Double Metaphor? (Satan / Dragon)

[Beck]

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

We know from this scriptures that principalities, powers and rulers of darkness are not flesh and blood.

Who then, are they?

Rick

I would term it as Paul said that the saints where fighting not against men of flesh and blood, but against men in high places of authority with evil spirits that have power of darkness or the lack ot the true knowledge of God.

So in that respect Paul is claiming that the battle isn't against men and their flesh and blood, but men and the evil spirits. The reasons Paul told them to put on the whole armour of God is that to shield oneself from the fiery darts of the wicked. It is as if those wicked men had fire coming out of their mouths to consume them. These were men in high places of authority.

What had Paul just mentioned to the saints about obedience to them that are your master according to the flesh?

[Charisma]

Hi Richard,

I agree that the Bible presents Satan as a personal being.

Rick preceded the 'personal' statement with this: that Satan is a 'spirit-being'. In light of, 'Of course, that's one of the many points where the Bible and I part ways', previously you've completely rejected 'spirit-being' as an entity per se, so do you at all acknowledge the existence of Satan at all?

I think Paul beleived there were heirarchies of spiritual powers,

There are hierarchies of spiritual powers. He was correct.

[QUOTE]and some of them went bad, like fallen angels, [QUOTE]Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

By simple deduction, (and scripture), your association with deception lays you open to be deceived. Be careful, brother.

and we were trapped in a battle between the good and evil spiritual forces.

Believers in Jesus Christ aren't trapped anywhere.

They might be in a battle, but they are free, and in Jesus Christ they stand in His victory.



The Bible didn't part ways with you. You parted ways with truth. But that could be a temporary experiment, if you intend to be honest.

[Charisma]

Hi Bob,

I was merely commenting on beck's question of whether or not it was possible that there were double metaphors used in scripture.
Allegory is used throughout scripture and Jesus' ministry actually happened, yet he was also acting out an allegory.

You need the Spirit to undestand scripture.
It was written allegorically. So you need to understand at least some allegory in order to understand it.

I agree with all this. (That doesn't mean to say I disagree with the rest of your post. I think this statement if all true, but we have to remember that Jesus IS the Lamb of God, not merely an allegory for it.)

But if all you are doing is reading it allegorically or literally without the Spirit you will never understand it.

Indeed. Natural understanding will always fall short of the revelation of and by God's mind to our inner faculty for knowing truth.

[Beck]

Hi Beck,

I'm not sure if you're understanding what a metaphor is, merely a figure of speech. There is no 'symbol' involved.

I grant you that common English usage may have warped the term 'metaphor', so that your question is colloquially valid, but you might be better to stick with 'symbol', if you believe the red dragon is not 'real'.

It's not a metaphor. It may be a symbol.

It may not be a symbol. Spiritually speaking, I see it as 'real', yes.

Would you say that the 'horns' of the beast is a symbol or a metaphor of power?

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.


Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.


Therefore the metaphor is the comparison of a red dragon having seven heads and tail to that of satan the devil. Like I would say to some here are 'night owls' meaning they stay up very late, but that don't mean that they are a night owl.

[Charisma]

I would term it as Paul said that the saints where fighting not against men of flesh and blood, but against men in high places of authority with evil spirits that have power of darkness or the lack ot the true knowledge of God.

So in that respect Paul is claiming that the battle isn't against men and their flesh and blood, but men and the evil spirits. The reasons Paul told them to put on the whole armour of God is that to shield oneself from the fiery darts of the wicked. It is as if those wicked men had fire coming out of their mouths to consume them. These were men in high places of authority.

What had Paul just mentioned to the saints about obedience to them that are your master according to the flesh?

Hi Beck,

men of flesh and blood, but against men in high places of authority

So are you saying that the 'men in high places of authority' don't have 'flesh and blood'?

If you aren't, then what you wrote there doesn't make sense.

Because, Paul said in 2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more. 17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

It's on that basis too, that 'we wrestle not against flesh and blood'; the whole battle is engaged by the exercise of spiritual weaponry.

It is as if those wicked men had fire coming out of their mouths to consume them. These were men in high places of authority.

Maybe so, but even the OT saint had this at his disposal:

Psalm 97:1 The LORD reigneth; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad [thereof]. 2 Clouds and darkness [are] round about him: righteousness and judgment [are] the habitation of his throne. {habitation: or, establishment} 3 A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about. 4 His lightnings enlightened the world: the earth saw, and trembled. 5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the LORD, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth. 6 The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory. 7 Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols: worship him, all [ye] gods.

[Beck]

Hi Beck,

So are you saying that the 'men in high places of authority' don't have 'flesh and blood'?

No, you missing the point. Paul is telling those saints that it's a spiritual warfare rather than a physical flesh and blood. If the kingdom of God was in the physical, then yes those saints would take up sword for battle, but it's not the kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom. So Paul tells them to put on the whole armour of God to shield off those evil darts of deception. That is the only way those darts would be able to consume them,that is by deception.

At this time in Ephesians some of the saints where still slaves to a master. If they refused to obey their master they would be punished. Paul was telling them to obey their master in Christ even if that master is under the power of darkness. (Not knowing Christ).

Maybe so, but even the OT saint had this at his disposal:

Psalm 97:1 The LORD reigneth; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad [thereof]. 2 Clouds and darkness [are] round about him: righteousness and judgment [are] the habitation of his throne. {habitation: or, establishment} 3 A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about. 4 His lightnings enlightened the world: the earth saw, and trembled. 5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the LORD, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth. 6 The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory. 7 Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols: worship him, all [ye] gods.

Even so, but their was always the possiblty of being persecuted and punished. That 'fire' is their words as a light into a dark world, but there is still that possiblty of death.

[heb13-13]

Paul, evidently knew high places are associated with devils.

2Ch 11:15 And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.

Why didn't they say men or flesh instead of devils?

Lev 17:7 And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.

Deu 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

Psa 106:37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,

We know they were not sacrificing to men because never once are any specific men noted.

Rick

[Beck]

[SIZE=2]Paul, evidently knew high places are associated with devils.

2Ch 11:15 And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.

Why didn't they say men or flesh instead of devils?

Becasue they are dealing with the 'spirit' of man rather than flesh and blood. The translation of devil is spirit. (ie evil spirit)
The high places can be interperated as a 'mountain' where authority is sat upon. Jesus mentioned to his disciples that if they had faith that they could move 'this mountain' as cast it into the sea.

Likewise Paul told the the ephesians that they were rasied up to sit together in high places (heavenly) in Christ Jesus. In a sence removing that mountain of authority and themselve made as priest to sit in those high places.

[heb13-13]

I would term it as Paul said that the saints where fighting not against men of flesh and blood, but against men in high places of authority with evil spirits that have power of darkness or the lack ot the true knowledge of God.

Paul did not say men in high places, did he? In fact, he differentiated between men (flesh an blood) and evil spirits.

So in that respect Paul is claiming that the battle isn't against men and their flesh and blood, but men and the evil spirits. The reasons Paul told them to put on the whole armour of God is that to shield oneself from the fiery darts of the wicked. It is as if those wicked men had fire coming out of their mouths to consume them. These were men in high places of authority.

What had Paul just mentioned to the saints about obedience to them that are your master according to the flesh?

Beck, your reasoning does not make sense since Christians can be persecuted by men who have no authority. And we do not fight with men, period! Flesh and blood means man and that includes their spirit, otherwise they would just be an empty container. The Bible differentiates between evil spirits and man many times.

High places cannot mean man-made authority since Christians are persecuted by many who have no special authority.

In conclusion, flesh and blood refers to the whole man including his soul and spirit because it would be ridiculous for Paul to tell Christians that they don't fight with a human body all by itself without their spirit.

Rick

[heb13-13]

I would term it as Paul said that the saints where fighting not against men of flesh and blood, but against men in high places of authority with evil spirits that have power of darkness or the lack ot the true knowledge of God.

Paul did not say men in high places, did he? In fact, he differentiated between men (flesh an blood) and evil spirits.

So in that respect Paul is claiming that the battle isn't against men and their flesh and blood, but men and the evil spirits. The reasons Paul told them to put on the whole armour of God is that to shield oneself from the fiery darts of the wicked. It is as if those wicked men had fire coming out of their mouths to consume them. These were men in high places of authority.

What had Paul just mentioned to the saints about obedience to them that are your master according to the flesh?

Beck, your reasoning does not make sense since Christians can be persecuted by men who have no authority. And we do not fight with men, period! Flesh and blood means man and that includes their spirit, otherwise they would just be an empty container. The Bible differentiates between evil spirits and man many times.

High places cannot mean man-made authority since Christians are persecuted by many who have no special authority.

In conclusion, flesh and blood refers to the whole man including his soul and spirit because it would be ridiculous for Paul to tell Christians that they don't fight with a human body all by itself without their spirit.

Rick