiritual sight? (Us) A cloud is as fine a type of matter as we can picture/imagine. The crossing over from water (visible) to gas (invisible). The transition is a cloud.

He didn't go up in the air and behind a cloud.

Bob

Hello Bob

You make a good point, but what about the return of Jesus, and his appearance on earth again? Do you see this as a reversal of what you are saying?

I will add some thoughts for consideration.

The body of Jesus appears to have gone through some sort of transformation, even if we do not know for sure how different his new incorruptible body is from the old corruptible body that he had.

We can quote the apostle Paul, tells us; (1 Cor 15:52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
We speculate what the exact physical/material changes took place with Jesus and what will take place in the future.

My belief is that the future kingdom of God is upon this earth. The earth will continue as God has made it. The future of mankind is on this earth. Why would it be anywhere else, if God has planned that the earth will be filled with His Glory? This is the purpose of God as He declared.


Before we get into realms of fantasy, of what is meant by a spiritual body ( keeping in mind the difference between earthly and heavenly) I would like to point out that there have been instances of where a body of flesh and blood has been transported through the air in a moment of time. The example of Peter is one when it appears from the text he was transported to another place by this means (Acts 8:39,40 ).

Jesus, after the resurrection did appear to materialize in a locked room. To do this, it takes something like or the power of the Holy Spirit to do it. Maybe this is more the power of the Elohim at work instead of an innate power of the mind to do this at will. Jesus still had the power of the Holy Spirit available to him. It might be in the millennium age that the saints who will be sent from one place to another by such means will be sent by the Holy Spirit acting in this way. This is reasonable speculation based on what has been revealed to us by God's word.

If the intended place of all those resurrected is here on earth, I do not see any reason long-term to require the need for self-transportation at our own will in the way Jesus was seen to pass through solid walls. This was a means given to him by request for the Holy Spirit to act. We must also keep in mind that Jesus proved he would not call upon the Holy Spirit for any other purpose than to do God's will. If the saints (resurrected people) are here on the earth, their body can still consist of dust (earth). There is no reason not to believe that the incorruptible body will not be made of the same material as the body we have now. The main distiction is between our nature that is corruptible and that which is incorruptible.

Consider that if Adam had not sinned, he would not have died. This means he would have lived for ever in the body that he was made in which was of dust. Either God would have had to change his body, to give Adam incorruption or God would have had to continually heal Adam. Eating of the tree of life, would have meant Adam lived forever, and God could not allow that after Adam had failed and so was under the curse of death. Access to the tree of life was barred.

Jesus said to Thomas to thrust his hand into his side so we can conclude from this that the body of Jesus after he was resurrected was solid. The body of Jesus did not appear to be different externally. I conclude that the body of Jesus could be made of the same material (atoms, molecules, etc), allbeit we do not know the internal changes that might have taken place. Otherwise, we have to conclude the material is nothing like on earth, and not subject to gravitational forces etc and that opens up another line of discussion.

We know that Jesus dined with his disciples after his resurrection; we are not told he ate. We can assume Jesus ate and was able to metabolize the food he ate. Again, if our intended place is here on earth and we are to enjoy God's creation in the way that Adam was to enjoy it before the curse came on Adam and the ground was cursed in the process, there is nothing to stop us assuming that in the kingdom the saints will not enjoy food in the same was as we enjoy food now. One think we know that will different is; sin and the consequence of sin will not exist anymore in the kingdom, pain, sufferring, crying, and death will have all been done away with.

This is the end of my immediate thoughts on this topic.


David

[David M]

The Death, burial, resurrection, transfiguration was a one of a kind.
Never before or never after to happen again.

Gil

Hi Gil
Is the quote above what you are really saying? Take out the transfiguration, which is separate to death burial and resurrction and then you have to square what you are saying with what Paul writes and gives us the same hope that he had. I have no reason to believe that as God's messenger to the Gentiles, Paul spoke nothing but the truth which had been revealed to him.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

David

[noble]

Hi Bob May;

Hi noble, I don't think you are too far from the truth. A body of light. Paul also saw him in a seemingly similar way after the resurrection. When Martha told Jesus that she belived in the resurrection he said to her,"I am the resrrection"and then brought her brother back from the dead. Jesus' phsical body dissappeared from the tomb but when did that happen? when Mary saw him at the tomb she did not recognize him. Neither did the men on the road to emmaus or peter from his boat for that matter. I think that the transfiguration may have been a preview of the resurrection body. Paul pretty much comes right out and says that the resurrection body is a body of light. Nothing like the corruptible body. It' all a bit confusing but i think all of the pieces willfall into place and we will see him as he is and when we do we will be like him. He appeared to me once during prayer. I would equate it with the transfiguration, not the second coming. But it was a body composed of light.

Yes, the bible says we will see Him like He is.

I keep coming back to that transfiguration as being the reason the physical earthly body is no where to be found, but have never found a verse which locks that in.
Jesus tells us He is going to raise THIS temple in JOhn 2 so somehow He would have to raise THAT body, but how did He do it? I can't see Jesus returning to be God in Heaven if He is going there in a restrictive earth type body. BUT again no specific verse to justify that. The question is a biggee in that the physical earth body of Jesus (John 2) is NOT in the tomb and I can not find the versse which says WHERE that earth body is.
Anybody got any further ideas on any of this?

noble